Burnet (OCT, 1902) · Shorey (1930)
Shorey (1930)
449a Ἀγαθὴν μὲν τοίνυν τὴν τοιαύτην πόλιν τε καὶ πολιτείαν
καὶ ὀρθὴν καλῶ, καὶ ἄνδρα τὸν τοιοῦτον· κακὰς δὲ τὰς ἄλλας
καὶ ἡμαρτημένας, εἴπερ αὕτη ὀρθή, περί τε πόλεων διοικήσεις
καὶ περὶ ἰδιωτῶν ψυχῆς τρόπου κατασκευήν, ἐν τέτταρσι
πονηρίας εἴδεσιν οὔσας.
To such a city, then, or constitution I apply the terms good and right—and to the corresponding kind of man; but the others I describe as bad and mistaken, if this one is right, in respect both to the administration of states and to the formation of the character of the individual soul, they falling under four forms of badness.
Ποίας δὴ ταύτας; ἔφη.
What are these, he said.
Καὶ ἐγὼ μὲν ᾖα τὰς ἐφεξῆς ἐρῶν, ὥς μοι ἐφαίνοντο
449b ἕκασται ἐξ ἀλλήλων μεταβαίνειν· ὁ δὲ Πολέμαρχος—
σμικρὸν γὰρ ἀπωτέρω τοῦ Ἀδειμάντου καθῆστο—ἐκτείνας
τὴν χεῖρα καὶ λαβόμενος τοῦ ἱματίου ἄνωθεν αὐτοῦ παρὰ
τὸν ὦμον, ἐκεῖνόν τε προσηγάγετο καὶ προτείνας ἑαυτὸν
ἔλεγεν ἄττα προσκεκυφώς, ὧν ἄλλο μὲν οὐδὲν κατηκούσαμεν,
τόδε δέ· Ἀφήσομεν οὖν, ἔφη, ἢ τί δράσομεν;
And I was going on to enumerate them in what seemed to me the order of their evolution from one another, when Polemarchus—he sat at some little distance from Adeimantus—stretched forth his hand, and, taking hold of his garment from above by the shoulder, drew the other toward him and, leaning forward himself, spoke a few words in his ear, of which we overheard nothing else save only this, Shall we let him off, then, he said, or what shall we do?
Ἥκιστά γε, ἔφη ὁ Ἀδείμαντος μέγα ἤδη λέγων.
By no means, said Adeimantus, now raising his voice.
Καὶ ἐγώ, Τί μάλιστα, ἔφην, ὑμεῖς οὐκ ἀφίετε;
What, pray, said I, is it that you are not letting off?
Σέ, ἦ δ' ὅς.
You, said he.
449c Ὅτι, ἐγὼ εἶπον, τί μάλιστα;
And for what reason, pray? said I.
Ἀπορρᾳθυμεῖν ἡμῖν δοκεῖς, ἔφη, καὶ εἶδος ὅλον οὐ τὸ
ἐλάχιστον ἐκκλέπτειν τοῦ λόγου ἵνα μὴ διέλθῃς, καὶ λήσειν
οἰηθῆναι εἰπὼν αὐτὸ φαύλως, ὡς ἄρα περὶ γυναικῶν τε καὶ
παίδων παντὶ δῆλον ὅτι κοινὰ τὰ φίλων ἔσται.
We think you are a slacker, he said, and are trying to cheat us out of a whole division, and that not the least, of the argument to avoid the trouble of expounding it, and expect to get away with it by observing thus lightly that, of course, in respect to women and children it is obvious to everybody that the possessions of friends will be in common.
Οὐκοῦν ὀρθῶς, ἔφην, ὦ Ἀδείμαντε;
Well, isn’t that right, Adeimantus? I said.
Ναί, ἦ δ' ὅς. ἀλλὰ τὸ ὀρθῶς τοῦτο, ὥσπερ τἆλλα, λόγου
δεῖται τίς ὁ τρόπος τῆς κοινωνίας· πολλοὶ γὰρ ἂν γένοιντο.
449d μὴ οὖν παρῇς ὅντινα σὺ λέγεις· ὡς ἡμεῖς πάλαι περιμένομεν
οἰόμενοί σέ που μνησθήσεσθαι παιδοποιίας τε πέρι, πῶς
παιδοποιήσονται, καὶ γενομένους πῶς θρέψουσιν, καὶ ὅλην
ταύτην ἣν λέγεις κοινωνίαν γυναικῶν τε καὶ παίδων· μέγα
γάρ τι οἰόμεθα φέρειν καὶ ὅλον εἰς πολιτείαν ὀρθῶς ἢ μὴ
ὀρθῶς γιγνόμενον. νῦν οὖν, ἐπειδὴ ἄλλης ἐπιλαμβάνῃ
πολιτείας πρὶν ταῦτα ἱκανῶς διελέσθαι, δέδοκται ἡμῖν τοῦτο
450a ὃ σὺ ἤκουσας, τὸ σὲ μὴ μεθιέναι πρὶν ἂν ταῦτα πάντα ὥσπερ
τἆλλα διέλθῃς.
Yes, said he, but this word right, like other things, requires defining as to the way and manner of such a community. There might be many ways. Don’t, then, pass over the one that you have in mind. For we have long been lying in wait for you, expecting that you would say something both of the procreation of children and their bringing up, and would explain the whole matter of the community of women and children of which you speak. We think that the right or wrong management of this makes a great difference, all the difference in the world, in the constitution of a state;
so now, since you are beginning on another constitution before sufficiently defining this, we are firmly resolved, as you overheard, not to let you go till you have expounded all this as fully as you did the rest.
Καὶ ἐμὲ τοίνυν, ὁ Γλαύκων ἔφη, κοινωνὸν τῆς ψήφου
ταύτης τίθετε.
Set me down, too, said Glaucon, as voting this ticket.
Ἀμέλει, ἔφη ὁ Θρασύμαχος, πᾶσι ταῦτα δεδογμένα ἡμῖν
νόμιζε, ὦ Σώκρατες.
Surely, said Thrasymachus, you may consider it a joint resolution of us all, Socrates.
Οἷον, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, εἰργάσασθε ἐπιλαβόμενοί μου. ὅσον
λόγον πάλιν, ὥσπερ ἐξ ἀρχῆς, κινεῖτε περὶ τῆς πολιτείας·
ἣν ὡς ἤδη διεληλυθὼς ἔγωγε ἔχαιρον, ἀγαπῶν εἴ τις ἐάσοι
ταῦτα ἀποδεξάμενος ὡς τότε ἐρρήθη. ἃ νῦν ὑμεῖς παρακαλοῦντες
450b οὐκ ἴστε ὅσον ἑσμὸν λόγων ἐπεγείρετε· ὃν ὁρῶν
ἐγὼ παρῆκα τότε, μὴ παράσχοι πολὺν ὄχλον.
What a thing you have done, said I, in thus challenging me! What a huge debate you have started afresh, as it were, about this polity, in the supposed completion of which I was rejoicing, being only too glad to have it accepted as I then set it forth! You don’t realize what a swarm of arguments you are stirring up by this demand, which I foresaw and evaded to save us no end of trouble.
Τί δέ; ἦ δ' ὃς ὁ Θρασύμαχος· χρυσοχοήσοντας οἴει
τούσδε νῦν ἐνθάδε ἀφῖχθαι, ἀλλ' οὐ λόγων ἀκουσομένους;
Well, said Thrasymachus, do you suppose this company has come here to prospect for gold and not to listen to discussions?
Ναί, εἶπον, μετρίων γε.
Yes, I said, in measure.
Μέτρον δέ γ', ἔφη, ὦ Σώκρατες, ὁ Γλαύκων, τοιούτων
λόγων ἀκούειν ὅλος ὁ βίος νοῦν ἔχουσιν. ἀλλὰ τὸ μὲν
ἡμέτερον ἔα· σὺ δὲ περὶ ὧν ἐρωτῶμεν μηδαμῶς ἀποκάμῃς ᾗ
450c σοι δοκεῖ διεξιών, τίς ἡ κοινωνία τοῖς φύλαξιν ἡμῖν παίδων
τε πέρι καὶ γυναικῶν ἔσται καὶ τροφῆς νέων ἔτι ὄντων, τῆς
ἐν τῷ μεταξὺ χρόνῳ γιγνομένης γενέσεώς τε καὶ παιδείας,
ἣ δὴ ἐπιπονωτάτη δοκεῖ εἶναι. πειρῶ οὖν εἰπεῖν τίνα
τρόπον δεῖ γίγνεσθαι αὐτήν.
Nay, Socrates, said Glaucon, the measure of listening to such discussions is the whole of life for reasonable men. So don’t consider us, and do not you yourself grow weary in explaining to us what we ask or, your views as to how this communion of wives and children among our guardians will be managed, and also about the rearing of the children while still young in the interval between birth and formal schooling which is thought to be the most difficult part of education. Try, then, to tell us what must be the manner of it.
Οὐ ῥᾴδιον, ὦ εὔδαιμον, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, διελθεῖν· πολλὰς γὰρ
ἀπιστίας ἔχει ἔτι μᾶλλον τῶν ἔμπροσθεν ὧν διήλθομεν.
καὶ γὰρ ὡς δυνατὰ λέγεται, ἀπιστοῖτ' ἄν, καὶ εἰ ὅτι μάλιστα
γένοιτο, ὡς ἄριστ' ἂν εἴη ταῦτα, καὶ ταύτῃ ἀπιστήσεται.
450d διὸ δὴ καὶ ὄκνος τις αὐτῶν ἅπτεσθαι, μὴ εὐχὴ δοκῇ εἶναι ὁ
λόγος, ὦ φίλε ἑταῖρε.
It is not an easy thing to expound, my dear fellow, said I, for even more than the provisions that precede it, it raises many doubts. For one might doubt whether what is proposed is possible and, even conceding the possibility, one might still be sceptical whether it is best. For which reason one as it were, shrinks from touching on the matter lest the theory be regarded as nothing but a wish-thought, my dear friend.
Μηδέν, ἦ δ' ὅς, ὄκνει· οὔτε γὰρ ἀγνώμονες οὔτε ἄπιστοι
οὔτε δύσνοι οἱ ἀκουσόμενοι.
Do not shrink, he said, for your hearers will not be inconsiderate nor distrustful nor hostile.
Καὶ ἐγὼ εἶπον· Ὦ ἄριστε, ἦ που βουλόμενός με παραθαρρύνειν
λέγεις;
And I said, My good fellow, is that remark intended to encourage me?
Ἔγωγ', ἔφη.
It is, he said.
Πᾶν τοίνυν, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, τοὐναντίον ποιεῖς. πιστεύοντος
μὲν γὰρ ἐμοῦ ἐμοὶ εἰδέναι ἃ λέγω, καλῶς εἶχεν ἡ παραμυθία·
ἐν γὰρ φρονίμοις τε καὶ φίλοις περὶ τῶν μεγίστων τε καὶ
450e φίλων τἀληθῆ εἰδότα λέγειν ἀσφαλὲς καὶ θαρραλέον, ἀπιστοῦντα
δὲ καὶ ζητοῦντα ἅμα τοὺς λόγους ποιεῖσθαι, ὃ δὴ
451a ἐγὼ δρῶ, φοβερόν τε καὶ σφαλερόν, οὔ τι γέλωτα ὀφλεῖν—
παιδικὸν γὰρ τοῦτό γε—ἀλλὰ μὴ σφαλεὶς τῆς ἀληθείας οὐ
μόνον αὐτὸς ἀλλὰ καὶ τοὺς φίλους συνεπισπασάμενος κείσομαι
περὶ ἃ ἥκιστα δεῖ σφάλλεσθαι. προσκυνῶ δὲ Ἀδράστειαν,
ὦ Γλαύκων, χάριν οὗ μέλλω λέγειν· ἐλπίζω γὰρ
οὖν ἔλαττον ἁμάρτημα ἀκουσίως τινὸς φονέα γενέσθαι ἢ
ἀπατεῶνα καλῶν τε καὶ ἀγαθῶν καὶ δικαίων νομίμων πέρι.
τοῦτο οὖν τὸ κινδύνευμα κινδυνεύειν ἐν ἐχθροῖς κρεῖττον ἢ
451b φίλοις, ὥστε εὖ με παραμυθῇ.
Well, then, said I, it has just the contrary effect. For, if I were confident that I was speaking with knowledge, it would be an excellent encouragement. For there is both safety and security in speaking the truth with knowledge about our greatest and dearest concerns to those who are both wise and dear.
But to speak when one doubts himself and is seeking while he talks is a fearful and slippery venture. The fear is not of being laughed at, for that is childish, but, lest, missing the truth, I fall down and drag my friends with me in matters where it most imports not to stumble. So I salute Nemesis, Glaucon, in what I am about to say. For, indeed, I believe that involuntary homicide is a lesser fault than to mislead opinion about the honorable, the good, and the just. This is a risk that it is better to run with enemies than with friends, so that your encouragement is none.
Καὶ ὁ Γλαύκων γελάσας, Ἀλλ', ὦ Σώκρατες, ἔφη, ἐάν τι
πάθωμεν πλημμελὲς ὑπὸ τοῦ λόγου, ἀφίεμέν σε ὥσπερ
φόνου καὶ καθαρὸν εἶναι καὶ μὴ ἀπατεῶνα ἡμῶν. ἀλλὰ
θαρρήσας λέγε.
And Glaucon, with a laugh, said, Nay, Socrates, if any false note in the argument does us any harm, we release you as in a homicide case, and warrant you pure of hand and no deceiver of us. So speak on with confidence.
Ἀλλὰ μέντοι, εἶπον, καθαρός γε καὶ ἐκεῖ ὁ ἀφεθείς, ὡς
ὁ νόμος λέγει· εἰκὸς δέ γε, εἴπερ ἐκεῖ, κἀνθάδε.
Well, said I, he who is released in that case is counted pure as the law bids, and, presumably, if there, here too.
Λέγε τοίνυν, ἔφη, τούτου γ' ἕνεκα.
Speak on, then, he said, for all this objection.
Λέγειν δή, ἔφην ἐγώ, χρὴ ἀνάπαλιν αὖ νῦν, ἃ τότε ἴσως
451c ἔδει ἐφεξῆς λέγειν· τάχα δὲ οὕτως ἂν ὀρθῶς ἔχοι, μετὰ
ἀνδρεῖον δρᾶμα παντελῶς διαπερανθὲν τὸ γυναικεῖον αὖ
περαίνειν, ἄλλως τε καὶ ἐπειδὴ σὺ οὕτω προκαλῇ.
We must return then, said I, and say now what perhaps ought to have been said in due sequence there.
Ἀνθρώποις γὰρ φῦσι καὶ παιδευθεῖσιν ὡς ἡμεῖς διήλθομεν,
κατ' ἐμὴν δόξαν οὐκ ἔστ' ἄλλη ὀρθὴ παίδων τε καὶ
γυναικῶν κτῆσίς τε καὶ χρεία ἢ κατ' ἐκείνην τὴν ὁρμὴν
ἰοῦσιν, ἥνπερ τὸ πρῶτον ὡρμήσαμεν· ἐπεχειρήσαμεν δέ
που ὡς ἀγέλης φύλακας τοὺς ἄνδρας καθιστάναι τῷ λόγῳ.
But maybe this way is right, that after the completion of the male drama we should in turn go through with the female, especially since you are so urgent.
For men, then, born and bred as we described there is in my opinion no other right possession and use of children and women than that which accords with the start we gave them. Our endeavor, I believe, was to establish these men in our discourse as the guardians of a flock?
Ναί.
Yes.
451d Ἀκολουθῶμεν τοίνυν καὶ τὴν γένεσιν καὶ τροφὴν παραπλησίαν
ἀποδιδόντες, καὶ σκοπῶμεν εἰ ἡμῖν πρέπει ἢ οὔ.
Let us preserve the analogy, then, and assign them a generation and breeding answering to it, and see if it suits us or not.
Πῶς; ἔφη.
In what way? he said. In this.
Ὧδε. τὰς θηλείας τῶν φυλάκων κυνῶν πότερα συμφυλάττειν
οἰόμεθα δεῖν ἅπερ ἂν οἱ ἄρρενες φυλάττωσι καὶ
συνθηρεύειν καὶ τἆλλα κοινῇ πράττειν, ἢ τὰς μὲν οἰκουρεῖν
ἔνδον ὡς ἀδυνάτους διὰ τὸν τῶν σκυλάκων τόκον τε καὶ
τροφήν, τοὺς δὲ πονεῖν τε καὶ πᾶσαν ἐπιμέλειαν ἔχειν περὶ
τὰ ποίμνια;
Do we expect the females of watch-dogs to join in guarding what the males guard and to hunt with them and share all their pursuits or do we expect the females to stay indoors as being incapacitated by the bearing and the breeding of the whelps while the males toil and have all the care of the flock?
451e Κοινῇ, ἔφη, πάντα· πλὴν ὡς ἀσθενεστέραις χρώμεθα,
τοῖς δὲ ὡς ἰσχυροτέροις.
They have all things in common, he replied, except that we treat the females as weaker and the males as stronger.
Οἷόν τ' οὖν, ἔφην ἐγώ, ἐπὶ τὰ αὐτὰ χρῆσθαί τινι ζῴῳ, ἂν
μὴ τὴν αὐτὴν τροφήν τε καὶ παιδείαν ἀποδιδῷς;
Is it possible, then, said I, to employ any creature for the same ends as another if you do not assign it the same nurture and education?
Οὐχ οἷόν τε.
It is not possible.
Εἰ ἄρα ταῖς γυναιξὶν ἐπὶ ταὐτὰ χρησόμεθα καὶ τοῖς
ἀνδράσι, ταὐτὰ καὶ διδακτέον αὐτάς.
If, then, we are to use the women for the same things as the men, we must also teach them the same things.
452a Ναί.
Yes.
Μουσικὴ μὴν ἐκείνοις γε καὶ γυμναστικὴ ἐδόθη.
Now music together with gymnastic was the training we gave the men.
Ναί.
Yes.
Καὶ ταῖς γυναιξὶν ἄρα τούτω τὼ τέχνα καὶ τὰ περὶ τὸν
πόλεμον ἀποδοτέον καὶ χρηστέον κατὰ ταὐτά.
Then we must assign these two arts to the women also and the offices of war and employ them in the same way.
Εἰκὸς ἐξ ὧν λέγεις, ἔφη.
It would seem likely from what you say, he replied.
Ἴσως δή, εἶπον, παρὰ τὸ ἔθος γελοῖα ἂν φαίνοιτο πολλὰ
περὶ τὰ νῦν λεγόμενα, εἰ πράξεται ᾗ λέγεται.
Perhaps, then, said I, the contrast with present custom would make much in our proposals look ridiculous if our words are to be realized in fact.
Καὶ μάλα, ἔφη.
Yes, indeed, he said.
Τί, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, γελοιότατον αὐτῶν ὁρᾷς; ἢ δῆλα δὴ ὅτι
γυμνὰς τὰς γυναῖκας ἐν ταῖς παλαίστραις γυμναζομένας μετὰ
452b τῶν ἀνδρῶν, οὐ μόνον τὰς νέας, ἀλλὰ καὶ ἤδη τὰς πρεσβυτέρας,
ὥσπερ τοὺς γέροντας ἐν τοῖς γυμνασίοις, ὅταν ῥυσοὶ
καὶ μὴ ἡδεῖς τὴν ὄψιν ὅμως φιλογυμναστῶσιν;
What then, said I, is the funniest thing you note in them? Is it not obviously the women exercising unclad in the palestra together with the men, not only the young, but even the older, like old men in gymnasiums, when, though wrinkled and unpleasant to look at, they still persist in exercising?
Νὴ τὸν Δία, ἔφη· γελοῖον γὰρ ἄν, ὥς γε ἐν τῷ παρεστῶτι,
φανείη.
Yes, on my word, he replied, it would seem ridiculous under present conditions.
Οὐκοῦν, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, ἐπείπερ ὡρμήσαμεν λέγειν, οὐ φοβητέον
τὰ τῶν χαριέντων σκώμματα, ὅσα καὶ οἷα ἂν εἴποιεν
εἰς τὴν τοιαύτην μεταβολὴν γενομένην καὶ περὶ τὰ γυμνάσια
452c καὶ περὶ μουσικὴν καὶ οὐκ ἐλάχιστα περὶ τὴν τῶν ὅπλων
σχέσιν καὶ ἵππων ὀχήσεις.
Then, said I, since we have set out to speak our minds, we must not fear all the jibes with which the wits would greet so great a revolution, and the sort of things they would say about gymnastics and culture, and most of all about the bearing of arms and the bestriding of horses.
Ὀρθῶς, ἔφη, λέγεις.
You’re right, he said.
Ἀλλ' ἐπείπερ λέγειν ἠρξάμεθα, πορευτέον πρὸς τὸ τραχὺ
τοῦ νόμου, δεηθεῖσίν τε τούτων μὴ τὰ αὑτῶν πράττειν ἀλλὰ
σπουδάζειν, καὶ ὑπομνήσασιν ὅτι οὐ πολὺς χρόνος ἐξ οὗ τοῖς
Ἕλλησιν ἐδόκει αἰσχρὰ εἶναι καὶ γελοῖα ἅπερ νῦν τοῖς πολλοῖς
τῶν βαρβάρων, γυμνοὺς ἄνδρας ὁρᾶσθαι, καὶ ὅτε ἤρχοντο
τῶν γυμνασίων πρῶτοι μὲν Κρῆτες, ἔπειτα Λακεδαιμόνιοι,
452d ἐξῆν τοῖς τότε ἀστείοις πάντα ταῦτα κωμῳδεῖν. ἢ οὐκ οἴει;
But since we have begun we must go forward to the rough part of our law, after begging these fellows not to mind their own business but to be serious, and reminding them that it is not long since the Greeks thought it disgraceful and ridiculous, as most of the barbarians do now, for men to be seen naked. And when the practice of athletics began, first with the Cretans and then with the Lacedaemonians, it was open to the wits of that time to make fun of these practices, don’t you think so?
Ἔγωγε.
I do.
Ἀλλ' ἐπειδὴ οἶμαι χρωμένοις ἄμεινον τὸ ἀποδύεσθαι τοῦ
συγκαλύπτειν πάντα τὰ τοιαῦτα ἐφάνη, καὶ τὸ ἐν τοῖς ὀφθαλμοῖς
δὴ γελοῖον ἐξερρύη ὑπὸ τοῦ ἐν τοῖς λόγοις μηνυθέντος
ἀρίστου· καὶ τοῦτο ἐνεδείξατο, ὅτι μάταιος ὃς γελοῖον ἄλλο
τι ἡγεῖται ἢ τὸ κακόν, καὶ ὁ γελωτοποιεῖν ἐπιχειρῶν πρὸς
ἄλλην τινὰ ὄψιν ἀποβλέπων ὡς γελοίου ἢ τὴν τοῦ ἄφρονός
452e τε καὶ κακοῦ, καὶ καλοῦ αὖ σπουδάζει πρὸς ἄλλον τινὰ
σκοπὸν στησάμενος ἢ τὸν τοῦ ἀγαθοῦ.
But when, I take it, experience showed that it is better to strip than to veil all things of this sort, then the laughter of the eyes faded away before that which reason revealed to be best, and this made it plain that he talks idly who deems anything else ridiculous but evil, and who tries to raise a laugh by looking to any other pattern of absurdity than that of folly and wrong or sets up any other standard of the beautiful as a mark for his seriousness than the good.
Παντάπασι μὲν οὖν, ἔφη.
Most assuredly, said he.
Ἆρ' οὖν οὐ πρῶτον μὲν τοῦτο περὶ αὐτῶν ἀνομολογητέον,
εἰ δυνατὰ ἢ οὔ, καὶ δοτέον ἀμφισβήτησιν εἴτε τις φιλοπαίσμων
εἴτε σπουδαστικὸς ἐθέλει ἀμφισβητῆσαι, πότερον
453a δυνατὴ φύσις ἡ ἀνθρωπίνη ἡ θήλεια τῇ τοῦ ἄρρενος γένους
κοινωνῆσαι εἰς ἅπαντα τὰ ἔργα ἢ οὐδ' εἰς ἕν, ἢ εἰς τὰ μὲν
οἵα τε, εἰς δὲ τὰ οὔ, καὶ τοῦτο δὴ τὸ περὶ τὸν πόλεμον
ποτέρων ἐστίν; ἆρ' οὐχ οὕτως ἂν κάλλιστά τις ἀρχόμενος
ὡς τὸ εἰκὸς καὶ κάλλιστα τελευτήσειεν;
Then is not the first thing that we have to agree upon with regard to these proposals whether they are possible or not? And we must throw open the debate to anyone who wishes either in jest or earnest to raise the question whether female human nature is capable of sharing with the male all tasks or none at all, or some but not others, and under which of these heads this business of war falls. Would not this be that best beginning which would naturally and proverbially lead to the best end?
Πολύ γε, ἔφη.
Far the best, he said.
Βούλει οὖν, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, ἡμεῖς πρὸς ἡμᾶς αὐτοὺς ὑπὲρ τῶν
ἄλλων ἀμφισβητήσωμεν, ἵνα μὴ ἔρημα τὰ τοῦ ἑτέρου λόγου
πολιορκῆται;
Shall we then conduct the debate with ourselves in behalf of those others so that the case of the other side may not be taken defenceless and go by default?
453b Οὐδέν, ἔφη, κωλύει.
Nothing hinders, he said.
Λέγωμεν δὴ ὑπὲρ αὐτῶν ὅτι "Ὦ Σώκρατές τε καὶ
Γλαύκων, οὐδὲν δεῖ ὑμῖν ἄλλους ἀμφισβητεῖν· αὐτοὶ γὰρ
ἐν ἀρχῇ τῆς κατοικίσεως, ἣν ᾠκίζετε πόλιν, ὡμολογεῖτε
δεῖν κατὰ φύσιν ἕκαστον ἕνα ἓν τὸ αὑτοῦ πράττειν."
Shall we say then in their behalf: There is no need, Socrates and Glaucon, of others disputing against you, for you yourselves at the beginning of the foundation of your city agreed that each one ought to mind as his own business the one thing for which he was fitted by nature?
Ὡμολογήσαμεν οἶμαι· πῶς γὰρ οὔ;
We did so agree, I think; certainly!
"Ἔστιν οὖν ὅπως οὐ πάμπολυ διαφέρει γυνὴ ἀνδρὸς τὴν
φύσιν;"
Can it be denied then that there is by nature a great difference between men and women?
Πῶς δ' οὐ διαφέρει;
Surely there is.
"Οὐκοῦν ἄλλο καὶ ἔργον ἑκατέρῳ προσήκει προστάττειν
453c τὸ κατὰ τὴν αὑτοῦ φύσιν;"
Is it not fitting, then, that a different function should be appointed for each corresponding to this difference of nature?
Τί μήν;
Certainly.
"Πῶς οὖν οὐχ ἁμαρτάνετε νυνὶ καὶ τἀναντία ὑμῖν αὐτοῖς
λέγετε φάσκοντες αὖ τοὺς ἄνδρας καὶ τὰς γυναῖκας δεῖν τὰ
αὐτὰ πράττειν, πλεῖστον κεχωρισμένην φύσιν ἔχοντας;"
ἕξεις τι, ὦ θαυμάσιε, πρὸς ταῦτ' ἀπολογεῖσθαι;
How, then, can you deny that you are mistaken and in contradiction with yourselves when you turn around and affirm that the men and the women ought to do the same thing, though their natures are so far apart? Can you surprise me with an answer to that question?
Ὡς μὲν ἐξαίφνης, ἔφη, οὐ πάνυ ῥᾴδιον· ἀλλὰ σοῦ δεήσομαί
τε καὶ δέομαι καὶ τὸν ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν λόγον, ὅστις ποτ' ἐστίν,
ἑρμηνεῦσαι.
Not easily on this sudden challenge, he replied: but I will and do beg you to lend your voice to the plea in our behalf, whatever it may be.
Ταῦτ' ἐστίν, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, ὦ Γλαύκων, καὶ ἄλλα πολλὰ
453d τοιαῦτα, ἃ ἐγὼ πάλαι προορῶν ἐφοβούμην τε καὶ ὤκνουν
ἅπτεσθαι τοῦ νόμου τοῦ περὶ τὴν τῶν γυναικῶν καὶ παίδων
κτῆσιν καὶ τροφήν.
These and many similar difficulties, Glaucon, said I, I foresaw and feared, and so shrank from touching on the law concerning the getting and breeding of women and children.
Οὐ μὰ τὸν Δία, ἔφη· οὐ γὰρ εὐκόλῳ ἔοικεν.
It does not seem an easy thing, by heaven, he said, no, by heaven.
Οὐ γάρ, εἶπον. ἀλλὰ δὴ ὧδ' ἔχει· ἄντε τις εἰς κολυμβήθραν
μικρὰν ἐμπέσῃ ἄντε εἰς τὸ μέγιστον πέλαγος μέσον,
ὅμως γε νεῖ οὐδὲν ἧττον.
No, it is not, said I; but the fact is that whether one tumbles into a little diving-pool or plump into the great sea he swims all the same.
Πάνυ μὲν οὖν.
By all means.
Οὐκοῦν καὶ ἡμῖν νευστέον καὶ πειρατέον σῴζεσθαι ἐκ τοῦ
λόγου, ἤτοι δελφῖνά τινα ἐλπίζοντας ἡμᾶς ὑπολαβεῖν ἂν ἤ
τινα ἄλλην ἄπορον σωτηρίαν.
Then we, too, must swim and try to escape out of the sea of argument in the hope that either some dolphin will take us on its back or some other desperate rescue.
453e Ἔοικεν, ἔφη.
So it seems, he said.
Φέρε δή, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, ἐάν πῃ εὕρωμεν τὴν ἔξοδον. ὁμολογοῦμεν
γὰρ δὴ ἄλλην φύσιν ἄλλο δεῖν ἐπιτηδεύειν, γυναικὸς
δὲ καὶ ἀνδρὸς ἄλλην εἶναι· τὰς δὲ ἄλλας φύσεις τὰ αὐτά
φαμεν νῦν δεῖν ἐπιτηδεῦσαι. ταῦτα ἡμῶν κατηγορεῖται;
Come then, consider, said I, if we can find a way out. We did agree that different natures should have differing pursuits and that the nature of men and women differ. And yet now we affirm that these differing natures should have the same pursuits. That is the indictment.
Κομιδῇ γε.
It is.
454a Ἦ γενναία, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, ὦ Γλαύκων, ἡ δύναμις τῆς ἀντιλογικῆς
τέχνης.
What a grand thing, Glaucon, said I, is the power of the art of contradiction!
Τί δή;
Why so?
Ὅτι, εἶπον, δοκοῦσί μοι εἰς αὐτὴν καὶ ἄκοντες πολλοὶ
ἐμπίπτειν καὶ οἴεσθαι οὐκ ἐρίζειν ἀλλὰ διαλέγεσθαι, διὰ
τὸ μὴ δύνασθαι κατ' εἴδη διαιρούμενοι τὸ λεγόμενον ἐπισκοπεῖν,
ἀλλὰ κατ' αὐτὸ τὸ ὄνομα διώκειν τοῦ λεχθέντος
τὴν ἐναντίωσιν, ἔριδι, οὐ διαλέκτῳ πρὸς ἀλλήλους χρώμενοι.
Because, said I, many appear to me to fall into it even against their wills, and to suppose that they are not wrangling but arguing, owing to their inability to apply the proper divisions and distinctions to the subject under consideration. They pursue purely verbal oppositions, practising eristic, not dialectic on one another.
Ἔστι γὰρ δή, ἔφη, περὶ πολλοὺς τοῦτο τὸ πάθος· ἀλλὰ
μῶν καὶ πρὸς ἡμᾶς τοῦτο τείνει ἐν τῷ παρόντι;
Yes, this does happen to many, he said; but does this observation apply to us too at present?
454b Παντάπασι μὲν οὖν, ἦν δ' ἐγώ· κινδυνεύομεν γοῦν ἄκοντες
ἀντιλογίας ἅπτεσθαι.
Absolutely, said I; at any rate I am afraid that we are unawares slipping into contentiousness.
Πῶς;
In what way?
Τὸ <μὴ> τὴν αὐτὴν φύσιν ὅτι οὐ τῶν αὐτῶν δεῖ ἐπιτηδευμάτων
τυγχάνειν πάνυ ἀνδρείως τε καὶ ἐριστικῶς κατὰ τὸ
ὄνομα διώκομεν, ἐπεσκεψάμεθα δὲ οὐδ' ὁπῃοῦν τί εἶδος
τὸ τῆς ἑτέρας τε καὶ τῆς αὐτῆς φύσεως καὶ πρὸς τί τεῖνον
ὡριζόμεθα τότε, ὅτε τὰ ἐπιτηδεύματα ἄλλῃ φύσει ἄλλα, τῇ
δὲ αὐτῇ τὰ αὐτὰ ἀπεδίδομεν.
The principle that natures not the same ought not to share in the same pursuits we are following up most manfully and eristically in the literal and verbal sense but we did not delay to consider at all what particular kind of diversity and identity of nature we had in mind and with reference to what we were trying to define it when we assigned different pursuits to different natures and the same to the same.
Οὐ γὰρ οὖν, ἔφη, ἐπεσκεψάμεθα.
No, we didn’t consider that, he said.
454c Τοιγάρτοι, εἶπον, ἔξεστιν ἡμῖν, ὡς ἔοικεν, ἀνερωτᾶν ἡμᾶς
αὐτοὺς εἰ ἡ αὐτὴ φύσις φαλακρῶν καὶ κομητῶν καὶ οὐχ
ἡ ἐναντία, καὶ ἐπειδὰν ὁμολογῶμεν ἐναντίαν εἶναι, ἐὰν
φαλακροὶ σκυτοτομῶσιν, μὴ ἐᾶν κομήτας, ἐὰν δ' αὖ κομῆται,
μὴ τοὺς ἑτέρους.
Wherefore, by the same token, I said, we might ask ourselves whether the natures of bald and long-haired men are the same and not, rather, contrary. And, after agreeing that they were opposed, we might, if the bald cobbled, forbid the long-haired to do so, or vice versa.
Γελοῖον μεντἂν εἴη, ἔφη.
That would be ridiculous, he said.
Ἆρα κατ' ἄλλο τι, εἶπον ἐγώ, γελοῖον, ἢ ὅτι τότε οὐ
πάντως τὴν αὐτὴν καὶ τὴν ἑτέραν φύσιν ἐτιθέμεθα, ἀλλ'
ἐκεῖνο τὸ εἶδος τῆς ἀλλοιώσεώς τε καὶ ὁμοιώσεως μόνον
454d ἐφυλάττομεν τὸ πρὸς αὐτὰ τεῖνον τὰ ἐπιτηδεύματα; οἷον
ἰατρικὸν μὲν καὶ ἰατρικὴν τὴν ψυχὴν [ὄντα] τὴν αὐτὴν φύσιν
ἔχειν ἐλέγομεν· ἢ οὐκ οἴει;
Would it be so, said I, for any other reason than that we did not then posit likeness and difference of nature in any and every sense, but were paying heed solely to the kind of diversity and homogeneity that was pertinent to the pursuits themselves? We meant, for example, that a man and a woman who have a physician’s mind have the same nature. Don’t you think so?
Ἔγωγε.
I do.
Ἰατρικὸν δέ γε καὶ τεκτονικὸν ἄλλην;
But that a man physician and a man carpenter have different natures?
Πάντως που.
Certainly, I suppose.
Οὐκοῦν, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, καὶ τὸ τῶν ἀνδρῶν καὶ τὸ τῶν γυναικῶν
γένος, ἐὰν μὲν πρὸς τέχνην τινὰ ἢ ἄλλο ἐπιτήδευμα διαφέρον
φαίνηται, τοῦτο δὴ φήσομεν ἑκατέρῳ δεῖν ἀποδιδόναι· ἐὰν
δ' αὐτῷ τούτῳ φαίνηται διαφέρειν, τῷ τὸ μὲν θῆλυ τίκτειν,
454e τὸ δὲ ἄρρεν ὀχεύειν, οὐδέν τί πω φήσομεν μᾶλλον ἀποδεδεῖχθαι
ὡς πρὸς ὃ ἡμεῖς λέγομεν διαφέρει γυνὴ ἀνδρός, ἀλλ'
ἔτι οἰησόμεθα δεῖν τὰ αὐτὰ ἐπιτηδεύειν τούς τε φύλακας ἡμῖν
καὶ τὰς γυναῖκας αὐτῶν.
Similarly, then, said I, if it appears that the male and the female sex have distinct qualifications for any arts or pursuits, we shall affirm that they ought to be assigned respectively to each. But if it appears that they differ only in just this respect that the female bears and the male begets, we shall say that no proof has yet been produced that the woman differs from the man for our purposes, but we shall continue to think that our guardians and their wives ought to follow the same pursuits.
Καὶ ὀρθῶς γ', ἔφη.
And rightly, said he.
Οὐκοῦν μετὰ τοῦτο κελεύομεν τὸν τὰ ἐναντία λέγοντα
455a τοῦτο αὐτὸ διδάσκειν ἡμᾶς, πρὸς τίνα τέχνην ἢ τί ἐπιτήδευμα
τῶν περὶ πόλεως κατασκευὴν οὐχ ἡ αὐτὴ ἀλλὰ ἑτέρα φύσις
γυναικός τε καὶ ἀνδρός;
Then, is it not the next thing to bid our opponent tell us precisely for what art or pursuit concerned with the conduct of a state the woman’s nature differs from the man’s?
Δίκαιον γοῦν.
That would be at any rate fair.
Τάχα τοίνυν ἄν, ὅπερ σὺ ὀλίγον πρότερον ἔλεγες, εἴποι
ἂν καὶ ἄλλος, ὅτι ἐν μὲν τῷ παραχρῆμα ἱκανῶς εἰπεῖν οὐ
ῥᾴδιον, ἐπισκεψαμένῳ δὲ οὐδὲν χαλεπόν.
Perhaps, then, someone else, too, might say what you were saying a while ago, that it is not easy to find a satisfactory answer on a sudden, but that with time for reflection there is no difficulty.
Εἴποι γὰρ ἄν.
He might say that.
Βούλει οὖν δεώμεθα τοῦ τὰ τοιαῦτα ἀντιλέγοντος ἀκολουθῆσαι
455b ἡμῖν, ἐάν πως ἡμεῖς ἐκείνῳ ἐνδειξώμεθα ὅτι οὐδέν ἐστιν
ἐπιτήδευμα ἴδιον γυναικὶ πρὸς διοίκησιν πόλεως;
Shall we, then, beg the raiser of such objections to follow us, if we may perhaps prove able to make it plain to him that there is no pursuit connected with the administration of a state that is peculiar to woman?
Πάνυ γε.
By all means. Come then, we shall say to him, answer our question.
Ἴθι δή, φήσομεν πρὸς αὐτόν, ἀποκρίνου· ἆρα οὕτως
ἔλεγες τὸν μὲν εὐφυῆ πρός τι εἶναι, τὸν δὲ ἀφυῆ, ἐν ᾧ ὁ
μὲν ῥᾳδίως τι μανθάνοι, ὁ δὲ χαλεπῶς; καὶ ὁ μὲν ἀπὸ
βραχείας μαθήσεως ἐπὶ πολὺ εὑρετικὸς εἴη οὗ ἔμαθεν, ὁ δὲ
πολλῆς μαθήσεως τυχὼν καὶ μελέτης μηδ' ἃ ἔμαθε σῴζοιτο;
καὶ τῷ μὲν τὰ τοῦ σώματος ἱκανῶς ὑπηρετοῖ τῇ διανοίᾳ, τῷ
455c δὲ ἐναντιοῖτο; ἆρ' ἄλλα ἄττα ἐστὶν ἢ ταῦτα, οἷς τὸν εὐφυῆ
πρὸς ἕκαστα καὶ τὸν μὴ ὡρίζου;
Was this the basis of your distinction between the man naturally gifted for anything and the one not so gifted—that the one learned easily, the other with difficulty; that the one with slight instruction could discover much for himself in the matter studied, but the other, after much instruction and drill, could not even remember what he had learned; and that the bodily faculties of the one adequately served his mind, while, for the other, the body was a hindrance? Were there any other points than these by which you distinguish the well endowed man in every subject and the poorly endowed?
Οὐδείς, ἦ δ' ὅς, ἄλλα φήσει.
No one, said he, will be able to name any others.
Οἶσθά τι οὖν ὑπὸ ἀνθρώπων μελετώμενον, ἐν ᾧ οὐ πάντα
ταῦτα τὸ τῶν ἀνδρῶν γένος διαφερόντως ἔχει ἢ τὸ τῶν
γυναικῶν; ἢ μακρολογῶμεν τήν τε ὑφαντικὴν λέγοντες καὶ
τὴν τῶν ποπάνων τε καὶ ἑψημάτων θεραπείαν, ἐν οἷς δή τι
δοκεῖ τὸ γυναικεῖον γένος εἶναι, οὗ καὶ καταγελαστότατόν
455d ἐστι πάντων ἡττώμενον;
Do you know, then, of anything practised by mankind in which the masculine sex does not surpass the female on all these points? Must we make a long story of it by alleging weaving and the watching of pancakes and the boiling pot, whereon the sex plumes itself and wherein its defeat will expose it to most laughter?
Ἀληθῆ, ἔφη, λέγεις, ὅτι πολὺ κρατεῖται ἐν ἅπασιν ὡς
ἔπος εἰπεῖν τὸ γένος τοῦ γένους. γυναῖκες μέντοι πολλαὶ
πολλῶν ἀνδρῶν βελτίους εἰς πολλά· τὸ δὲ ὅλον ἔχει ὡς σὺ
λέγεις.
You are right, he said, that the one sex is far surpassed by the other in everything, one may say. Many women, it is true, are better than many men in many things, but broadly speaking, it is as you say.
Οὐδὲν ἄρα ἐστίν, ὦ φίλε, ἐπιτήδευμα τῶν πόλιν διοικούντων
γυναικὸς διότι γυνή, οὐδ' ἀνδρὸς διότι ἀνήρ,
ἀλλ' ὁμοίως διεσπαρμέναι αἱ φύσεις ἐν ἀμφοῖν τοῖν
ζῴοιν, καὶ πάντων μὲν μετέχει γυνὴ ἐπιτηδευμάτων κατὰ
455e φύσιν, πάντων δὲ ἀνήρ, ἐπὶ πᾶσι δὲ ἀσθενέστερον γυνὴ
ἀνδρός.
Then there is no pursuit of the administrators of a state that belongs to a woman because she is a woman or to a man because he is a man. But the natural capacities are distributed alike among both creatures, and women naturally share in all pursuits and men in all— yet for all the woman is weaker than the man.
Πάνυ γε.
Assuredly.
Ἦ οὖν ἀνδράσι πάντα προστάξομεν, γυναικὶ δ' οὐδέν;
Shall we, then, assign them all to men and nothing to women?
Καὶ πῶς;
How could we?
Ἀλλ' ἔστι γὰρ οἶμαι, ὡς φήσομεν, καὶ γυνὴ ἰατρική, ἡ δ'
οὔ, καὶ μουσική, ἡ δ' ἄμουσος φύσει.
We shall rather, I take it, say that one woman has the nature of a physician and another not, and one is by nature musical, and another unmusical?
Τί μήν;
Surely.
456a [Καὶ] γυμναστικὴ δ' ἄρα οὔ, οὐδὲ πολεμική, ἡ δὲ ἀπόλεμος
καὶ οὐ φιλογυμναστική;
Can we, then, deny that one woman is naturally athletic and warlike and another unwarlike and averse to gymnastics?
Οἶμαι ἔγωγε.
I think not.
Τί δέ; φιλόσοφός τε καὶ μισόσοφος; καὶ θυμοειδής, ἡ δ'
ἄθυμός ἐστι;
And again, one a lover, another a hater, of wisdom? And one high-spirited, and the other lacking spirit?
Καὶ ταῦτα.
That also is true.
Ἔστιν ἄρα καὶ φυλακικὴ γυνή, ἡ δ' οὔ. ἢ οὐ τοιαύτην
καὶ τῶν ἀνδρῶν τῶν φυλακικῶν φύσιν ἐξελεξάμεθα;
Then it is likewise true that one woman has the qualities of a guardian and another not. Were not these the natural qualities of the men also whom we selected for guardians?
Τοιαύτην μὲν οὖν.
They were.
Καὶ γυναικὸς ἄρα καὶ ἀνδρὸς ἡ αὐτὴ φύσις εἰς φυλακὴν
πόλεως, πλὴν ὅσα ἀσθενεστέρα, ἡ δὲ ἰσχυροτέρα ἐστίν.
The women and the men, then, have the same nature in respect to the guardianship of the state, save in so far as the one is weaker, the other stronger.
Φαίνεται.
Apparently.
456b Καὶ γυναῖκες ἄρα αἱ τοιαῦται τοῖς τοιούτοις ἀνδράσιν
ἐκλεκτέαι συνοικεῖν τε καὶ συμφυλάττειν, ἐπείπερ εἰσὶν ἱκαναὶ
καὶ συγγενεῖς αὐτοῖς τὴν φύσιν.
Women of this kind, then, must be selected to cohabit with men of this kind and to serve with them as guardians since they are capable of it and akin by nature.
Πάνυ γε.
By all means.
Τὰ δ' ἐπιτηδεύματα οὐ τὰ αὐτὰ ἀποδοτέα ταῖς αὐταῖς
φύσεσιν;
And to the same natures must we not assign the same pursuits?
Τὰ αὐτά.
The same.
Ἥκομεν ἄρα εἰς τὰ πρότερα περιφερόμενοι, καὶ ὁμολογοῦμεν
μὴ παρὰ φύσιν εἶναι ταῖς τῶν φυλάκων γυναιξὶ
μουσικήν τε καὶ γυμναστικὴν ἀποδιδόναι.
Παντάπασιν μὲν οὖν.
Οὐκ ἄρα ἀδύνατά γε οὐδὲ εὐχαῖς ὅμοια ἐνομοθετοῦμεν,
456c ἐπείπερ κατὰ φύσιν ἐτίθεμεν τὸν νόμον· ἀλλὰ τὰ νῦν παρὰ
ταῦτα γιγνόμενα παρὰ φύσιν μᾶλλον, ὡς ἔοικε, γίγνεται.
We come round, then, to our previous statement, and agree that it does not run counter to nature to assign music and gymnastics to the wives of the guardians. By all means. Our legislation, then, was not impracticable or utopian, since the law we proposed accorded with nature. Rather, the other way of doing things, prevalent today, proves, as it seems, unnatural.
Ἔοικεν.
Apparently.
Οὐκοῦν ἡ ἐπίσκεψις ἡμῖν ἦν εἰ δυνατά γε καὶ βέλτιστα
λέγοιμεν;
The object of our inquiry was the possibility and the desirability of what we were proposing.
Ἦν γάρ.
It was.
Καὶ ὅτι μὲν δὴ δυνατά, διωμολόγηται;
That it is possible has been admitted.
Ναί.
Yes.
Ὅτι δὲ δὴ βέλτιστα, τὸ μετὰ τοῦτο δεῖ διομολογηθῆναι;
The next point to be agreed upon is that it is the best way.
Δῆλον.
Obviously.
Οὐκοῦν πρός γε τὸ φυλακικὴν γυναῖκα γενέσθαι, οὐκ ἄλλη
μὲν ἡμῖν ἄνδρας ποιήσει παιδεία, ἄλλη δὲ γυναῖκας, ἄλλως
456d τε καὶ τὴν αὐτὴν φύσιν παραλαβοῦσα;
For the production of a guardian, then, education will not be one thing for our men and another for our women, especially since the nature which we hand over to it is the same.
Οὐκ ἄλλη.
There will be no difference.
Πῶς οὖν ἔχεις δόξης τοῦ τοιοῦδε πέρι;
How are you minded, now, in this matter?
Τίνος δή;
In what?
Τοῦ ὑπολαμβάνειν παρὰ σεαυτῷ τὸν μὲν ἀμείνω ἄνδρα,
τὸν δὲ χείρω· ἢ πάντας ὁμοίους ἡγῇ;
In the matter of supposing some men to be better and some worse, or do you think them all alike?
Οὐδαμῶς.
By no means.
Ἐν οὖν τῇ πόλει ἣν ᾠκίζομεν, πότερον οἴει ἡμῖν ἀμείνους
ἄνδρας ἐξειργάσθαι τοὺς φύλακας, τυχόντας ἧς διήλθομεν
παιδείας, ἢ τοὺς σκυτοτόμους, τῇ σκυτικῇ παιδευθέντας;
In the city, then, that we are founding, which do you think will prove the better men, the guardians receiving the education which we have described or the cobblers educated by the art of cobbling?
Γελοῖον, ἔφη, ἐρωτᾷς.
Μανθάνω, ἔφην. τί δέ; τῶν ἄλλων πολιτῶν οὐχ οὗτοι
456e ἄριστοι;
An absurd question, he said. I understand, said I; and are not these the best of all the citizens?
Πολύ γε.
By far.
Τί δέ; αἱ γυναῖκες τῶν γυναικῶν οὐχ αὗται ἔσονται
βέλτισται;
And will not these women be the best of all the women?
Καὶ τοῦτο, ἔφη, πολύ.
They, too, by far.
Ἔστι δέ τι πόλει ἄμεινον ἢ γυναῖκάς τε καὶ ἄνδρας ὡς
ἀρίστους ἐγγίγνεσθαι;
Is there anything better for a state than the generation in it of the best possible women and men?
Οὐκ ἔστιν.
There is not.
Τοῦτο δὲ μουσική τε καὶ γυμναστικὴ παραγιγνόμεναι, ὡς
457a ἡμεῖς διήλθομεν, ἀπεργάσονται;
And this, music and gymnastics applied as we described will effect.
Πῶς δ' οὔ;
Surely.
Οὐ μόνον ἄρα δυνατὸν ἀλλὰ καὶ ἄριστον πόλει νόμιμον
ἐτίθεμεν.
Then the institution we proposed is not only possible but the best for the state.
Οὕτως.
That is so.
Ἀποδυτέον δὴ ταῖς τῶν φυλάκων γυναιξίν, ἐπείπερ ἀρετὴν
ἀντὶ ἱματίων ἀμφιέσονται, καὶ κοινωνητέον πολέμου τε καὶ
τῆς ἄλλης φυλακῆς τῆς περὶ τὴν πόλιν, καὶ οὐκ ἄλλα
πρακτέον· τούτων δ' αὐτῶν τὰ ἐλαφρότερα ταῖς γυναιξὶν
ἢ τοῖς ἀνδράσι δοτέον διὰ τὴν τοῦ γένους ἀσθένειαν. ὁ
457b δὲ γελῶν ἀνὴρ ἐπὶ γυμναῖς γυναιξί, τοῦ βελτίστου ἕνεκα
γυμναζομέναις, ἀτελῆ τοῦ γελοίου σοφίας δρέπων καρπόν,
οὐδὲν οἶδεν, ὡς ἔοικεν, ἐφ' ᾧ γελᾷ οὐδ' ὅτι πράττει·
κάλλιστα γὰρ δὴ τοῦτο καὶ λέγεται καὶ λελέξεται, ὅτι τὸ μὲν
ὠφέλιμον καλόν, τὸ δὲ βλαβερὸν αἰσχρόν.
The women of the guardians, then, must strip, since they will be clothed with virtue as a garment, and must take their part with the men in war and the other duties of civic guardianship and have no other occupation. But in these very duties lighter tasks must be assigned to the women than to the men because of their weakness as a class. But the man who ridicules unclad women, exercising because it is best that they should, plucks the unripe fruit of laughter and does not know, it appears, the end of his laughter nor what he would be at. For the fairest thing that is said or ever will be said is this, that the helpful is fair and the harmful foul.
Παντάπασι μὲν οὖν.
Assuredly.
Τοῦτο μὲν τοίνυν ἓν ὥσπερ κῦμα φῶμεν διαφεύγειν τοῦ
γυναικείου πέρι νόμου λέγοντες, ὥστε μὴ παντάπασι κατακλυσθῆναι
τιθέντας ὡς δεῖ κοινῇ πάντα ἐπιτηδεύειν τούς τε
457c φύλακας ἡμῖν καὶ τὰς φυλακίδας, ἀλλά πῃ τὸν λόγον αὐτὸν
αὑτῷ ὁμολογεῖσθαι ὡς δυνατά τε καὶ ὠφέλιμα λέγει;
In this matter, then, of the regulation of women, we may say that we have surmounted one of the waves of our paradox and have not been quite swept away by it in ordaining that our guardians and female guardians must have all pursuits in common, but that in some sort the argument concurs with itself in the assurance that what it proposes is both possible and beneficial.
Καὶ μάλα, ἔφη, οὐ σμικρὸν κῦμα διαφεύγεις.
It is no slight wave that you are thus escaping.
Φήσεις γε, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, οὐ μέγα αὐτὸ εἶναι, ὅταν τὸ μετὰ
τοῦτο ἴδῃς.
You will not think it a great one, I said, when you have seen the one that follows.
Λέγε δή, ἴδω, ἔφη.
Say on then and show me, said he.
Τούτῳ, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, ἕπεται νόμος καὶ τοῖς ἔμπροσθεν τοῖς
ἄλλοις, ὡς ἐγᾦμαι, ὅδε.
This, said I, and all that precedes has for its sequel, in my opinion, the following law.
Τίς;
What?
Τὰς γυναῖκας ταύτας τῶν ἀνδρῶν τούτων πάντων πάσας
457d εἶναι κοινάς, ἰδίᾳ δὲ μηδενὶ μηδεμίαν συνοικεῖν· καὶ τοὺς
παῖδας αὖ κοινούς, καὶ μήτε γονέα ἔκγονον εἰδέναι τὸν αὑτοῦ
μήτε παῖδα γονέα.
That these women shall all be common to all the men, and that none shall cohabit with any privately; and that the children shall be common, and that no parent shall know its own offspring nor any child its parent.
Πολύ, ἔφη, τοῦτο ἐκείνου μεῖζον πρὸς ἀπιστίαν καὶ τοῦ
δυνατοῦ πέρι καὶ τοῦ ὠφελίμου.
This is a far bigger paradox than the other, and provokes more distrust as to its possibility and its utility.
Οὐκ οἶμαι, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, περί γε τοῦ ὠφελίμου ἀμφισβητεῖσθαι
ἄν, ὡς οὐ μέγιστον ἀγαθὸν κοινὰς μὲν τὰς γυναῖκας
εἶναι, κοινοὺς δὲ τοὺς παῖδας, εἴπερ οἷόν τε· ἀλλ' οἶμαι περὶ
τοῦ εἰ δυνατὸν ἢ μὴ πλείστην ἂν ἀμφισβήτησιν γενέσθαι.
I presume, said I, that there would be no debate about its utility, no denial that the community of women and children would be the greatest good, supposing it possible. But I take it that its possibility or the contrary would be the chief topic of contention.
457e Περὶ ἀμφοτέρων, ἦ δ' ὅς, εὖ μάλ' ἂν ἀμφισβητηθείη.
Both, he said, would be right sharply debated.
Λέγεις, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, λόγων σύστασιν· ἐγὼ δ' ᾤμην ἔκ γε
τοῦ ἑτέρου ἀποδράσεσθαι, εἴ σοι δόξειεν ὠφέλιμον εἶναι,
λοιπὸν δὲ δή μοι ἔσεσθαι περὶ τοῦ δυνατοῦ καὶ μή.
You mean, said I, that I have to meet a coalition of arguments. But I expected to escape from one of them, and that if you agreed that the thing was beneficial, it would remain for me to speak only of its feasibility.
Ἀλλ' οὐκ ἔλαθες, ἦ δ' ὅς, ἀποδιδράσκων, ἀλλ' ἀμφοτέρων
πέρι δίδου λόγον.
You have not escaped detection, he said, in your attempted flight, but you must render an account of both.
Ὑφεκτέον, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, δίκην. τοσόνδε μέντοι χάρισαί
458a μοι· ἔασόν με ἑορτάσαι, ὥσπερ οἱ ἀργοὶ τὴν διάνοιαν εἰώθασιν
ἑστιᾶσθαι ὑφ' ἑαυτῶν, ὅταν μόνοι πορεύωνται. καὶ
γὰρ οἱ τοιοῦτοί που, πρὶν ἐξευρεῖν τίνα τρόπον ἔσται τι ὧν
ἐπιθυμοῦσι, τοῦτο παρέντες, ἵνα μὴ κάμνωσι βουλευόμενοι
περὶ τοῦ δυνατοῦ καὶ μή, θέντες ὡς ὑπάρχον εἶναι ὃ βούλονται,
ἤδη τὰ λοιπὰ διατάττουσιν καὶ χαίρουσιν διεξιόντες
οἷα δράσουσι γενομένου, ἀργὸν καὶ ἄλλως ψυχὴν ἔτι
458b ἀργοτέραν ποιοῦντες. ἤδη οὖν καὶ αὐτὸς μαλθακίζομαι, καὶ
ἐκεῖνα μὲν ἐπιθυμῶ ἀναβαλέσθαι καὶ ὕστερον ἐπισκέψασθαι,
ᾗ δυνατά, νῦν δὲ ὡς δυνατῶν ὄντων θεὶς σκέψομαι, ἄν μοι
παριῇς, πῶς διατάξουσιν αὐτὰ οἱ ἄρχοντες γιγνόμενα, καὶ
ὅτι πάντων συμφορώτατ' ἂν εἴη πραχθέντα τῇ τε πόλει καὶ
τοῖς φύλαξιν. ταῦτα πειράσομαί σοι πρότερα συνδιασκοπεῖσθαι,
ὕστερα δ' ἐκεῖνα, εἴπερ παριεῖς.
I must pay the penalty, I said, yet do me this much grace: Permit me to take a holiday, just as men of lazy minds are wont to feast themselves on their own thoughts when they walk alone. Such persons, without waiting to discover how their desires may be realized, dismiss that topic to save themselves the labor of deliberating about possibilities and impossibilities, assume their wish fulfilled, and proceed to work out the details in imagination, and take pleasure in portraying what they will do when it is realized, thus making still more idle a mind that is idle without that. I too now succumb to this weakness and desire to postpone and examine later the question of feasibility, but will at present assume that, and will, with your permission, inquire how the rulers will work out the details in practice, and try to show that nothing could be more beneficial to the state and its guardians than the effective operation of our plan. This is what I would try to consider first together with you, and thereafter the other topic, if you allow it.
Ἀλλὰ παρίημι, ἔφη, καὶ σκόπει.
I do allow it, he said: proceed with the inquiry.
Οἶμαι τοίνυν, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, εἴπερ ἔσονται οἱ ἄρχοντες ἄξιοι
458c τούτου τοῦ ὀνόματος, οἵ τε τούτοις ἐπίκουροι κατὰ ταὐτά,
τοὺς μὲν ἐθελήσειν ποιεῖν τὰ ἐπιταττόμενα, τοὺς δὲ ἐπιτάξειν,
τὰ μὲν αὐτοὺς πειθομένους τοῖς νόμοις, τὰ δὲ καὶ
μιμουμένους, ὅσα ἂν ἐκείνοις ἐπιτρέψωμεν.
Εἰκός, ἔφη.
I think, then, said I, that the rulers, if they are to deserve that name, and their helpers likewise, will, the one, be willing to accept orders, and the other, to give them, in some things obeying our laws, and imitating them in others which we leave to their discretion. Presumably.
Σὺ μὲν τοίνυν, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, ὁ νομοθέτης αὐτοῖς, ὥσπερ τοὺς
ἄνδρας ἐξέλεξας, οὕτω καὶ τὰς γυναῖκας ἐκλέξας παραδώσεις
καθ' ὅσον οἷόν τε ὁμοφυεῖς· οἱ δέ, ἅτε οἰκίας τε καὶ συςσίτια
κοινὰ ἔχοντες, ἰδίᾳ δὲ οὐδενὸς οὐδὲν τοιοῦτον κεκτημένου,
458d ὁμοῦ δὴ ἔσονται, ὁμοῦ δὲ ἀναμεμειγμένων καὶ ἐν
γυμνασίοις καὶ ἐν τῇ ἄλλῃ τροφῇ ὑπ' ἀνάγκης οἶμαι τῆς
ἐμφύτου ἄξονται πρὸς τὴν ἀλλήλων μεῖξιν. ἢ οὐκ ἀναγκαῖά
σοι δοκῶ λέγειν;
You, then, the lawgiver, I said, have picked these men and similarly will select to give over to them women as nearly as possible of the same nature. And they, having houses and meals in common, and no private possessions of that kind, will dwell together, and being commingled in gymnastics and in all their life and education, will be conducted by innate necessity to sexual union. Is not what I say a necessary consequence?
Οὐ γεωμετρικαῖς γε, ἦ δ' ὅς, ἀλλ' ἐρωτικαῖς ἀνάγκαις, αἳ
κινδυνεύουσιν ἐκείνων δριμύτεραι εἶναι πρὸς τὸ πείθειν τε
καὶ ἕλκειν τὸν πολὺν λεών.
Not by the necessities of geometry, he said, but by those of love, which are perhaps keener and more potent than the other to persuade and constrain the multitude.
Καὶ μάλα, εἶπον. ἀλλὰ μετὰ δὴ ταῦτα, ὦ Γλαύκων,
ἀτάκτως μὲν μείγνυσθαι ἀλλήλοις ἢ ἄλλο ὁτιοῦν ποιεῖν οὔτε
458e ὅσιον ἐν εὐδαιμόνων πόλει οὔτ' ἐάσουσιν οἱ ἄρχοντες.
They are, indeed, I said; but next, Glaucon, disorder and promiscuity in these unions or in anything else they do would be an unhallowed thing in a happy state and the rulers will not suffer it.
Οὐ γὰρ δίκαιον, ἔφη.
It would not be right, he said.
Δῆλον δὴ ὅτι γάμους τὸ μετὰ τοῦτο ποιήσομεν ἱεροὺς εἰς
δύναμιν ὅτι μάλιστα· εἶεν δ' ἂν ἱεροὶ οἱ ὠφελιμώτατοι.
Παντάπασι μὲν οὖν.
Obviously, then, we must arrange marriages, sacramental so far as may be. And the most sacred marriages would be those that were most beneficial. By all means.
459a Πῶς οὖν δὴ ὠφελιμώτατοι ἔσονται; τόδε μοι λέγε, ὦ
Γλαύκων· ὁρῶ γάρ σου ἐν τῇ οἰκίᾳ καὶ κύνας θηρευτικοὺς
καὶ τῶν γενναίων ὀρνίθων μάλα συχνούς· ἆρ' οὖν, ὦ πρὸς
Διός, προσέσχηκάς τι τοῖς τούτων γάμοις τε καὶ παιδοποιίᾳ;
How, then, would the greatest benefit result? Tell me this, Glaucon. I see that you have in your house hunting-dogs and a number of pedigree cocks. Have you ever considered something about their unions and procreations?
Τὸ ποῖον; ἔφη.
What? he said.
Πρῶτον μὲν αὐτῶν τούτων, καίπερ ὄντων γενναίων, ἆρ'
οὐκ εἰσί τινες καὶ γίγνονται ἄριστοι;
In the first place, I said, among these themselves, although they are a select breed, do not some prove better than the rest?
Εἰσίν.
They do.
Πότερον οὖν ἐξ ἁπάντων ὁμοίως γεννᾷς, ἢ προθυμῇ ὅτι
μάλιστα ἐκ τῶν ἀρίστων;
Ἐκ τῶν ἀρίστων.
Do you then breed from all indiscriminately, or are you careful to breed from the best? From the best.
459b Τί δ'; ἐκ τῶν νεωτάτων ἢ ἐκ τῶν γεραιτάτων ἢ ἐξ
ἀκμαζόντων ὅτι μάλιστα;
And, again, do you breed from the youngest or the oldest, or, so far as may be, from those in their prime?
Ἐξ ἀκμαζόντων.
From those in their prime.
Καὶ ἂν μὴ οὕτω γεννᾶται, πολύ σοι ἡγῇ χεῖρον ἔσεσθαι
τό τε τῶν ὀρνίθων καὶ τὸ τῶν κυνῶν γένος;
And if they are not thus bred, you expect, do you not, that your birds and hounds will greatly degenerate?
Ἔγωγ', ἔφη.
I do, he said.
Τί δὲ ἵππων οἴει, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, καὶ τῶν ἄλλων ζῴων; ἦ
ἄλλῃ πῃ ἔχειν;
And what of horses and other animals? I said; is it otherwise with them?
Ἄτοπον μεντἄν, ἦ δ' ὅς, εἴη.
It would be strange if it were, said he.
Βαβαῖ, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, ὦ φίλε ἑταῖρε, ὡς ἄρα σφόδρα ἡμῖν
δεῖ ἄκρων εἶναι τῶν ἀρχόντων, εἴπερ καὶ περὶ τὸ τῶν
ἀνθρώπων γένος ὡσαύτως ἔχει.
Gracious, said I, dear friend, how imperative, then, is our need of the highest skill in our rulers, if the principle holds also for mankind.
459c Ἀλλὰ μὲν δὴ ἔχει, ἔφη· ἀλλὰ τί δή;
Well, it does, he said, but what of it?
Ὅτι ἀνάγκη αὐτοῖς, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, φαρμάκοις πολλοῖς χρῆσθαι.
ἰατρὸν δέ που μὴ δεομένοις μὲν σώμασι φαρμάκων,
ἀλλὰ διαίτῃ ἐθελόντων ὑπακούειν, καὶ φαυλότερον ἐξαρκεῖν
ἡγούμεθα εἶναι· ὅταν δὲ δὴ καὶ φαρμακεύειν δέῃ, ἴσμεν ὅτι
ἀνδρειοτέρου δεῖ τοῦ ἰατροῦ.
This, said I, that they will have to employ many of those drugs of which we were speaking. We thought that an inferior physician sufficed for bodies that do not need drugs but yield to diet and regimen. But when it is necessary to prescribe drugs we know that a more enterprising and venturesome physician is required.
Ἀληθῆ· ἀλλὰ πρὸς τί λέγεις;
True; but what is the pertinency?
Πρὸς τόδε, ἦν δ' ἐγώ· συχνῷ τῷ ψεύδει καὶ τῇ ἀπάτῃ
κινδυνεύει ἡμῖν δεήσειν χρῆσθαι τοὺς ἄρχοντας ἐπ' ὠφελίᾳ
459d τῶν ἀρχομένων. ἔφαμεν δέ που ἐν φαρμάκου εἴδει πάντα
τὰ τοιαῦτα χρήσιμα εἶναι.
This, said I: it seems likely that our rulers will have to make considerable use of falsehood and deception for the benefit of their subjects. We said, I believe, that the use of that sort of thing was in the category of medicine.
Καὶ ὀρθῶς γε, ἔφη.
And that was right, he said.
Ἐν τοῖς γάμοις τοίνυν καὶ παιδοποιίαις ἔοικε τὸ ὀρθὸν
τοῦτο γίγνεσθαι οὐκ ἐλάχιστον.
In our marriages, then, and the procreation of children, it seems there will be no slight need of this kind of right.
Πῶς δή;
How so?
Δεῖ μέν, εἶπον, ἐκ τῶν ὡμολογημένων τοὺς ἀρίστους ταῖς
ἀρίσταις συγγίγνεσθαι ὡς πλειστάκις, τοὺς δὲ φαυλοτάτους
ταῖς φαυλοτάταις τοὐναντίον, καὶ τῶν μὲν τὰ ἔκγονα τρέφειν,
459e τῶν δὲ μή, εἰ μέλλει τὸ ποίμνιον ὅτι ἀκρότατον εἶναι, καὶ
ταῦτα πάντα γιγνόμενα λανθάνειν πλὴν αὐτοὺς τοὺς ἄρχοντας,
εἰ αὖ ἡ ἀγέλη τῶν φυλάκων ὅτι μάλιστα ἀστασίαστος ἔσται.
It follows from our former admissions, I said, that the best men must cohabit with the best women in as many cases as possible and the worst with the worst in the fewest, and that the offspring of the one must be reared and that of the other not, if the flock is to be as perfect as possible. And the way in which all this is brought to pass must be unknown to any but the rulers, if, again, the herd of guardians is to be as free as possible from dissension.
Ὀρθότατα, ἔφη.
Most true, he said.
Οὐκοῦν δὴ ἑορταί τινες νομοθετητέαι ἐν αἷς συνάξομεν
τάς τε νύμφας καὶ τοὺς νυμφίους καὶ θυσίαι, καὶ ὕμνοι
460a ποιητέοι τοῖς ἡμετέροις ποιηταῖς πρέποντες τοῖς γιγνομένοις
γάμοις· τὸ δὲ πλῆθος τῶν γάμων ἐπὶ τοῖς ἄρχουσι ποιήσομεν,
ἵν' ὡς μάλιστα διασῴζωσι τὸν αὐτὸν ἀριθμὸν τῶν
ἀνδρῶν, πρὸς πολέμους τε καὶ νόσους καὶ πάντα τὰ τοιαῦτα
ἀποσκοποῦντες, καὶ μήτε μεγάλη ἡμῖν ἡ πόλις κατὰ τὸ
δυνατὸν μήτε σμικρὰ γίγνηται.
We shall, then, have to ordain certain festivals and sacrifices, in which we shall bring together the brides and the bridegrooms, and our poets must compose hymns suitable to the marriages that then take place. But the number of the marriages we will leave to the discretion of the rulers, that they may keep the number of the citizens as nearly as may be the same, taking into account wars and diseases and all such considerations, and that, so far as possible, our city may not grow too great or too small.
Ὀρθῶς, ἔφη.
Right, he said.
Κλῆροι δή τινες οἶμαι ποιητέοι κομψοί, ὥστε τὸν φαῦλον
ἐκεῖνον αἰτιᾶσθαι ἐφ' ἑκάστης συνέρξεως τύχην ἀλλὰ μὴ
τοὺς ἄρχοντας.
Certain ingenious lots, then, I suppose, must be devised so that the inferior man at each conjugation may blame chance and not the rulers.
Καὶ μάλα, ἔφη.
Yes, indeed, he said.
460b Καὶ τοῖς ἀγαθοῖς γέ που τῶν νέων ἐν πολέμῳ ἢ ἄλλοθί
που γέρα δοτέον καὶ ἆθλα ἄλλα τε καὶ ἀφθονεστέρα ἡ
ἐξουσία τῆς τῶν γυναικῶν συγκοιμήσεως, ἵνα καὶ ἅμα μετὰ
προφάσεως ὡς πλεῖστοι τῶν παίδων ἐκ τῶν τοιούτων
σπείρωνται.
And on the young men, surely, who excel in war and other pursuits we must bestow honors and prizes, and, in particular, the opportunity of more frequent intercourse with the women, which will at the same time be a plausible pretext for having them beget as many of the children as possible.
Ὀρθῶς.
Right.
Οὐκοῦν καὶ τὰ ἀεὶ γιγνόμενα ἔκγονα παραλαμβάνουσαι
αἱ ἐπὶ τούτων ἐφεστηκυῖαι ἀρχαὶ εἴτε ἀνδρῶν εἴτε γυναικῶν
εἴτε ἀμφότερα—κοιναὶ μὲν γάρ που καὶ ἀρχαὶ γυναιξί τε
καὶ ἀνδράσιν—
Ναί.
And the children thus born will be taken over by the officials appointed for this, men or women or both, since, I take it, the official posts too are common to women and men.
460c Τὰ μὲν δὴ τῶν ἀγαθῶν, δοκῶ, λαβοῦσαι εἰς τὸν σηκὸν
οἴσουσιν παρά τινας τροφοὺς χωρὶς οἰκούσας ἔν τινι μέρει
τῆς πόλεως· τὰ δὲ τῶν χειρόνων, καὶ ἐάν τι τῶν ἑτέρων
ἀνάπηρον γίγνηται, ἐν ἀπορρήτῳ τε καὶ ἀδήλῳ κατακρύψουσιν
ὡς πρέπει.
The offspring of the good, I suppose, they will take to the pen or créche, to certain nurses who live apart in a quarter of the city, but the offspring of the inferior, and any of those of the other sort who are born defective, they will properly dispose of in secret, so that no one will know what has become of them.
Εἴπερ μέλλει, ἔφη, καθαρὸν τὸ γένος τῶν φυλάκων
ἔσεσθαι.
That is the condition, he said, of preserving the purity of the guardians’ breed.
Οὐκοῦν καὶ τροφῆς οὗτοι ἐπιμελήσονται τάς τε μητέρας
ἐπὶ τὸν σηκὸν ἄγοντες ὅταν σπαργῶσι, πᾶσαν μηχανὴν
460d μηχανώμενοι ὅπως μηδεμία τὸ αὑτῆς αἰσθήσεται, καὶ ἄλλας
γάλα ἐχούσας ἐκπορίζοντες, ἐὰν μὴ αὐταὶ ἱκαναὶ ὦσι, καὶ
αὐτῶν τούτων ἐπιμελήσονται ὅπως μέτριον χρόνον θηλάσονται,
ἀγρυπνίας δὲ καὶ τὸν ἄλλον πόνον τίτθαις τε καὶ τροφοῖς
παραδώσουσιν;
They will also supervise the nursing of the children, conducting the mothers to the pen when their breasts are full, but employing every device to prevent anyone from recognizing her own infant. And they will provide others who have milk if the mothers are insufficient. But they will take care that the mothers themselves shall not suckle too long, and the trouble of wakeful nights and similar burdens they will devolve upon the nurses, wet and dry.
Πολλὴν ῥᾳστώνην, ἔφη, λέγεις τῆς παιδοποιίας ταῖς τῶν
φυλάκων γυναιξίν.
You are making maternity a soft job for the women of the guardians.
Πρέπει γάρ, ἦν δ' ἐγώ. τὸ δ' ἐφεξῆς διέλθωμεν ὃ
προυθέμεθα. ἔφαμεν γὰρ δὴ ἐξ ἀκμαζόντων δεῖν τὰ ἔκγονα
γίγνεσθαι.
Ἀληθῆ.
It ought to be, said I, but let us pursue our design. We said that the offspring should come from parents in their prime. True.
460e Ἆρ' οὖν σοι συνδοκεῖ μέτριος χρόνος ἀκμῆς τὰ εἴκοσι
ἔτη γυναικί, ἀνδρὶ δὲ τὰ τριάκοντα;
Do you agree that the period of the prime may be fairly estimated at twenty years for a woman and thirty for a man?
Τὰ ποῖα αὐτῶν; ἔφη.
How do you reckon it? he said.
Γυναικὶ μέν, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, ἀρξαμένῃ ἀπὸ εἰκοσιέτιδος μέχρι
τετταρακονταέτιδος τίκτειν τῇ πόλει· ἀνδρὶ δέ, ἐπειδὰν τὴν
ὀξυτάτην δρόμου ἀκμὴν παρῇ, τὸ ἀπὸ τούτου γεννᾶν τῇ
πόλει μέχρι πεντεκαιπεντηκονταέτους.
The women, I said, beginning at the age of twenty, shall bear for the state to the age of forty, and the man shall beget for the state from the time he passes his prime in swiftness in running to the age of fifty-five.
461a Ἀμφοτέρων γοῦν, ἔφη, αὕτη ἀκμὴ σώματός τε καὶ
φρονήσεως.
That is, he said, the maturity and prime for both of body and mind.
Οὐκοῦν ἐάντε πρεσβύτερος τούτων ἐάντε νεώτερος τῶν
εἰς τὸ κοινὸν γεννήσεων ἅψηται, οὔτε ὅσιον οὔτε δίκαιον
φήσομεν τὸ ἁμάρτημα, ὡς παῖδα φιτύοντος τῇ πόλει, ὅς, ἂν
λάθῃ, γεννήσεται οὐχ ὑπὸ θυσιῶν οὐδ' ὑπὸ εὐχῶν φύς, ἃς
ἐφ' ἑκάστοις τοῖς γάμοις εὔξονται καὶ ἱέρειαι καὶ ἱερεῖς καὶ
σύμπασα ἡ πόλις ἐξ ἀγαθῶν ἀμείνους καὶ ἐξ ὠφελίμων
461b ὠφελιμωτέρους ἀεὶ τοὺς ἐκγόνους γίγνεσθαι, ἀλλ' ὑπὸ
σκότου μετὰ δεινῆς ἀκρατείας γεγονώς.
Then, if anyone older or younger than the prescribed age meddles with procreation for the state, we shall say that his error is an impiety and an injustice, since he is begetting for the city a child whose birth, if it escapes discovery, will not be attended by the sacrifices and the prayers which the priests and priestesses and the entire city prefer at the ceremonial marriages, that ever better offspring may spring from good sires and from fathers helpful to the state sons more helpful still. But this child will be born in darkness and conceived in foul incontinence.
Ὀρθῶς, ἔφη.
Right, he said.
Ὁ αὐτὸς δέ γ', εἶπον, νόμος, ἐάν τις τῶν ἔτι γεννώντων
μὴ συνέρξαντος ἄρχοντος ἅπτηται τῶν ἐν ἡλικίᾳ γυναικῶν·
νόθον γὰρ καὶ ἀνέγγυον καὶ ἀνίερον φήσομεν αὐτὸν παῖδα
τῇ πόλει καθιστάναι.
And the same rule will apply, I said, if any of those still within the age of procreation goes in to a woman of that age with whom the ruler has not paired him. We shall say that he is imposing on the state a base-born, uncertified, and unhallowed child.
Ὀρθότατα, ἔφη.
Most rightly, he said.
Ὅταν δὲ δὴ οἶμαι αἵ τε γυναῖκες καὶ οἱ ἄνδρες τοῦ γεννᾶν
ἐκβῶσι τὴν ἡλικίαν, ἀφήσομέν που ἐλευθέρους αὐτοὺς συγγίγνεσθαι
461c ᾧ ἂν ἐθέλωσι, πλὴν θυγατρὶ καὶ μητρὶ καὶ ταῖς
τῶν θυγατέρων παισὶ καὶ ταῖς ἄνω μητρός, καὶ γυναῖκας αὖ
πλὴν ὑεῖ καὶ πατρὶ καὶ τοῖς τούτων εἰς τὸ κάτω καὶ ἐπὶ τὸ
ἄνω, καὶ ταῦτά γ' ἤδη πάντα διακελευσάμενοι προθυμεῖσθαι
μάλιστα μὲν μηδ' εἰς φῶς ἐκφέρειν κύημα μηδέ γ' ἕν, ἐὰν
γένηται, ἐὰν δέ τι βιάσηται, οὕτω τιθέναι, ὡς οὐκ οὔσης
τροφῆς τῷ τοιούτῳ.
But when, I take it, the men and the women have passed the age of lawful procreation, we shall leave the men free to form such relations with whomsoever they please, except daughter and mother and their direct descendants and ascendants, and likewise the women, save with son and father, and so on, first admonishing them preferably not even to bring to light anything whatever thus conceived, but if they are unable to prevent a birth to dispose of it on the understanding that we cannot rear such an offspring.
Καὶ ταῦτα μέν γ', ἔφη, μετρίως λέγεται· πατέρας δὲ καὶ
461d θυγατέρας καὶ ἃ νυνδὴ ἔλεγες πῶς διαγνώσονται ἀλλήλων;
All that sounds reasonable, he said; but how are they to distinguish one another’s fathers and daughters, and the other degrees of kin that you have just mentioned?
Οὐδαμῶς, ἦν δ' ἐγώ· ἀλλ' ἀφ' ἧς ἂν ἡμέρας τις αὐτῶν
νυμφίος γένηται, μετ' ἐκείνην δεκάτῳ μηνὶ καὶ ἑβδόμῳ δὴ ἃ
ἂν γένηται ἔκγονα, ταῦτα πάντα προσερεῖ τὰ μὲν ἄρρενα
ὑεῖς, τὰ δὲ θήλεα θυγατέρας, καὶ ἐκεῖνα ἐκεῖνον πατέρα, καὶ
οὕτω δὴ τὰ τούτων ἔκγονα παίδων παῖδας, καὶ ἐκεῖν' αὖ
ἐκείνους πάππους τε καὶ τηθάς, τὰ δ' ἐν ἐκείνῳ τῷ χρόνῳ
γεγονότα, ἐν ᾧ αἱ μητέρες καὶ οἱ πατέρες αὐτῶν ἐγέννων,
461e ἀδελφάς τε καὶ ἀδελφούς, ὥστε, ὃ νυνδὴ ἐλέγομεν, ἀλλήλων
μὴ ἅπτεσθαι. ἀδελφοὺς δὲ καὶ ἀδελφὰς δώσει ὁ νόμος συνοικεῖν,
ἐὰν ὁ κλῆρος ταύτῃ συμπίπτῃ καὶ ἡ Πυθία προσαναιρῇ.
They won’t, said I, except that a man will call all male offspring born in the tenth and in the seventh month after he became a bridegroom his sons, and all female, daughters, and they will call him father. And, similarly, he will call their offspring his grandchildren and they will call his group grandfathers and grandmothers. And all children born in the period in which their fathers and mothers were procreating will regard one another as brothers and sisters. This will suffice for the prohibitions of intercourse of which we just now spoke. But the law will allow brothers and sisters to cohabit if the lot so falls out and the Delphic oracle approves.
Ὀρθότατα, ἦ δ' ὅς.
Quite right, said he.
Ἡ μὲν δὴ κοινωνία, ὦ Γλαύκων, αὕτη τε καὶ τοιαύτη
γυναικῶν τε καὶ παίδων τοῖς φύλαξί σοι τῆς πόλεως· ὡς
δὲ ἑπομένη τε τῇ ἄλλῃ πολιτείᾳ καὶ μακρῷ βελτίστη, δεῖ
δὴ τὸ μετὰ τοῦτο βεβαιώσασθαι παρὰ τοῦ λόγου. ἢ πῶς
ποιῶμεν;
This, then, Glaucon, is the manner of the community of wives and children among the guardians. That it is consistent with the rest of our polity and by far the best way is the next point that we must get confirmed by the argument. Is not that so?
462a Οὕτω νὴ Δία, ἦ δ' ὅς.
It is, indeed, he said.
Ἆρ' οὖν οὐχ ἥδε ἀρχὴ τῆς ὁμολογίας, ἐρέσθαι ἡμᾶς
αὐτοὺς τί ποτε τὸ μέγιστον ἀγαθὸν ἔχομεν εἰπεῖν εἰς πόλεως
κατασκευήν, οὗ δεῖ στοχαζόμενον τὸν νομοθέτην τιθέναι τοὺς
νόμους, καὶ τί μέγιστον κακόν, εἶτα ἐπισκέψασθαι ἆρα ἃ
νυνδὴ διήλθομεν εἰς μὲν τὸ τοῦ ἀγαθοῦ ἴχνος ἡμῖν ἁρμόττει,
τῷ δὲ τοῦ κακοῦ ἀναρμοστεῖ;
Is not the logical first step towards such an agreement to ask ourselves what we could name as the greatest good for the constitution of a state and the proper aim of a lawgiver in his legislation, and what would be the greatest evil, and then to consider whether the proposals we have just set forth fit into the footprints of the good and do not suit those of the evil?
Πάντων μάλιστα, ἔφη.
By all means, he said.
Ἔχομεν οὖν τι μεῖζον κακὸν πόλει ἢ ἐκεῖνο ὃ ἂν αὐτὴν
462b διασπᾷ καὶ ποιῇ πολλὰς ἀντὶ μιᾶς; ἢ μεῖζον ἀγαθὸν τοῦ ὃ
ἂν συνδῇ τε καὶ ποιῇ μίαν;
Do we know of any greater evil for a state than the thing that distracts it and makes it many instead of one, or a greater good than that which binds it together and makes it one?
Οὐκ ἔχομεν.
We do not.
Οὐκοῦν ἡ μὲν ἡδονῆς τε καὶ λύπης κοινωνία συνδεῖ, ὅταν
ὅτι μάλιστα πάντες οἱ πολῖται τῶν αὐτῶν γιγνομένων τε καὶ
ἀπολλυμένων παραπλησίως χαίρωσι καὶ λυπῶνται;
Is not, then, the community of pleasure and pain the tie that binds, when, so far as may be, all the citizens rejoice and grieve alike at the same births and deaths?
Παντάπασι μὲν οὖν, ἔφη.
By all means, he said.
Ἡ δέ γε τῶν τοιούτων ἰδίωσις διαλύει, ὅταν οἱ μὲν
περιαλγεῖς, οἱ δὲ περιχαρεῖς γίγνωνται ἐπὶ τοῖς αὐτοῖς
462c παθήμασι τῆς πόλεώς τε καὶ τῶν ἐν τῇ πόλει;
But the individualization of these feelings is a dissolvent, when some grieve exceedingly and others rejoice at the same happenings to the city and its inhabitants?
Τί δ' οὔ;
Of course.
Ἆρ' οὖν ἐκ τοῦδε τὸ τοιόνδε γίγνεται, ὅταν μὴ ἅμα φθέγγωνται
ἐν τῇ πόλει τὰ τοιάδε ῥήματα, τό τε ἐμὸν καὶ τὸ οὐκ
ἐμόν; καὶ περὶ τοῦ ἀλλοτρίου κατὰ ταὐτά;
And the chief cause of this is when the citizens do not utter in unison such words as mine and not mine, and similarly with regard to the word alien?
Κομιδῇ μὲν οὖν.
Precisely so.
Ἐν ᾗτινι δὴ πόλει πλεῖστοι ἐπὶ τὸ αὐτὸ κατὰ ταὐτὰ τοῦτο
λέγουσι τὸ ἐμὸν καὶ τὸ οὐκ ἐμόν, αὕτη ἄριστα διοικεῖται;
That city, then, is best ordered in which the greatest number use the expression mine and not mine of the same things in the same way.
Πολύ γε.
Much the best.
Καὶ ἥτις δὴ ἐγγύτατα ἑνὸς ἀνθρώπου ἔχει; οἷον ὅταν που
ἡμῶν δάκτυλός του πληγῇ, πᾶσα ἡ κοινωνία ἡ κατὰ τὸ σῶμα
πρὸς τὴν ψυχὴν τεταμένη εἰς μίαν σύνταξιν τὴν τοῦ ἄρχοντος
462d ἐν αὐτῇ ᾔσθετό τε καὶ πᾶσα ἅμα συνήλγησεν μέρους
πονήσαντος ὅλη, καὶ οὕτω δὴ λέγομεν ὅτι ὁ ἄνθρωπος τὸν
δάκτυλον ἀλγεῖ· καὶ περὶ ἄλλου ὁτουοῦν τῶν τοῦ ἀνθρώπου
ὁ αὐτὸς λόγος, περί τε λύπης πονοῦντος μέρους καὶ περὶ
ἡδονῆς ῥαΐζοντος;
And the city whose state is most like that of an individual man. For example, if the finger of one of us is wounded, the entire community of bodily connections stretching to the soul for integration with the dominant part is made aware, and all of it feels the pain as a whole, though it is a part that suffers, and that is how we come to say that the man has a pain in his finger. And for any other member of the man the same statement holds, alike for a part that labors in pain or is eased by pleasure.
Ὁ αὐτὸς γάρ, ἔφη· καὶ τοῦτο ὃ ἐρωτᾷς, τοῦ τοιούτου
ἐγγύτατα ἡ ἄριστα πολιτευομένη πόλις οἰκεῖ.
The same, he said, and, to return to your question, the best governed state most nearly resembles such an organism.
Ἑνὸς δὴ οἶμαι πάσχοντος τῶν πολιτῶν ὁτιοῦν ἢ ἀγαθὸν
462e ἢ κακὸν ἡ τοιαύτη πόλις μάλιστά τε φήσει ἑαυτῆς εἶναι τὸ
πάσχον, καὶ ἢ συνησθήσεται ἅπασα ἢ συλλυπήσεται.
That is the kind of a state, then, I presume, that, when anyone of the citizens suffers aught of good or evil, will be most likely to speak of the part that suffers as its own and will share the pleasure or the pain as a whole.
Ἀνάγκη, ἔφη, τήν γε εὔνομον.
Inevitably, he said, if it is well governed.
Ὥρα ἂν εἴη, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, ἐπανιέναι ἡμῖν ἐπὶ τὴν ἡμετέραν
πόλιν, καὶ τὰ τοῦ λόγου ὁμολογήματα σκοπεῖν ἐν αὐτῇ, εἰ
αὐτὴ μάλιστ' ἔχει εἴτε καὶ ἄλλη τις μᾶλλον.
It is time, I said, to return to our city and observe whether it, rather than any other, embodies the qualities agreed upon in our argument.
Οὐκοῦν χρή, ἔφη.
We must, he said.
463a Τί οὖν; ἔστι μέν που καὶ ἐν ταῖς ἄλλαις πόλεσιν
ἄρχοντές τε καὶ δῆμος, ἔστι δὲ καὶ ἐν ταύτῃ;
Well, then, there are to be found in other cities rulers and the people as in it, are there not?
Ἔστι.
There are.
Πολίτας μὲν δὴ πάντες οὗτοι ἀλλήλους προσεροῦσι;
Will not all these address one another as fellow-citizens?
Πῶς δ' οὔ;
Of course.
Ἀλλὰ πρὸς τῷ πολίτας τί ὁ ἐν ταῖς ἄλλαις δῆμος τοὺς
ἄρχοντας προσαγορεύει;
But in addition to citizens, what does the people in other states call its rulers.
Ἐν μὲν ταῖς πολλαῖς δεσπότας, ἐν δὲ ταῖς δημοκρατουμέναις
αὐτὸ τοὔνομα τοῦτο, ἄρχοντας.
In most cities, masters. In democratic cities, just this, rulers.
Τί δ' ὁ ἐν τῇ ἡμετέρᾳ δῆμος; πρὸς τῷ πολίτας τί τοὺς
ἄρχοντάς φησιν εἶναι;
But what of the people in our city. In addition to citizens, what do they call their rulers?
463b Σωτῆράς τε καὶ ἐπικούρους, ἔφη.
Saviors and helpers, he said.
Τί δ' οὗτοι τὸν δῆμον;
And what term do these apply to the people?
Μισθοδότας τε καὶ τροφέας.
Payers of their wage and supporters.
Οἱ δ' ἐν ταῖς ἄλλαις ἄρχοντες τοὺς δήμους;
And how do the rulers in other states denominate the populace?
Δούλους, ἔφη.
Slaves, he said.
Τί δ' οἱ ἄρχοντες ἀλλήλους;
And how do the rulers describe one another?
Συνάρχοντας, ἔφη.
Co-rulers, he said.
Τί δ' οἱ ἡμέτεροι;
And ours?
Συμφύλακας.
Co-guardians.
Ἔχεις οὖν εἰπεῖν τῶν ἀρχόντων τῶν ἐν ταῖς ἄλλαις
πόλεσιν, εἴ τίς τινα ἔχει προσειπεῖν τῶν συναρχόντων τὸν
μὲν ὡς οἰκεῖον, τὸν δ' ὡς ἀλλότριον;
Can you tell me whether any of the rulers in other states would speak of some of their co-rulers as belonging and others as outsiders?
Καὶ πολλούς γε.
Yes, many would.
Οὐκοῦν τὸν μὲν οἰκεῖον ὡς ἑαυτοῦ νομίζει τε καὶ λέγει,
463c τὸν δ' ἀλλότριον ὡς οὐχ ἑαυτοῦ;
And such a one thinks and speaks of the one that belongs as his own, doesn’t he, and of the outsider as not his own?
Οὕτω.
That is so.
Τί δὲ οἱ παρὰ σοὶ φύλακες; ἔσθ' ὅστις αὐτῶν ἔχοι ἂν
τῶν συμφυλάκων νομίσαι τινὰ ἢ προσειπεῖν ὡς ἀλλότριον;
But what of your guardians. Could any of them think or speak of his co-guardian as an outsider?
Οὐδαμῶς, ἔφη· παντὶ γὰρ ᾧ ἂν ἐντυγχάνῃ, ἢ ὡς ἀδελφῷ
ἢ ὡς ἀδελφῇ ἢ ὡς πατρὶ ἢ ὡς μητρὶ ἢ ὑεῖ ἢ θυγατρὶ ἢ
τούτων ἐκγόνοις ἢ προγόνοις νομιεῖ ἐντυγχάνειν.
By no means, he said; for no matter whom he meets, he will feel that he is meeting a brother, a sister, a father, a mother, a son, a daughter, or the offspring or forebears of these.
Κάλλιστα, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, λέγεις, ἀλλ' ἔτι καὶ τόδε εἰπέ·
πότερον αὐτοῖς τὰ ὀνόματα μόνον οἰκεῖα νομοθετήσεις, ἢ
463d καὶ τὰς πράξεις πάσας κατὰ τὰ ὀνόματα πράττειν, περί τε
τοὺς πατέρας, ὅσα νόμος περὶ πατέρας αἰδοῦς τε πέρι καὶ
κηδεμονίας καὶ τοῦ ὑπήκοον δεῖν εἶναι τῶν γονέων, ἢ μήτε
πρὸς θεῶν μήτε πρὸς ἀνθρώπων αὐτῷ ἄμεινον ἔσεσθαι, ὡς
οὔτε ὅσια οὔτε δίκαια πράττοντος ἄν, εἰ ἄλλα πράττοι ἢ
ταῦτα; αὗταί σοι ἢ ἄλλαι φῆμαι ἐξ ἁπάντων τῶν πολιτῶν
ὑμνήσουσιν εὐθὺς περὶ τὰ τῶν παίδων ὦτα καὶ περὶ πατέρων,
οὓς ἂν αὐτοῖς τις ἀποφήνῃ, καὶ περὶ τῶν ἄλλων συγγενῶν;
Excellent, said I; but tell me this further, will it be merely the names of this kinship that you have prescribed for them or must all their actions conform to the names in all customary observance toward fathers and in awe and care and obedience for parents, if they look for the favor of either gods or men, since any other behaviour would be neither just nor pious? Shall these be the unanimous oracular voices that they hear from all the people, or shall some other kind of teaching beset the ears of your children from their birth, both concerning what is due to those who are pointed out as their fathers and to their other kin?
463e Αὗται, ἔφη· γελοῖον γὰρ ἂν εἴη εἰ ἄνευ ἔργων οἰκεῖα
ὀνόματα διὰ τῶν στομάτων μόνον φθέγγοιντο.
These, he said; for it would be absurd for them merely to pronounce with their lips the names of kinship without the deeds.
Πασῶν ἄρα πόλεων μάλιστα ἐν αὐτῇ συμφωνήσουσιν
ἑνός τινος ἢ εὖ ἢ κακῶς πράττοντος ὃ νυνδὴ ἐλέγομεν τὸ
ῥῆμα, τὸ ὅτι τὸ ἐμὸν εὖ πράττει ἢ ὅτι τὸ ἐμὸν κακῶς.
Then, in this city more than in any other, when one citizen fares well or ill, men will pronounce in unison the word of which we spoke: It is mine that does well; it is mine that does ill.
Ἀληθέστατα αὖ, ἦ δ' ὅς.
That is most true, he said.
464a Οὐκοῦν μετὰ τούτου τοῦ δόγματός τε καὶ ῥήματος ἔφαμεν
συνακολουθεῖν τάς τε ἡδονὰς καὶ τὰς λύπας κοινῇ;
And did we not say that this conviction and way of speech brings with it a community in pleasures and pains?
Καὶ ὀρθῶς γε ἔφαμεν.
And rightly, too.
Οὐκοῦν μάλιστα τοῦ αὐτοῦ κοινωνήσουσιν ἡμῖν οἱ πολῖται,
ὃ δὴ ἐμὸν ὀνομάσουσιν; τούτου δὲ κοινωνοῦντες οὕτω δὴ
λύπης τε καὶ ἡδονῆς μάλιστα κοινωνίαν ἕξουσιν;
Then these citizens, above all others, will have one and the same thing in common which they will name mine, and by virtue of this communion they will have their pleasures and pains in common.
Πολύ γε.
Quite so.
Ἆρ' οὖν τούτων αἰτία πρὸς τῇ ἄλλῃ καταστάσει ἡ τῶν
γυναικῶν τε καὶ παίδων κοινωνία τοῖς φύλαξιν;
And is not the cause of this, besides the general constitution of the state, the community of wives and children among the guardians?
Πολὺ μὲν οὖν μάλιστα, ἔφη.
It will certainly be the chief cause, he said.
464b Ἀλλὰ μὴν μέγιστόν γε πόλει αὐτὸ ὡμολογήσαμεν ἀγαθόν,
ἀπεικάζοντες εὖ οἰκουμένην πόλιν σώματι πρὸς μέρος αὑτοῦ
λύπης τε πέρι καὶ ἡδονῆς ὡς ἔχει.
But we further agreed that this unity is the greatest blessing for a state, and we compared a well governed state to the human body in its relation to the pleasure and pain of its parts.
Καὶ ὀρθῶς γ', ἔφη, ὡμολογήσαμεν.
And we were right in so agreeing.
Τοῦ μεγίστου ἄρα ἀγαθοῦ τῇ πόλει αἰτία ἡμῖν πέφανται
ἡ κοινωνία τοῖς ἐπικούροις τῶν τε παίδων καὶ τῶν γυναικῶν.
Then it is the greatest blessing for a state of which the community of women and children among the helpers has been shown to be the cause.
Καὶ μάλ', ἔφη.
Quite so, he said.
Καὶ μὲν δὴ καὶ τοῖς πρόσθεν γε ὁμολογοῦμεν· ἔφαμεν
γάρ που οὔτε οἰκίας τούτοις ἰδίας δεῖν εἶναι οὔτε γῆν οὔτε
464c τι κτῆμα, ἀλλὰ παρὰ τῶν ἄλλων τροφὴν λαμβάνοντας,
μισθὸν τῆς φυλακῆς, κοινῇ πάντας ἀναλίσκειν, εἰ μέλλοιεν
ὄντως φύλακες εἶναι.
And this is consistent with what we said before. For we said, I believe, that these helpers must not possess houses of their own or land or any other property, but that they should receive from the other citizens for their support the wage of their guardianship and all spend it in common. That was the condition of their being true guardians.
Ὀρθῶς, ἔφη.
Right, he said.
Ἆρ' οὖν οὐχ, ὅπερ λέγω, τά τε πρόσθεν εἰρημένα καὶ τὰ
νῦν λεγόμενα ἔτι μᾶλλον ἀπεργάζεται αὐτοὺς ἀληθινοὺς
φύλακας, καὶ ποιεῖ μὴ διασπᾶν τὴν πόλιν τὸ ἐμὸν ὀνομάζοντας
μὴ τὸ αὐτὸ ἀλλ' ἄλλον ἄλλο, τὸν μὲν εἰς τὴν ἑαυτοῦ
οἰκίαν ἕλκοντα ὅτι ἂν δύνηται χωρὶς τῶν ἄλλων κτήσασθαι,
464d τὸν δὲ εἰς τὴν ἑαυτοῦ ἑτέραν οὖσαν, καὶ γυναῖκά τε καὶ
παῖδας ἑτέρους, ἡδονάς τε καὶ ἀλγηδόνας ἐμποιοῦντας ἰδίων
ὄντων ἰδίας, ἀλλ' ἑνὶ δόγματι τοῦ οἰκείου πέρι ἐπὶ τὸ αὐτὸ
τείνοντας πάντας εἰς τὸ δυνατὸν ὁμοπαθεῖς λύπης τε καὶ
ἡδονῆς εἶναι;
Is it not true, then, as I am trying to say, that those former and these present prescriptions tend to make them still more truly guardians and prevent them from distracting the city by referring mine not to the same but to different things, one man dragging off to his own house anything he is able to acquire apart from the rest, and another doing the same to his own separate house, and having women and children apart, thus introducing into the state the pleasures and pains of individuals? They should all rather, we said, share one conviction about their own, tend to one goal, and so far as practicable have one experience of pleasure and pain.
Κομιδῇ μὲν οὖν, ἔφη.
By all means, he said.
Τί δέ; δίκαι τε καὶ ἐγκλήματα πρὸς ἀλλήλους οὐκ
οἰχήσεται ἐξ αὐτῶν ὡς ἔπος εἰπεῖν διὰ τὸ μηδὲν ἴδιον
ἐκτῆσθαι πλὴν τὸ σῶμα, τὰ δ' ἄλλα κοινά; ὅθεν δὴ ὑπάρχει
464e τούτοις ἀστασιάστοις εἶναι, ὅσα γε διὰ χρημάτων ἢ παίδων
καὶ συγγενῶν κτῆσιν ἄνθρωποι στασιάζουσιν;
Then will not law-suits and accusations against one another vanish, one may say, from among them, because they have nothing in private possession but their bodies, but all else in common? So that we can count on their being free from the dissensions that arise among men from the possession of property, children, and kin.
Πολλὴ ἀνάγκη, ἔφη, ἀπηλλάχθαι.
They will necessarily be quit of these, he said.
Καὶ μὴν οὐδὲ βιαίων γε οὐδ' αἰκίας δίκαι δικαίως ἂν
εἶεν ἐν αὐτοῖς· ἥλιξι μὲν γὰρ ἥλικας ἀμύνεσθαι καλὸν καὶ
δίκαιόν που φήσομεν, ἀνάγκην σωμάτων ἐπιμελείᾳ τιθέντες.
And again, there could not rightly arise among them any law-suit for assault or bodily injury. For as between age-fellows we shall say that self-defence is honorable and just, thereby compelling them to keep their bodies in condition.
Ὀρθῶς, ἔφη.
Right, he said.
465a Καὶ γὰρ τόδε ὀρθὸν ἔχει, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, οὗτος ὁ νόμος· εἴ
πού τίς τῳ θυμοῖτο, ἐν τῷ τοιούτῳ πληρῶν τὸν θυμὸν ἧττον
ἐπὶ μείζους ἂν ἴοι στάσεις.
And there will be the further advantage in such a law that an angry man, satisfying his anger in such wise, would be less likely to carry the quarrel to further extremes.
Πάνυ μὲν οὖν.
Assuredly.
Πρεσβυτέρῳ μὴν νεωτέρων πάντων ἄρχειν τε καὶ κολάζειν
προστετάξεται.
As for an older man, he will always have the charge of ruling and chastising the younger.
Δῆλον.
Obviously.
Καὶ μὴν ὅτι γε νεώτερος πρεσβύτερον, ἂν μὴ ἄρχοντες
προστάττωσιν, οὔτε ἄλλο βιάζεσθαι ἐπιχειρήσει ποτὲ οὔτε
τύπτειν, ὡς τὸ εἰκός. οἶμαι δ' οὐδὲ ἄλλως ἀτιμάσει· ἱκανὼ
γὰρ τὼ φύλακε κωλύοντε, δέος τε καὶ αἰδώς, αἰδὼς μὲν ὡς
465b γονέων μὴ ἅπτεσθαι εἴργουσα, δέος δὲ τὸ τῷ πάσχοντι τοὺς
ἄλλους βοηθεῖν, τοὺς μὲν ὡς ὑεῖς, τοὺς δὲ ὡς ἀδελφούς,
τοὺς δὲ ὡς πατέρας.
Again, it is plain that the young man, except by command of the rulers, will probably not do violence to an elder or strike him, or, I take it, dishonor him in any other way. Two guardians sufficient to prevent that there are, fear and awe, awe restraining him from laying hands on one who may be his parent, and fear in that the others will rush to the aid of the sufferer, some as sons, some as brothers, some as fathers.
Συμβαίνει γὰρ οὕτως, ἔφη.
That is the way it works out, he said.
Πανταχῇ δὴ ἐκ τῶν νόμων εἰρήνην πρὸς ἀλλήλους οἱ
ἄνδρες ἄξουσι;
Then in all cases the laws will leave these men to dwell in peace together.
Πολλήν γε.
Great peace.
Τούτων μὴν ἐν ἑαυτοῖς μὴ στασιαζόντων οὐδὲν δεινὸν
μή ποτε ἡ ἄλλη πόλις πρὸς τούτους ἢ πρὸς ἀλλήλους
διχοστατήσῃ.
And if these are free from dissensions among themselves, there is no fear that the rest of the city will ever start faction against them or with one another.
Οὐ γὰρ οὖν.
Τά γε μὴν σμικρότατα τῶν κακῶν δι' ἀπρέπειαν ὀκνῶ
465c καὶ λέγειν, ὧν ἀπηλλαγμένοι ἂν εἶεν, κολακείας τε πλουσίων
πένητες ἀπορίας τε καὶ ἀλγηδόνας ὅσας ἐν παιδοτροφίᾳ
καὶ χρηματισμοῖς διὰ τροφὴν οἰκετῶν ἀναγκαίαν ἴσχουσι,
τὰ μὲν δανειζόμενοι, τὰ δ' ἐξαρνούμενοι, τὰ δὲ πάντως
πορισάμενοι θέμενοι παρὰ γυναῖκάς τε καὶ οἰκέτας, ταμιεύειν
παραδόντες, ὅσα τε, ὦ φίλε, περὶ αὐτὰ καὶ οἷα πάσχουσι,
δῆλά τε δὴ καὶ ἀγεννῆ καὶ οὐκ ἄξια λέγειν.
No, there is not. But I hesitate, so unseemly are they, even to mention the pettiest troubles of which they would be rid, the flatterings of the rich, the embarrassments and pains of the poor in the bringing-up of their children and the procuring of money for the necessities of life for their households, the borrowings, the repudiations, all the devices with which they acquire what they deposit with wives and servitors to husband, and all the indignities that they endure in such matters, which are obvious and ignoble and not deserving of mention.
465d Δῆλα γάρ, ἔφη, καὶ τυφλῷ.
Even a blind man can see these, he said.
Πάντων τε δὴ τούτων ἀπαλλάξονται, ζήσουσί τε τοῦ
μακαριστοῦ βίου ὃν οἱ ὀλυμπιονῖκαι ζῶσι μακαριώτερον.
From all these, then, they will be finally free, and they will live a happier life than that men count most happy, the life of the victors at Olympia.
Πῇ;
How so?
Διὰ σμικρόν που μέρος εὐδαιμονίζονται ἐκεῖνοι ὧν τούτοις
ὑπάρχει. ἥ τε γὰρ τῶνδε νίκη καλλίων, ἥ τ' ἐκ τοῦ δημοσίου
τροφὴ τελεωτέρα. νίκην τε γὰρ νικῶσι συμπάσης
τῆς πόλεως σωτηρίαν, τροφῇ τε καὶ τοῖς ἄλλοις πᾶσιν ὅσων
βίος δεῖται αὐτοί τε καὶ παῖδες ἀναδοῦνται, καὶ γέρα δέχονται
465e παρὰ τῆς αὑτῶν πόλεως ζῶντές τε καὶ τελευτήσαντες ταφῆς
ἀξίας μετέχουσιν.
The things for which those are felicitated are a small part of what is secured for these. Their victory is fairer and their public support more complete. For the prize of victory that they win is the salvation of the entire state, the fillet that binds their brows is the public support of themselves and their children— they receive honor from the city while they live and when they die a worthy burial.
Καὶ μάλα, ἔφη, καλά.
A fair guerdon, indeed, he said.
Μέμνησαι οὖν, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, ὅτι ἐν τοῖς πρόσθεν οὐκ οἶδα
ὅτου λόγος ἡμῖν ἐπέπληξεν ὅτι τοὺς φύλακας οὐκ εὐδαίμονας
466a ποιοῖμεν, οἷς ἐξὸν πάντα ἔχειν τὰ τῶν πολιτῶν οὐδὲν
ἔχοιεν; ἡμεῖς δέ που εἴπομεν ὅτι τοῦτο μέν, εἴ που παραπίπτοι,
εἰς αὖθις σκεψοίμεθα, νῦν δὲ τοὺς μὲν φύλακας
φύλακας ποιοῖμεν, τὴν δὲ πόλιν ὡς οἷοί τ' εἶμεν εὐδαιμονεστάτην,
ἀλλ' οὐκ εἰς ἓν ἔθνος ἀποβλέποντες ἐν αὐτῇ
τοῦτο εὔδαιμον πλάττοιμεν;
Do you recall, said I, that in the preceding argument the objection of somebody or other rebuked us for not making our guardians happy, since, though it was in their power to have everything of the citizens, they had nothing, and we, I believe, replied that this was a consideration to which we would return if occasion offered, but that at present we were making our guardians guardians and the city as a whole as happy as possible, and that we were not modelling our ideal of happiness with reference to any one class?
Μέμνημαι, ἔφη.
I do remember, he said.
Τί οὖν; νῦν ἡμῖν ὁ τῶν ἐπικούρων βίος, εἴπερ τοῦ γε
τῶν ὀλυμπιονικῶν πολύ τε καλλίων καὶ ἀμείνων φαίνεται,
466b μή πῃ κατὰ τὸν τῶν σκυτοτόμων φαίνεται βίον ἤ τινων
ἄλλων δημιουργῶν ἢ τὸν τῶν γεωργῶν;
Well then, since now the life of our helpers has been shown to be fairer and better than that of the victors at Olympia, need we compare it with the life of cobblers and other craftsmen and farmers?
Οὔ μοι δοκεῖ, ἔφη.
I think not, he said.
Ἀλλὰ μέντοι, ὅ γε καὶ ἐκεῖ ἔλεγον, δίκαιον καὶ ἐνταῦθα
εἰπεῖν, ὅτι εἰ οὕτως ὁ φύλαξ ἐπιχειρήσει εὐδαίμων γίγνεσθαι,
ὥστε μηδὲ φύλαξ εἶναι, μηδ' ἀρκέσει αὐτῷ βίος οὕτω μέτριος
καὶ βέβαιος καὶ ὡς ἡμεῖς φαμεν ἄριστος, ἀλλ' ἀνόητός τε
καὶ μειρακιώδης δόξα ἐμπεσοῦσα εὐδαιμονίας πέρι ὁρμήσει
466c αὐτὸν διὰ δύναμιν ἐπὶ τὸ ἅπαντα τὰ ἐν τῇ πόλει οἰκειοῦσθαι,
γνώσεται τὸν Ἡσίοδον ὅτι τῷ ὄντι ἦν σοφὸς λέγων πλέον
εἶναί πως ἥμισυ παντός.
But further, we may fairly repeat what I was saying then also, that if the guardian shall strive for a kind of happiness that will unmake him as a guardian and shall not be content with the way of life that is moderate and secure and, as we affirm, the best, but if some senseless and childish opinion about happiness shall beset him and impel him to use his power to appropriate everything in the city for himself, then he will find out that Hesiod was indeed wise, who said that the half was in some sort more than the whole. Hes. WD 40
Ἐμοὶ μέν, ἔφη, συμβούλῳ χρώμενος μενεῖ ἐπὶ τούτῳ τῷ
βίῳ.
If he accepts my counsel, he said, he will abide in this way of life.
Συγχωρεῖς ἄρα, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, τὴν τῶν γυναικῶν κοινωνίαν
τοῖς ἀνδράσιν, ἣν διεληλύθαμεν, παιδείας τε πέρι καὶ
παίδων καὶ φυλακῆς τῶν ἄλλων πολιτῶν, κατά τε πόλιν
μενούσας εἰς πόλεμόν τε ἰούσας καὶ συμφυλάττειν δεῖν καὶ
466d συνθηρεύειν ὥσπερ κύνας, καὶ πάντα πάντῃ κατὰ τὸ δυνατὸν
κοινωνεῖν, καὶ ταῦτα πραττούσας τά τε βέλτιστα πράξειν καὶ
οὐ παρὰ φύσιν τὴν τοῦ θήλεος πρὸς τὸ ἄρρεν, ᾗ πεφύκατον
πρὸς ἀλλήλω κοινωνεῖν;
You accept, then, as we have described it, this partnership of the women with our men in the matter of education and children and the guardianship of the other citizens, and you admit that both within the city and when they go forth to war they ought to keep guard together and hunt together as it were like hounds, and have all things in every way, so far as possible, in common, and that so doing they will do what is for the best and nothing that is contrary to female human nature in comparison with male or to their natural fellowship with one another.
Συγχωρῶ, ἔφη.
I do admit it, he said.
Οὐκοῦν, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, ἐκεῖνο λοιπὸν διελέσθαι, εἰ ἄρα καὶ
ἐν ἀνθρώποις δυνατόν, ὥσπερ ἐν ἄλλοις ζῴοις, ταύτην τὴν
κοινωνίαν ἐγγενέσθαι, καὶ ὅπῃ δυνατόν;
Then, I said, is not the thing that it remains to determine this, whether, namely, it is possible for such a community to be brought about among men as it is in the other animals, and in what way it is possible?
Ἔφθης, ἔφη, εἰπὼν ᾗ ἔμελλον ὑπολήψεσθαι.
You have anticipated, he said, the point I was about to raise.
466e Περὶ μὲν γὰρ τῶν ἐν τῷ πολέμῳ οἶμαι, ἔφην, δῆλον ὃν
τρόπον πολεμήσουσιν.
For as for their wars, I said, the manner in which they will conduct them is too obvious for discussion.
Πῶς; ἦ δ' ὅς.
How so, said he.
Ὅτι κοινῇ στρατεύσονται, καὶ πρός γε ἄξουσι τῶν
παίδων εἰς τὸν πόλεμον ὅσοι ἁδροί, ἵν' ὥσπερ οἱ τῶν ἄλλων
δημιουργῶν θεῶνται ταῦτα ἃ τελεωθέντας δεήσει δημιουργεῖν·
467a πρὸς δὲ τῇ θέᾳ διακονεῖν καὶ ὑπηρετεῖν πάντα τὰ περὶ τὸν
πόλεμον, καὶ θεραπεύειν πατέρας τε καὶ μητέρας. ἢ οὐκ
ᾔσθησαι τὰ περὶ τὰς τέχνας, οἷον τοὺς τῶν κεραμέων παῖδας,
ὡς πολὺν χρόνον διακονοῦντες θεωροῦσι πρὶν ἅπτεσθαι τοῦ
κεραμεύειν;
It is obvious that they will march out together, and, what is more, will conduct their children to war when they are sturdy, in order that, like the children of other craftsmen, they may observe the processes of which they must be masters in their maturity;
and in addition to looking on they must assist and minister in all the business of war and serve their fathers and mothers. Or have you never noticed the practice in the arts, how for example the sons of potters look on as helpers a long time before they put their hands to the clay?
Καὶ μάλα.
They do, indeed.
Ἦ οὖν ἐκείνοις ἐπιμελέστερον παιδευτέον ἢ τοῖς φύλαξι
τοὺς αὑτῶν ἐμπειρίᾳ τε καὶ θέᾳ τῶν προσηκόντων;
Should these then be more concerned than our guardians to train the children by observation and experience of what is to be their proper business?
Καταγέλαστον μεντἄν, ἔφη, εἴη.
That would be ridiculous, he said.
Ἀλλὰ μὴν καὶ μαχεῖταί γε πᾶν ζῷον διαφερόντως
467b παρόντων ὧν ἂν τέκῃ.
But, further, when it comes to fighting, every creature will do better in the presence of its offspring?
Ἔστιν οὕτω. κίνδυνος δέ, ὦ Σώκρατες, οὐ σμικρὸς
σφαλεῖσιν, οἷα δὴ ἐν πολέμῳ φιλεῖ, πρὸς ἑαυτοῖς παῖδας ἀπολέσαντας
ποιῆσαι καὶ τὴν ἄλλην πόλιν ἀδύνατον ἀναλαβεῖν.
That is so, but the risk, Socrates, is not slight, in the event of disasters such as may happen in war, that, losing their children as well as themselves, they make it impossible for the remnant of the state to recover.
Ἀληθῆ, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, λέγεις. ἀλλὰ σὺ πρῶτον μὲν ἡγῇ
παρασκευαστέον τὸ μή ποτε κινδυνεῦσαι;
What you say is true, I replied; but, in the first place, is it your idea that the one thing for which we must provide is the avoidance of all danger?
Οὐδαμῶς.
By no means.
Τί δ'; εἴ που κινδυνευτέον, οὐκ ἐν ᾧ βελτίους ἔσονται
κατορθοῦντες;
Δῆλον δή.
And, if they are to take chances, should it not be for something success in which will make them better? Clearly.
467c Ἀλλὰ σμικρὸν οἴει διαφέρειν καὶ οὐκ ἄξιον κινδύνου
θεωρεῖν ἢ μὴ τὰ περὶ τὸν πόλεμον παῖδας τοὺς ἄνδρας
πολεμικοὺς ἐσομένους;
Do you think it makes a slight difference and not worth some risk whether men who are to be warriors do or do not observe war as boys?
Οὔκ, ἀλλὰ διαφέρει πρὸς ὃ λέγεις.
No, it makes a great difference for the purpose of which you speak.
Τοῦτο μὲν ἄρα ὑπαρκτέον, θεωροὺς πολέμου τοὺς παῖδας
ποιεῖν, προσμηχανᾶσθαι δ' αὐτοῖς ἀσφάλειαν, καὶ καλῶς
ἕξει· ἦ γάρ;
Starting, then, from this assumption that we are to make the boys spectators of war, we must further contrive security for them and all will be well, will it not?
Ναί.
Yes.
Οὐκοῦν, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, πρῶτον μὲν αὐτῶν οἱ πατέρες,
ὅσα ἄνθρωποι, οὐκ ἀμαθεῖς ἔσονται ἀλλὰ γνωμονικοὶ τῶν
467d στρατειῶν ὅσαι τε καὶ μὴ ἐπικίνδυνοι;
To begin with, then, said I, will not the fathers be, humanly speaking, not ignorant of war and shrewd judges of which campaigns are hazardous and which not?
Εἰκός, ἔφη.
Presumably, he said.
Εἰς μὲν ἄρα τὰς ἄξουσιν, εἰς δὲ τὰς εὐλαβήσονται.
They will take the boys with them to the one and avoid the others?
Ὀρθῶς.
Rightly.
Καὶ ἄρχοντάς γέ που, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, οὐ τοὺς φαυλοτάτους
αὐτοῖς ἐπιστήσουσιν ἀλλὰ τοὺς ἐμπειρίᾳ τε καὶ ἡλικίᾳ
ἱκανοὺς ἡγεμόνας τε καὶ παιδαγωγοὺς εἶναι.
And for officers, I presume, said I, they will put in charge of them not those who are good for nothing else but men who by age and experience are qualified to serve at once as leaders and as caretakers of children.
Πρέπει γάρ.
Yes, that would be the proper way.
Ἀλλὰ γάρ, φήσομεν, καὶ παρὰ δόξαν πολλὰ πολλοῖς δὴ
ἐγένετο.
Still, we may object, it is the unexpected that happens to many in many cases.
Καὶ μάλα.
Yes, indeed.
Πρὸς τοίνυν τὰ τοιαῦτα, ὦ φίλε, πτεροῦν χρὴ παιδία
ὄντα εὐθύς, ἵν', ἄν τι δέῃ, πετόμενοι ἀποφεύγωσιν.
To provide against such chances, then, we must wing the children from the start so that if need arises they may fly away and escape.
467e Πῶς λέγεις; ἔφη.
What do you mean? he said.
Ἐπὶ τοὺς ἵππους, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, ἀναβιβαστέον ὡς νεωτάτους,
καὶ διδαξαμένους ἱππεύειν ἐφ' ἵππων ἀκτέον ἐπὶ τὴν θέαν,
μὴ θυμοειδῶν μηδὲ μαχητικῶν, ἀλλ' ὅτι ποδωκεστάτων καὶ
εὐηνιωτάτων. οὕτω γὰρ κάλλιστά τε θεάσονται τὸ αὑτῶν
ἔργον, καὶ ἀσφαλέστατα, ἄν τι δέῃ, σωθήσονται μετὰ
πρεσβυτέρων ἡγεμόνων ἑπόμενοι.
We must mount them when very young, said I, and first have them taught to ride, and then conduct them to the scene of war, not on mettlesome war-steeds, but on the swiftest and gentlest horses possible; for thus they will have the best view of their own future business and also, if need arises, will most securely escape to safety in the train of elder guides.
Ὀρθῶς, ἔφη, μοι δοκεῖς λέγειν.
I think you are right, he said.
468a Τί δὲ δή, εἶπον, τὰ περὶ τὸν πόλεμον; πῶς ἑκτέον σοι
τοὺς στρατιώτας πρὸς αὑτούς τε καὶ τοὺς πολεμίους; ἆρ'
ὀρθῶς μοι καταφαίνεται ἢ οὔ;
But now what of the conduct of war? What should be the attitude of the soldiers to one another and the enemy? Am I right in my notions or not?
Λέγ', ἔφη, ποῖ' αὖ.
Tell me what notions, he said.
Αὐτῶν μέν, εἶπον, τὸν λιπόντα τάξιν ἢ ὅπλα ἀποβαλόντα
ἤ τι τῶν τοιούτων ποιήσαντα διὰ κάκην ἆρα οὐ δημιουργόν
τινα δεῖ καθιστάναι ἢ γεωργόν;
Anyone of them who deserts his post, or flings away his weapons, or is guilty of any similar act of cowardice, should be reduced to the artisan or farmer class, should he not?
Πάνυ μὲν οὖν.
By all means.
Τὸν δὲ ζῶντα εἰς τοὺς πολεμίους ἁλόντα ἆρ' οὐ δωρεὰν
διδόναι τοῖς ἑλοῦσι χρῆσθαι τῇ ἄγρᾳ ὅτι ἂν βούλωνται;
And anyone who is taken alive by the enemy we will make a present of to his captors, shall we not, to deal with their catch as they please?
468b Κομιδῇ γε.
Quite so.
Τὸν δὲ ἀριστεύσαντά τε καὶ εὐδοκιμήσαντα οὐ πρῶτον
μὲν ἐπὶ στρατιᾶς ὑπὸ τῶν συστρατευομένων μειρακίων τε
καὶ παίδων ἐν μέρει ὑπὸ ἑκάστου δοκεῖ σοι χρῆναι στεφανωθῆναι;
ἢ οὔ;
And don’t you agree that the one who wins the prize of valor and distinguishes himself shall first be crowned by his fellows in the campaign, by the lads and boys each in turn?
Ἔμοιγε.
I do.
Τί δέ; δεξιωθῆναι;
And be greeted with the right hand?
Καὶ τοῦτο.
That, too.
Ἀλλὰ τόδ' οἶμαι, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, οὐκέτι σοι δοκεῖ.
But I presume you wouldn’t go as far as this?
Τὸ ποῖον;
What?
Τὸ φιλῆσαί τε καὶ φιληθῆναι ὑπὸ ἑκάστου.
That he should kiss and be kissed by everyone?
Πάντων, ἔφη, μάλιστα· καὶ προστίθημί γε τῷ νόμῳ,
468c ἕως ἂν ἐπὶ ταύτης ὦσι τῆς στρατιᾶς, καὶ μηδενὶ ἐξεῖναι
ἀπαρνηθῆναι ὃν ἂν βούληται φιλεῖν, ἵνα καί, ἐάν τίς του
τύχῃ ἐρῶν ἢ ἄρρενος ἢ θηλείας, προθυμότερος ᾖ πρὸς τὸ
τἀριστεῖα φέρειν.
By all means, he said, and I add to the law the provision that during that campaign none whom he wishes to kiss be allowed to refuse, so that if one is in love with anyone, male or female, he may be the more eager to win the prize.
Καλῶς, ἦν δ' ἐγώ. ὅτι μὲν γὰρ ἀγαθῷ ὄντι γάμοι τε
ἕτοιμοι πλείους ἢ τοῖς ἄλλοις καὶ αἱρέσεις τῶν τοιούτων
πολλάκις παρὰ τοὺς ἄλλους ἔσονται, ἵν' ὅτι πλεῖστοι ἐκ
τοῦ τοιούτου γίγνωνται, εἴρηται ἤδη.
Excellent, said I, and we have already said that the opportunity of marriage will be more readily provided for the good man, and that he will be more frequently selected than the others for participation in that sort of thing, in order that as many children as possible may be born from such stock.
Εἴπομεν γάρ, ἔφη.
We have, he replied.
Ἀλλὰ μὴν καὶ καθ' Ὅμηρον τοῖς τοιοῖσδε δίκαιον τιμᾶν
468d τῶν νέων ὅσοι ἀγαθοί. καὶ γὰρ Ὅμηρος τὸν εὐδοκιμήσαντα
ἐν τῷ πολέμῳ νώτοισιν Αἴαντα ἔφη διηνεκέεσσι
γεραίρεσθαι, ὡς ταύτην οἰκείαν οὖσαν τιμὴν τῷ ἡβῶντί
τε καὶ ἀνδρείῳ, ἐξ ἧς ἅμα τῷ τιμᾶσθαι καὶ τὴν ἰσχὺν
αὐξήσει.
But, furthermore, we may cite Homer too for the justice of honoring in such ways the valiant among our youth. For Homer says that Ajax, who had distinguished himself in the war, was honored with the long chine, assuming that the most fitting meed for a brave man in the prime of his youth is that from which both honor and strength will accrue to him.
Ὀρθότατα, ἔφη.
Most rightly, he said.
Πεισόμεθα ἄρα, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, ταῦτά γε Ὁμήρῳ. καὶ γὰρ
ἡμεῖς ἔν τε θυσίαις καὶ τοῖς τοιούτοις πᾶσι τοὺς ἀγαθούς,
καθ' ὅσον ἂν ἀγαθοὶ φαίνωνται, καὶ ὕμνοις καὶ οἷς νυνδὴ
ἐλέγομεν τιμήσομεν, πρὸς δὲ τούτοις ἕδραις τε καὶ κρέασιν
468e ἰδὲ πλείοις δεπάεσσιν, ἵνα ἅμα τῷ τιμᾶν ἀσκῶμεν
τοὺς ἀγαθοὺς ἄνδρας τε καὶ γυναῖκας.
We will then, said I, take Homer as our guide in this at least. We, too, at sacrifices and on other like occasions, will reward the good so far as they have proved themselves good with hymns and the other privileges of which we have just spoken, and also with seats of honor and meat and full cups Hom. Il. 8.162, so as to combine physical training with honor for the good, both men and women.
Κάλλιστα, ἔφη, λέγεις.
Nothing could be better, he said.
Εἶεν· τῶν δὲ δὴ ἀποθανόντων ἐπὶ στρατιᾶς ὃς ἂν εὐδοκιμήσας
τελευτήσῃ ἆρ' οὐ πρῶτον μὲν φήσομεν τοῦ χρυσοῦ
γένους εἶναι;
Very well; and of those who die on campaign, if anyone’s death has been especially glorious, shall we not, to begin with, affirm that he belongs to the golden race?
Πάντων γε μάλιστα.
By all means.
Ἀλλ' οὐ πεισόμεθα Ἡσιόδῳ, ἐπειδάν τινες τοῦ τοιούτου
γένους τελευτήσωσιν, ὡς ἄρα—
469a οἱ μὲν δαίμονες ἁγνοὶ ἐπιχθόνιοι τελέθουσιν,
ἐσθλοί, ἀλεξίκακοι, φύλακες μερόπων ἀνθρώπων;
And shall we not believe Hesiod who tells us that when anyone of this race dies, so it is that they become Hallowed spirits dwelling on earth, averters of evil, Guardians watchful and good of articulate-speaking mortals? Hes. WD 121
Πεισόμεθα μὲν οὖν.
We certainly shall believe him.
Διαπυθόμενοι ἄρα τοῦ θεοῦ πῶς χρὴ τοὺς δαιμονίους
τε καὶ θείους τιθέναι καὶ τίνι διαφόρῳ, οὕτω καὶ ταύτῃ
θήσομεν ᾗ ἂν ἐξηγῆται;
We will inquire of Apollo, then, how and with what distinction we are to bury men of more than human, of divine, qualities, and deal with them according to his response.
Τί δ' οὐ μέλλομεν;
How can we do otherwise?
Καὶ τὸν λοιπὸν δὴ χρόνον ὡς δαιμόνων, οὕτω θεραπεύσομέν
469b τε καὶ προσκυνήσομεν αὐτῶν τὰς θήκας; ταὐτὰ δὲ
ταῦτα νομιοῦμεν ὅταν τις γήρᾳ ἤ τινι ἄλλῳ τρόπῳ τελευτήσῃ
τῶν ὅσοι ἂν διαφερόντως ἐν τῷ βίῳ ἀγαθοὶ κριθῶσιν;
And ever after we will bestow on their graves the tendance and worship paid to spirits divine. And we will practice the same observance when any who have been adjudged exceptionally good in the ordinary course of life die of old age or otherwise.
Δίκαιον γοῦν, ἔφη.
That will surely be right, he said.
Τί δέ; πρὸς τοὺς πολεμίους πῶς ποιήσουσιν ἡμῖν οἱ
στρατιῶται;
But again, how will our soldiers conduct themselves toward enemies?
Τὸ ποῖον δή;
In what respect?
Πρῶτον μὲν ἀνδραποδισμοῦ πέρι, δοκεῖ δίκαιον Ἕλληνας
Ἑλληνίδας πόλεις ἀνδραποδίζεσθαι, ἢ μηδ' ἄλλῃ ἐπιτρέπειν
κατὰ τὸ δυνατὸν καὶ τοῦτο ἐθίζειν, τοῦ Ἑλληνικοῦ
469c γένους φείδεσθαι, εὐλαβουμένους τὴν ὑπὸ τῶν βαρβάρων
δουλείαν;
First, in the matter of making slaves of the defeated, do you think it right for Greeks to reduce Greek cities to slavery, or rather that so far as they are able, they should not suffer any other city to do so, but should accustom Greeks to spare Greeks, foreseeing the danger of enslavement by the barbarians?
Ὅλῳ καὶ παντί, ἔφη, διαφέρει τὸ φείδεσθαι.
Sparing them is wholly and altogether the better, said he.
Μηδὲ Ἕλληνα ἄρα δοῦλον ἐκτῆσθαι μήτε αὐτούς, τοῖς τε
ἄλλοις Ἕλλησιν οὕτω συμβουλεύειν;
They are not, then, themselves to own Greek slaves, either, and they should advise the other Greeks not to?
Πάνυ μὲν οὖν, ἔφη· μᾶλλόν γ' ἂν οὖν οὕτω πρὸς τοὺς
βαρβάρους τρέποιντο, ἑαυτῶν δ' ἀπέχοιντο.
By all means, he said; at any rate in that way they would be more likely to turn against the barbarians and keep their hands from one another.
Τί δέ; σκυλεύειν, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, τοὺς τελευτήσαντας πλὴν
ὅπλων, ἐπειδὰν νικήσωσιν, ἦ καλῶς ἔχει; ἢ οὐ πρόφασιν
469d μὲν τοῖς δειλοῖς ἔχει μὴ πρὸς τὸν μαχόμενον ἰέναι, ὥς τι
τῶν δεόντων δρῶντας ὅταν περὶ τὸν τεθνεῶτα κυπτάζωσι,
πολλὰ δὲ ἤδη στρατόπεδα διὰ τὴν τοιαύτην ἁρπαγὴν
ἀπώλετο;
And how about stripping the dead after victory of anything except their weapons: is that well? Does it not furnish a pretext to cowards not to advance on the living foe, as if they were doing something needful when poking about the dead? Has not this snatching at the spoils ere new destroyed many an army?
Καὶ μάλα.
Yes, indeed.
Ἀνελεύθερον δὲ οὐ δοκεῖ καὶ φιλοχρήματον νεκρὸν συλᾶν,
καὶ γυναικείας τε καὶ σμικρᾶς διανοίας τὸ πολέμιον νομίζειν
τὸ σῶμα τοῦ τεθνεῶτος ἀποπταμένου τοῦ ἐχθροῦ, λελοιπότος
δὲ ᾧ ἐπολέμει; ἢ οἴει τι διάφορον δρᾶν τοὺς τοῦτο
469e ποιοῦντας τῶν κυνῶν, αἳ τοῖς λίθοις οἷς ἂν βληθῶσι
χαλεπαίνουσι, τοῦ βάλλοντος οὐχ ἁπτόμεναι;
And don’t you think it illiberal and greedy to plunder a corpse, and is it not the mark of a womanish and petty spirit to deem the body of the dead an enemy when the real foeman has flown away and left behind only the instrument with which he fought? Do you see any difference between such conduct and that of the dogs who snarl at the stones that hit them but don’t touch the thrower?
Οὐδὲ σμικρόν, ἔφη.
Not the slightest.
Ἐατέον ἄρα τὰς νεκροσυλίας καὶ τὰς τῶν ἀναιρέσεων
διακωλύσεις;
We must abandon, then, the plundering of corpses and the refusal to permit their burial.
Ἐατέον μέντοι, ἔφη, νὴ Δία.
By heaven, we certainly must, he said.
Οὐδὲ μήν που πρὸς τὰ ἱερὰ τὰ ὅπλα οἴσομεν ὡς ἀναθήσοντες,
ἄλλως τε καὶ τὰ τῶν Ἑλλήνων, ἐάν τι ἡμῖν μέλῃ
470a τῆς πρὸς τοὺς ἄλλους Ἕλληνας εὐνοίας· μᾶλλον δὲ καὶ
φοβησόμεθα μή τι μίασμα ᾖ πρὸς ἱερὸν τὰ τοιαῦτα ἀπὸ
τῶν οἰκείων φέρειν, ἐὰν μή τι δὴ ὁ θεὸς ἄλλο λέγῃ.
And again, we will not take weapons to the temples for dedicatory offerings, especially the weapons of Greeks, if we are at all concerned to preserve friendly relations with the other Greeks. Rather we shall fear that there is pollution in bringing such offerings to the temples from our kind unless in a case where the god bids otherwise.
Ὀρθότατα, ἔφη.
Most rightly, he said.
Τί δὲ γῆς τε τμήσεως τῆς Ἑλληνικῆς καὶ οἰκιῶν ἐμπρήσεως;
ποῖόν τί σοι δράσουσιν οἱ στρατιῶται πρὸς τοὺς
πολεμίους;
And in the matter of devastating the land of Greeks and burning their houses, how will your soldiers deal with their enemies.
Σοῦ, ἔφη, δόξαν ἀποφαινομένου ἡδέως ἂν ἀκούσαιμι.
I would gladly hear your opinion of that.
Ἐμοὶ μὲν τοίνυν, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, δοκεῖ τούτων μηδέτερα ποιεῖν,
470b ἀλλὰ τὸν ἐπέτειον καρπὸν ἀφαιρεῖσθαι. καὶ ὧν ἕνεκα, βούλει
σοι λέγω;
In my view, said I, they ought to do neither, but confine themselves to taking away the annual harvest. Shall I tell you why?
Πάνυ γε.
Do.
Φαίνεταί μοι, ὥσπερ καὶ ὀνομάζεται δύο ταῦτα ὀνόματα,
πόλεμός τε καὶ στάσις, οὕτω καὶ εἶναι δύο, ὄντα ἐπὶ δυοῖν
τινοιν διαφοραῖν. λέγω δὲ τὰ δύο τὸ μὲν οἰκεῖον καὶ
συγγενές, τὸ δὲ ἀλλότριον καὶ ὀθνεῖον. ἐπὶ μὲν οὖν τῇ
τοῦ οἰκείου ἔχθρᾳ στάσις κέκληται, ἐπὶ δὲ τῇ τοῦ ἀλλοτρίου
πόλεμος.
In my opinion, just as we have the two terms, war and faction, so there are also two things, distinguished by two differentiae. The two things I mean are the friendly and kindred on the one hand and the alien and foreign on the other. Now the term employed for the hostility of the friendly is faction, and for that of the alien is war.
Καὶ οὐδέν γε, ἔφη, ἀπὸ τρόπου λέγεις.
What you say is in nothing beside the mark, he replied.
470c Ὅρα δὴ καὶ εἰ τόδε πρὸς τρόπου λέγω. φημὶ γὰρ τὸ
μὲν Ἑλληνικὸν γένος αὐτὸ αὑτῷ οἰκεῖον εἶναι καὶ συγγενές,
τῷ δὲ βαρβαρικῷ ὀθνεῖόν τε καὶ ἀλλότριον.
Consider, then, if this goes to the mark. I affirm that the Hellenic race is friendly to itself and akin, and foreign and alien to the barbarian.
Καλῶς γε, ἔφη.
Rightly, he said.
Ἕλληνας μὲν ἄρα βαρβάροις καὶ βαρβάρους Ἕλλησι
πολεμεῖν μαχομένους τε φήσομεν καὶ πολεμίους φύσει
εἶναι, καὶ πόλεμον τὴν ἔχθραν ταύτην κλητέον· Ἕλληνας
δὲ Ἕλλησιν, ὅταν τι τοιοῦτον δρῶσιν, φύσει μὲν φίλους
εἶναι, νοσεῖν δ' ἐν τῷ τοιούτῳ τὴν Ἑλλάδα καὶ στασιάζειν,
470d καὶ στάσιν τὴν τοιαύτην ἔχθραν κλητέον.
We shall then say that Greeks fight and wage war with barbarians, and barbarians with Greeks, and are enemies by nature, and that war is the fit name for this enmity and hatred. Greeks, however, we shall say, are still by nature the friends of Greeks when they act in this way, but that Greece is sick in that case and divided by faction, and faction is the name we must give to that enmity.
Ἐγὼ μέν, ἔφη, συγχωρῶ οὕτω νομίζειν.
I will allow you that habit of speech, he said.
Σκόπει δή, εἶπον, ὅτι ἐν τῇ νῦν ὁμολογουμένῃ στάσει,
ὅπου ἄν τι τοιοῦτον γένηται καὶ διαστῇ πόλις, ἐὰν ἑκάτεροι
ἑκατέρων τέμνωσιν ἀγροὺς καὶ οἰκίας ἐμπιμπρῶσιν, ὡς
ἀλιτηριώδης τε δοκεῖ ἡ στάσις εἶναι καὶ οὐδέτεροι αὐτῶν
φιλοπόλιδες—οὐ γὰρ ἄν ποτε ἐτόλμων τὴν τροφόν τε καὶ
μητέρα κείρειν—ἀλλὰ μέτριον εἶναι τοὺς καρποὺς ἀφαιρεῖσθαι
470e τοῖς κρατοῦσι τῶν κρατουμένων, καὶ διανοεῖσθαι ὡς
διαλλαγησομένων καὶ οὐκ ἀεὶ πολεμησόντων.
Then observe, said I, that when anything of this sort occurs in faction, as the word is now used, and a state is divided against itself, if either party devastates the land and burns the houses of the other such factional strife is thought to be an accursed thing and neither party to be true patriots. Otherwise, they would never have endured thus to outrage their nurse and mother. But the moderate and reasonable thing is thought to be that the victors shall take away the crops of the vanquished, but that their temper shall be that of men who expect to be reconciled and not always to wage war.
Πολὺ γάρ, ἔφη, ἡμερωτέρων αὕτη ἡ διάνοια ἐκείνης.
That way of feeling, he said, is far less savage than the other.
Τί δὲ δή; ἔφην· ἣν σὺ πόλιν οἰκίζεις, οὐχ Ἑλληνὶς
ἔσται;
Well, then, said I, is not the city that you are founding to be a Greek city?
Δεῖ γ' αὐτήν, ἔφη.
It must be, he said.
Οὐκοῦν καὶ ἀγαθοί τε καὶ ἥμεροι ἔσονται;
Will they then not be good and gentle?
Σφόδρα γε.
Indeed they will.
Ἀλλ' οὐ φιλέλληνες; οὐδὲ οἰκείαν τὴν Ἑλλάδα ἡγήσονται,
οὐδὲ κοινωνήσουσιν ὧνπερ οἱ ἄλλοι ἱερῶν;
And won’t they be philhellenes, lovers of Greeks, and will they not regard all Greece as their own and not renounce their part in the holy places common to all Greeks ?
Καὶ σφόδρα γε.
Most certainly.
471a Οὐκοῦν τὴν πρὸς τοὺς Ἕλληνας διαφοράν, ὡς οἰκείους,
στάσιν ἡγήσονται καὶ οὐδὲ ὀνομάσουσιν πόλεμον;
Will they not then regard any difference with Greeks who are their own people as a form of faction and refuse even to speak of it as war?
Οὐ γάρ.
Most certainly.
Καὶ ὡς διαλλαγησόμενοι ἄρα διοίσονται;
And they will conduct their quarrels always looking forward to a reconciliation?
Πάνυ μὲν οὖν.
By all means.
Εὐμενῶς δὴ σωφρονιοῦσιν, οὐκ ἐπὶ δουλείᾳ κολάζοντες
οὐδ' ἐπ' ὀλέθρῳ, σωφρονισταὶ ὄντες, οὐ πολέμιοι.
They will correct them, then, for their own good, not chastising them with a view to their enslavement or their destruction, but acting as correctors, not as enemies.
Οὕτως, ἔφη.
They will, he said.
Οὐδ' ἄρα τὴν Ἑλλάδα Ἕλληνες ὄντες κεροῦσιν, οὐδὲ
οἰκήσεις ἐμπρήσουσιν, οὐδὲ ὁμολογήσουσιν ἐν ἑκάστῃ πόλει
πάντας ἐχθροὺς αὑτοῖς εἶναι, καὶ ἄνδρας καὶ γυναῖκας καὶ
παῖδας, ἀλλ' ὀλίγους ἀεὶ ἐχθροὺς τοὺς αἰτίους τῆς διαφορᾶς.
471b καὶ διὰ ταῦτα πάντα οὔτε τὴν γῆν ἐθελήσουσιν κείρειν
αὐτῶν, ὡς φίλων τῶν πολλῶν, οὔτε οἰκίας ἀνατρέπειν,
ἀλλὰ μέχρι τούτου ποιήσονται τὴν διαφοράν, μέχρι οὗ ἂν
οἱ αἴτιοι ἀναγκασθῶσιν ὑπὸ τῶν ἀναιτίων ἀλγούντων δοῦναι
δίκην.
They will not, being Greeks, ravage Greek territory nor burn habitations, and they will not admit that in any city all the population are their enemies, men, women and children, but will say that only a few at any time are their foes, those, namely, who are to blame for the quarrel. And on all these considerations they will not be willing to lay waste the soil, since the majority are their friends, nor to destroy the houses, but will carry the conflict only to the point of compelling the guilty to do justice by the pressure of the suffering of the innocent.
Ἐγὼ μέν, ἔφη, ὁμολογῶ οὕτω δεῖν πρὸς τοὺς ἐναντίους
τοὺς ἡμετέρους πολίτας προσφέρεσθαι· πρὸς δὲ τοὺς βαρβάρους,
ὡς νῦν οἱ Ἕλληνες πρὸς ἀλλήλους.
I, he said, agree that our citizens ought to deal with their Greek opponents on this wise, while treating barbarians as Greeks now treat Greeks.
Τιθῶμεν δὴ καὶ τοῦτον τὸν νόμον τοῖς φύλαξι, μήτε γῆν
471c τέμνειν μήτε οἰκίας ἐμπιμπράναι;
Shall we lay down this law also, then, for our guardians that they are not to lay waste the land or burn the houses?
Θῶμεν, ἔφη, καὶ ἔχειν γε καλῶς ταῦτά τε καὶ τὰ
πρόσθεν.
Let us so decree, he said, and assume that this and our preceding prescriptions are right.
Ἀλλὰ γάρ μοι δοκεῖς, ὦ Σώκρατες, ἐάν τίς σοι τὰ
τοιαῦτα ἐπιτρέπῃ λέγειν, οὐδέποτε μνησθήσεσθαι ὃ ἐν τῷ
πρόσθεν παρωσάμενος πάντα ταῦτα εἴρηκας, τὸ ὡς δυνατὴ
αὕτη ἡ πολιτεία γενέσθαι καὶ τίνα τρόπον ποτὲ δυνατή·
ἐπεὶ ὅτι γε, εἰ γένοιτο, πάντ' ἂν εἴη ἀγαθὰ πόλει ᾗ γένοιτο,
καὶ ἃ σὺ παραλείπεις ἐγὼ λέγω, ὅτι καὶ τοῖς πολεμίοις
471d ἄριστ' ἂν μάχοιντο τῷ ἥκιστα ἀπολείπειν ἀλλήλους, γιγνώσκοντές
τε καὶ ἀνακαλοῦντες ταῦτα τὰ ὀνόματα ἑαυτούς,
ἀδελφούς, πατέρας, ὑεῖς· εἰ δὲ καὶ τὸ θῆλυ συστρατεύοιτο,
εἴτε καὶ ἐν τῇ αὐτῇ τάξει εἴτε καὶ ὄπισθεν ἐπιτεταγμένον,
φόβων τε ἕνεκα τοῖς ἐχθροῖς καὶ εἴ ποτέ τις ἀνάγκη βοηθείας
γένοιτο, οἶδ' ὅτι ταύτῃ πάντῃ ἄμαχοι ἂν εἶεν· καὶ
οἴκοι γε ἃ παραλείπεται ἀγαθά, ὅσα ἂν εἴη αὐτοῖς, ὁρῶ.
471e ἀλλ' ὡς ἐμοῦ ὁμολογοῦντος πάντα ταῦτα ὅτι εἴη ἂν καὶ
ἄλλα γε μυρία, εἰ γένοιτο ἡ πολιτεία αὕτη, μηκέτι πλείω
περὶ αὐτῆς λέγε, ἀλλὰ τοῦτο αὐτὸ ἤδη πειρώμεθα ἡμᾶς
αὐτοὺς πείθειν, ὡς δυνατὸν καὶ ᾗ δυνατόν, τὰ δ' ἄλλα
χαίρειν ἐῶμεν.
But I fear, Socrates,that if you are allowed to go on in this fashion, you will never get to speak of the matter you put aside in order to say all this, namely, the possibility of such a polity coming into existence, and the way in which it could be brought to pass. I too am ready to admit that if it could be realized everything would be lovely for the state that had it, and I will add what you passed by, that they would also be most successful in war because they would be least likely to desert one another, knowing and addressing each other by the names of brothers, fathers, sons. And if the females should also join in their campaigns, whether in the ranks or marshalled behind to intimidate the enemy, or as reserves in case of need, I recognize that all this too would make them irresistible. And at home, also, I observe all the benefits that you omit to mention. But, taking it for granted that I concede these and countless other advantages, consequent on the realization of this polity, don’t labor that point further; but let us at once proceed to try to convince ourselves of just this, that it is possible and how it is possible, dismissing everything else.
472a Ἐξαίφνης γε σύ, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, ὥσπερ καταδρομὴν ἐποιήσω
ἐπὶ τὸν λόγον μου, καὶ οὐ συγγιγνώσκεις στραγγευομένῳ.
ἴσως γὰρ οὐκ οἶσθα ὅτι μόγις μοι τὼ δύο κύματε ἐκφυγόντι
νῦν τὸ μέγιστον καὶ χαλεπώτατον τῆς τρικυμίας ἐπάγεις,
ὃ ἐπειδὰν ἴδῃς τε καὶ ἀκούσῃς, πάνυ συγγνώμην ἕξεις, ὅτι
εἰκότως ἄρα ὤκνουν τε καὶ ἐδεδοίκη οὕτω παράδοξον λόγον
λέγειν τε καὶ ἐπιχειρεῖν διασκοπεῖν.
This is a sudden assault, indeed, said I, that you have made on my theory, without any regard for my natural hesitation. Perhaps you don’t realize that when I have hardly escaped the first two waves, you are now rolling up against me the great third wave of paradox, the worst of all. When you have seen and heard that, you will be very ready to be lenient, recognizing that I had good reason after all for shrinking and fearing to enter upon the discussion of so paradoxical a notion.
Ὅσῳ ἄν, ἔφη, τοιαῦτα πλείω λέγῃς, ἧττον ἀφεθήσῃ
472b ὑφ' ἡμῶν πρὸς τὸ μὴ εἰπεῖν πῇ δυνατὴ γίγνεσθαι αὕτη ἡ
πολιτεία. ἀλλὰ λέγε καὶ μὴ διάτριβε.
The more such excuses you offer, he said, the less you will be released by us from telling in what way the realization of this polity is possible. Speak on, then, and do not put us off.
Οὐκοῦν, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, πρῶτον μὲν τόδε χρὴ ἀναμνησθῆναι,
ὅτι ἡμεῖς ζητοῦντες δικαιοσύνην οἷόν ἐστι καὶ ἀδικίαν δεῦρο
ἥκομεν.
The first thing to recall, then, I said, is that it was the inquiry into the nature of justice and injustice that brought us to this pass.
Χρή· ἀλλὰ τί τοῦτο; ἔφη.
Yes; but what of it? he said.
Οὐδέν· ἀλλ' ἐὰν εὕρωμεν οἷόν ἐστι δικαιοσύνη, ἆρα καὶ
ἄνδρα τὸν δίκαιον ἀξιώσομεν μηδὲν δεῖν αὐτῆς ἐκείνης
διαφέρειν, ἀλλὰ πανταχῇ τοιοῦτον εἶναι οἷον δικαιοσύνη
472c ἐστίν; ἢ ἀγαπήσομεν ἐὰν ὅτι ἐγγύτατα αὐτῆς ᾖ καὶ
πλεῖστα τῶν ἄλλων ἐκείνης μετέχῃ;
Oh, nothing, I replied, only this: if we do discover what justice is, are we to demand that the just man shall differ from it in no respect, but shall conform in every way to the ideal? Or will it suffice us if he approximate to it as nearly as possible and partake of it more than others?
Οὕτως, ἔφη· ἀγαπήσομεν.
That will content us, he said.
Παραδείγματος ἄρα ἕνεκα, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, ἐζητοῦμεν αὐτό τε
δικαιοσύνην οἷόν ἐστι, καὶ ἄνδρα τὸν τελέως δίκαιον εἰ
γένοιτο, καὶ οἷος ἂν εἴη γενόμενος, καὶ ἀδικίαν αὖ καὶ τὸν
ἀδικώτατον, ἵνα εἰς ἐκείνους ἀποβλέποντες, οἷοι ἂν ἡμῖν
φαίνωνται εὐδαιμονίας τε πέρι καὶ τοῦ ἐναντίου, ἀναγκαζώμεθα
καὶ περὶ ἡμῶν αὐτῶν ὁμολογεῖν, ὃς ἂν ἐκείνοις ὅτι
472d ὁμοιότατος ᾖ, τὴν ἐκείνης μοῖραν ὁμοιοτάτην ἕξειν, ἀλλ'
οὐ τούτου ἕνεκα, ἵν' ἀποδείξωμεν ὡς δυνατὰ ταῦτα γίγνεσθαι.
A pattern, then, said I, was what we wanted when we were inquiring into the nature of ideal justice and asking what would be the character of the perfectly just man, supposing him to exist, and, likewise, in regard to injustice and the completely unjust man. We wished to fix our eyes upon them as types and models, so that whatever we discerned in them of happiness or the reverse would necessarily apply to ourselves in the sense that whosoever is likest them will have the allotment most like to theirs. Our purpose was not to demonstrate the possibility of the realization of these ideals.
Τοῦτο μέν, ἔφη, ἀληθὲς λέγεις.
In that, he said, you speak truly.
Οἴει ἂν οὖν ἧττόν τι ἀγαθὸν ζωγράφον εἶναι ὃς ἂν
γράψας παράδειγμα οἷον ἂν εἴη ὁ κάλλιστος ἄνθρωπος καὶ
πάντα εἰς τὸ γράμμα ἱκανῶς ἀποδοὺς μὴ ἔχῃ ἀποδεῖξαι ὡς
καὶ δυνατὸν γενέσθαι τοιοῦτον ἄνδρα;
Do you think, then, that he would be any the less a good painter, who, after portraying a pattern of the ideally beautiful man and omitting no touch required for the perfection of the picture, should not be able to prove that it is actually possible for such a man to exist?
Μὰ Δί' οὐκ ἔγωγ', ἔφη.
Not I, by Zeus, he said.
Τί οὖν; οὐ καὶ ἡμεῖς, φαμέν, παράδειγμα ἐποιοῦμεν
472e λόγῳ ἀγαθῆς πόλεως;
Then were not we, as we say, trying to create in words the pattern of a good state?
Πάνυ γε.
Certainly.
Ἧττόν τι οὖν οἴει ἡμᾶς εὖ λέγειν τούτου ἕνεκα, ἐὰν μὴ
ἔχωμεν ἀποδεῖξαι ὡς δυνατὸν οὕτω πόλιν οἰκῆσαι ὡς ἐλέγετο;
Do you think, then, that our words are any the less well spoken if we find ourselves unable to prove that it is possible for a state to be governed in accordance with our words?
Οὐ δῆτα, ἔφη.
Of course not, he said.
Τὸ μὲν τοίνυν ἀληθές, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, οὕτω· εἰ δὲ δὴ καὶ
τοῦτο προθυμηθῆναι δεῖ σὴν χάριν, ἀποδεῖξαι πῇ μάλιστα
καὶ κατὰ τί δυνατώτατ' ἂν εἴη, πάλιν μοι πρὸς τὴν τοιαύτην
ἀπόδειξιν τὰ αὐτὰ διομολόγησαι.
That, then, said I, is the truth of the matter. But if, to please you, we must do our best to show how most probably and in what respect these things would be most nearly realized, again, with a view to such a demonstration, grant me the same point.
Τὰ ποῖα;
What?
473a Ἆρ' οἷόν τέ τι πραχθῆναι ὡς λέγεται, ἢ φύσιν ἔχει
πρᾶξιν λέξεως ἧττον ἀληθείας ἐφάπτεσθαι, κἂν εἰ μή τῳ
δοκεῖ; ἀλλὰ σὺ πότερον ὁμολογεῖς οὕτως ἢ οὔ;
Is it possible for anything to be realized in deed as it is spoken in word, or is it the nature of things that action should partake of exact truth less than speech, even if some deny it? Do you admit it or not?
Ὁμολογῶ, ἔφη.
I do, he said.
Τοῦτο μὲν δὴ μὴ ἀνάγκαζέ με, οἷα τῷ λόγῳ διήλθομεν,
τοιαῦτα παντάπασι καὶ τῷ ἔργῳ δεῖν γιγνόμενα <ἂν>
ἀποφαίνειν· ἀλλ', ἐὰν οἷοί τε γενώμεθα εὑρεῖν ὡς ἂν
ἐγγύτατα τῶν εἰρημένων πόλις οἰκήσειεν, φάναι ἡμᾶς
473b ἐξηυρηκέναι ὡς δυνατὰ ταῦτα γίγνεσθαι ἃ σὺ ἐπιτάττεις. ἢ
οὐκ ἀγαπήσεις τούτων τυγχάνων; ἐγὼ μὲν γὰρ ἂν ἀγαπῴην.
Then don’t insist, said I, that I must exhibit as realized in action precisely what we expounded in words. But if we can discover how a state might be constituted most nearly answering to our description, you must say that we have discovered that possibility of realization which you demanded. Will you not be content if you get this?
Καὶ γὰρ ἐγώ, ἔφη.
I for my part would. And I too, he said.
Τὸ δὲ δὴ μετὰ τοῦτο, ὡς ἔοικε, πειρώμεθα ζητεῖν τε καὶ
ἀποδεικνύναι τί ποτε νῦν κακῶς ἐν ταῖς πόλεσι πράττεται
δι' ὃ οὐχ οὕτως οἰκοῦνται, καὶ τίνος ἂν σμικροτάτου μεταβαλόντος
ἔλθοι εἰς τοῦτον τὸν τρόπον τῆς πολιτείας πόλις,
μάλιστα μὲν ἑνός, εἰ δὲ μή, δυοῖν, εἰ δὲ μή, ὅτι ὀλιγίστων
τὸν ἀριθμὸν καὶ σμικροτάτων τὴν δύναμιν.
Next, it seems, we must try to discover and point out what it is that is now badly managed in our cities, and that prevents them from being so governed, and what is the smallest change that would bring a state to this manner of government, preferably a change in one thing, if not, then in two, and, failing that, the fewest possible in number and the slightest in potency.
473c Παντάπασι μὲν οὖν, ἔφη.
By all means, he said.
Ἑνὸς μὲν τοίνυν, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, μεταβαλόντος δοκοῦμέν μοι
ἔχειν δεῖξαι ὅτι μεταπέσοι ἄν, οὐ μέντοι σμικροῦ γε οὐδὲ
ῥᾳδίου, δυνατοῦ δέ.
There is one change, then, said I, which I think that we can show would bring about the desired transformation. It is not a slight or an easy thing but it is possible.
Τίνος; ἔφη.
What is that? said he.
Ἐπ' αὐτῷ δή, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, εἰμὶ ὃ τῷ μεγίστῳ προσῃκάζομεν
κύματι. εἰρήσεται δ' οὖν, εἰ καὶ μέλλει γέλωτί τε ἀτεχνῶς
ὥσπερ κῦμα ἐκγελῶν καὶ ἀδοξίᾳ κατακλύσειν. σκόπει δὲ
ὃ μέλλω λέγειν.
I am on the very verge, said I, of what we likened to the greatest wave of paradox. But say it I will, even if, to keep the figure, it is likely to wash us away on billows of laughter and scorn. Listen.
Λέγε, ἔφη.
I am all attention, he said.
Ἐὰν μή, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, ἢ οἱ φιλόσοφοι βασιλεύσωσιν ἐν
473d ταῖς πόλεσιν ἢ οἱ βασιλῆς τε νῦν λεγόμενοι καὶ δυνάσται
φιλοσοφήσωσι γνησίως τε καὶ ἱκανῶς, καὶ τοῦτο εἰς ταὐτὸν
συμπέσῃ, δύναμίς τε πολιτικὴ καὶ φιλοσοφία, τῶν δὲ
νῦν πορευομένων χωρὶς ἐφ' ἑκάτερον αἱ πολλαὶ φύσεις ἐξ
ἀνάγκης ἀποκλεισθῶσιν, οὐκ ἔστι κακῶν παῦλα, ὦ φίλε
Γλαύκων, ταῖς πόλεσι, δοκῶ δ' οὐδὲ τῷ ἀνθρωπίνῳ γένει,
473e οὐδὲ αὕτη ἡ πολιτεία μή ποτε πρότερον φυῇ τε εἰς τὸ
δυνατὸν καὶ φῶς ἡλίου ἴδῃ, ἣν νῦν λόγῳ διεληλύθαμεν.
ἀλλὰ τοῦτό ἐστιν ὃ ἐμοὶ πάλαι ὄκνον ἐντίθησι λέγειν,
ὁρῶντι ὡς πολὺ παρὰ δόξαν ῥηθήσεται· χαλεπὸν γὰρ ἰδεῖν
ὅτι οὐκ ἂν ἄλλη τις εὐδαιμονήσειεν οὔτε ἰδίᾳ οὔτε δημοσίᾳ.
Unless, said I, either philosophers become kings in our states or those whom we now call our kings and rulers take to the pursuit of philosophy seriously and adequately, and there is a conjunction of these two things, political power and philosophic intelligence, while the motley horde of the natures who at present pursue either apart from the other are compulsorily excluded, there can be no cessation of troubles, dear Glaucon, for our states, nor, I fancy, for the human race either. Nor, until this happens, will this constitution which we have been expounding in theory ever be put into practice within the limits of possibility and see the light of the sun. But this is the thing that has made me so long shrink from speaking out, because I saw that it would be a very paradoxical saying. For it is not easy to see that there is no other way of happiness either for private or public life.
Whereupon he,
Καὶ ὅς, Ὦ Σώκρατες, ἔφη, τοιοῦτον ἐκβέβληκας ῥῆμά
τε καὶ λόγον, ὃν εἰπὼν ἡγοῦ ἐπὶ σὲ πάνυ πολλούς τε καὶ
474a οὐ φαύλους νῦν οὕτως, οἷον ῥίψαντας τὰ ἱμάτια, γυμνοὺς
λαβόντας ὅτι ἑκάστῳ παρέτυχεν ὅπλον, θεῖν διατεταμένους
ὡς θαυμάσια ἐργασομένους· οὓς εἰ μὴ ἀμυνῇ τῷ λόγῳ καὶ
ἐκφεύξῃ, τῷ ὄντι τωθαζόμενος δώσεις δίκην.
Socrates, said he, after hurling at us such an utterance and statement as that, you must expect to be attacked by a great multitude of our men of light and leading, who forthwith will, so to speak, cast off their garments and strip and, snatching the first weapon that comes to hand, rush at you with might and main, prepared to do dreadful deeds. And if you don’t find words to defend yourself against them, and escape their assault, then to be scorned and flouted will in very truth be the penalty you will have to pay.
Οὐκοῦν σύ μοι, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, τούτων αἴτιος;
And isn’t it you, said I, that have brought this upon me and are to blame?
Καλῶς γ', ἔφη, ἐγὼ ποιῶν. ἀλλά τοί σε οὐ προδώσω,
ἀλλ' ἀμυνῶ οἷς δύναμαι· δύναμαι δὲ εὐνοίᾳ τε καὶ τῷ
παρακελεύεσθαι, καὶ ἴσως ἂν ἄλλου του ἐμμελέστερόν σοι
474b ἀποκρινοίμην. ἀλλ' ὡς ἔχων τοιοῦτον βοηθὸν πειρῶ τοῖς
ἀπιστοῦσιν ἐνδείξασθαι ὅτι ἔχει ᾗ σὺ λέγεις.
And a good thing, too, said he; but I won’t let you down, and will defend you with what I can. I can do so with my good will and my encouragement, and perhaps I might answer your questions more suitably than another. So, with such an aid to back you, try to make it plain to the doubters that the truth is as you say.
Πειρατέον, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, ἐπειδὴ καὶ σὺ οὕτω μεγάλην συμμαχίαν
παρέχῃ. ἀναγκαῖον οὖν μοι δοκεῖ, εἰ μέλλομέν
πῃ ἐκφεύξεσθαι οὓς λέγεις, διορίσασθαι πρὸς αὐτοὺς τοὺς
φιλοσόφους τίνας λέγοντες τολμῶμεν φάναι δεῖν ἄρχειν,
ἵνα διαδήλων γενομένων δύνηταί τις ἀμύνεσθαι, ἐνδεικνύμενος
474c ὅτι τοῖς μὲν προσήκει φύσει ἅπτεσθαί τε φιλοσοφίας
ἡγεμονεύειν τ' ἐν πόλει, τοῖς δ' ἄλλοις μήτε ἅπτεσθαι
ἀκολουθεῖν τε τῷ ἡγουμένῳ.
I must try, I replied, since you proffer so strong an alliance. I think it requisite, then, if we are to escape the assailants you speak of, that we should define for them whom we mean by the philosophers, who we dare to say ought to be our rulers. When these are clearly discriminated it will be possible to defend ourselves by showing that to them by their very nature belong the study of philosophy and political leadership, while it befits the other sort to let philosophy alone and to follow their leader.
Ὥρα ἂν εἴη, ἔφη, ὁρίζεσθαι.
It is high time, he said, to produce your definition.
Ἴθι δή, ἀκολούθησόν μοι τῇδε, ἐὰν αὐτὸ ἁμῇ γέ πῃ
ἱκανῶς ἐξηγησώμεθα.
Come, then, follow me on this line, if we may in some fashion or other explain our meaning.
Ἄγε, ἔφη.
Proceed, he said.
Ἀναμιμνῄσκειν οὖν σε, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, δεήσει, ἢ μέμνησαι
ὅτι ὃν ἂν φῶμεν φιλεῖν τι, δεῖ φανῆναι αὐτόν, ἐὰν ὀρθῶς
λέγηται, οὐ τὸ μὲν φιλοῦντα ἐκείνου, τὸ δὲ μή, ἀλλὰ πᾶν
στέργοντα;
Must I remind you, then, said I, or do you remember, that when we affirm that a man is a lover of something, it must be apparent that he is fond of all of it? It will not do to say that some of it he likes and some does not.
474d Ἀναμιμνῄσκειν, ἔφη, ὡς ἔοικεν, δεῖ· οὐ γὰρ πάνυ γε
ἐννοῶ.
I think you will have to remind me, he said, for I don’t apprehend at all.
Ἄλλῳ, εἶπον, ἔπρεπεν, ὦ Γλαύκων, λέγειν ἃ λέγεις·
ἀνδρὶ δ' ἐρωτικῷ οὐ πρέπει ἀμνημονεῖν ὅτι πάντες οἱ ἐν
ὥρᾳ τὸν φιλόπαιδα καὶ ἐρωτικὸν ἁμῇ γέ πῃ δάκνουσί τε
καὶ κινοῦσι, δοκοῦντες ἄξιοι εἶναι ἐπιμελείας τε καὶ τοῦ
ἀσπάζεσθαι. ἢ οὐχ οὕτω ποιεῖτε πρὸς τοὺς καλούς; ὁ
μέν, ὅτι σιμός, ἐπίχαρις κληθεὶς ἐπαινεθήσεται ὑφ' ὑμῶν,
τοῦ δὲ τὸ γρυπὸν βασιλικόν φατε εἶναι, τὸν δὲ δὴ διὰ
474e μέσου τούτων ἐμμετρώτατα ἔχειν, μέλανας δὲ ἀνδρικοὺς
ἰδεῖν, λευκοὺς δὲ θεῶν παῖδας εἶναι· μελιχλώρους δὲ καὶ
τοὔνομα οἴει τινὸς ἄλλου ποίημα εἶναι ἢ ἐραστοῦ ὑποκοριζομένου
τε καὶ εὐχερῶς φέροντος τὴν ὠχρότητα, ἐὰν ἐπὶ
ὥρᾳ ᾖ; καὶ ἑνὶ λόγῳ πάσας προφάσεις προφασίζεσθέ τε
475a καὶ πάσας φωνὰς ἀφίετε, ὥστε μηδένα ἀποβάλλειν τῶν
ἀνθούντων ἐν ὥρᾳ.
That reply, Glaucon, said I, befitted another rather than you. It does not become a lover to forget that all adolescents in some sort sting and stir the amorous lover of youth and appear to him deserving of his attention and desirable. Is not that your reaction to the fair? One, because his nose is tip-tilted, you will praise as piquant, the beak of another you pronounce right-royal, the intermediate type you say strikes the harmonious mean, the swarthy are of manly aspect, the white are children of the gods divinely fair, and as for honey-hued, do you suppose the very word is anything but the euphemistic invention of some lover who can feel no distaste for sallowness when it accompanies the blooming time of youth?
And, in short, there is no pretext you do not allege and there is nothing you shrink from saying to justify you in not rejecting any who are in the bloom of their prime.
Εἰ βούλει, ἔφη, ἐπ' ἐμοῦ λέγειν περὶ τῶν ἐρωτικῶν ὅτι
οὕτω ποιοῦσι, συγχωρῶ τοῦ λόγου χάριν.
If it is your pleasure, he said, to take me as your example of this trait in lovers, I admit it for the sake of the argument.
Τί δέ; ἦν δ' ἐγώ· τοὺς φιλοίνους οὐ τὰ αὐτὰ ταῦτα
ποιοῦντας ὁρᾷς; πάντα οἶνον ἐπὶ πάσης προφάσεως ἀσπαζομένους;
Again, said I, do you not observe the same thing in the lovers of wine? They welcome every wine on any pretext.
Καὶ μάλα.
They do, indeed.
Καὶ μὴν φιλοτίμους γε, ὡς ἐγᾦμαι, καθορᾷς ὅτι, ἂν μὴ
στρατηγῆσαι δύνωνται, τριττυαρχοῦσιν, κἂν μὴ ὑπὸ μειζόνων
475b καὶ σεμνοτέρων τιμᾶσθαι, ὑπὸ σμικροτέρων καὶ φαυλοτέρων
τιμώμενοι ἀγαπῶσιν, ὡς ὅλως τιμῆς ἐπιθυμηταὶ ὄντες.
And so I take it you have observed that men who are covetous of honor, if they can’t get themselves elected generals, are captains of a company. And if they can’t be honored by great men and dignitaries, are satisfied with honor from little men and nobodies. But honor they desire and must have.
Κομιδῇ μὲν οὖν.
Yes, indeed.
Τοῦτο δὴ φάθι ἢ μή· ἆρα ὃν ἄν τινος ἐπιθυμητικὸν
λέγωμεν, παντὸς τοῦ εἴδους τούτου φήσομεν ἐπιθυμεῖν, ἢ
τοῦ μέν, τοῦ δὲ οὔ;
Admit, then, or reject my proposition. When we say a man is keen about something, shall we say that he has an appetite for the whole class or that he desires only a part and a part not?
Παντός, ἔφη.
The whole, he said.
Οὐκοῦν καὶ τὸν φιλόσοφον σοφίας φήσομεν ἐπιθυμητὴν
εἶναι, οὐ τῆς μέν, τῆς δ' οὔ, ἀλλὰ πάσης;
Ἀληθῆ.
Τὸν ἄρα περὶ τὰ μαθήματα δυσχεραίνοντα, ἄλλως τε
475c καὶ νέον ὄντα καὶ μήπω λόγον ἔχοντα τί τε χρηστὸν καὶ
μή, οὐ φήσομεν φιλομαθῆ οὐδὲ φιλόσοφον εἶναι, ὥσπερ
τὸν περὶ τὰ σιτία δυσχερῆ οὔτε πεινῆν φαμεν οὔτ' ἐπιθυμεῖν
σιτίων, οὐδὲ φιλόσιτον ἀλλὰ κακόσιτον εἶναι.
Then the lover of wisdom, too, we shall affirm, desires all wisdom, not a part and a part not. Certainly. The student, then, who is finical about his studies, especially when he is young and cannot yet know by reason what is useful and what is not, we shall say is not a lover of learning or a lover of wisdom, just as we say that one who is dainty about his food is not really hungry, has not an appetite for food, and is not a lover of food, but a poor feeder.
Καὶ ὀρθῶς γε φήσομεν.
We shall rightly say so.
Τὸν δὲ δὴ εὐχερῶς ἐθέλοντα παντὸς μαθήματος γεύεσθαι
καὶ ἁσμένως ἐπὶ τὸ μανθάνειν ἰόντα καὶ ἀπλήστως ἔχοντα,
τοῦτον δ' ἐν δίκῃ φήσομεν φιλόσοφον· ἦ γάρ;
But the one who feels no distaste in sampling every study, and who attacks his task of learning gladly and cannot get enough of it, him we shall justly pronounce the lover of wisdom, the philosopher, shall we not?
475d Καὶ ὁ Γλαύκων ἔφη· Πολλοὶ ἄρα καὶ ἄτοποι ἔσονταί σοι
τοιοῦτοι. οἵ τε γὰρ φιλοθεάμονες πάντες ἔμοιγε δοκοῦσι τῷ
καταμανθάνειν χαίροντες τοιοῦτοι εἶναι, οἵ τε φιλήκοοι ἀτοπώτατοί
τινές εἰσιν ὥς γ' ἐν φιλοσόφοις τιθέναι, οἳ πρὸς μὲν λόγους
καὶ τοιαύτην διατριβὴν ἑκόντες οὐκ ἂν ἐθέλοιεν ἐλθεῖν, ὥσπερ
δὲ ἀπομεμισθωκότες τὰ ὦτα ἐπακοῦσαι πάντων χορῶν περιθέουσι
τοῖς Διονυσίοις οὔτε τῶν κατὰ πόλεις οὔτε τῶν κατὰ κώμας
ἀπολειπόμενοι. τούτους οὖν πάντας καὶ ἄλλους τοιούτων τινῶν
475e μαθητικοὺς καὶ τοὺς τῶν τεχνυδρίων φιλοσόφους φήσομεν;
To which Glaucon replied, You will then be giving the name to a numerous and strange band, for all the lovers of spectacles are what they are, I fancy, by virtue of their delight in learning something. And those who always want to hear some new thing are a very queer lot to be reckoned among philosophers. You couldn’t induce them to attend a serious debate or any such entertainment, but as if they had farmed out their ears to listen to every chorus in the land, they run about to all the Dionysiac festivals, never missing one, either in the towns or in the country-villages. Are we to designate all these, then, and similar folk and all the practitioners of the minor arts as philosophers?
Οὐδαμῶς, εἶπον, ἀλλ' ὁμοίους μὲν φιλοσόφοις.
Not at all, I said; but they do bear a certain likeness to philosophers.
Τοὺς δὲ ἀληθινούς, ἔφη, τίνας λέγεις;
Whom do you mean, then, by the true philosophers?
Τοὺς τῆς ἀληθείας, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, φιλοθεάμονας.
Those for whom the truth is the spectacle of which they are enamored, said I.
Καὶ τοῦτο μέν γ', ἔφη, ὀρθῶς· ἀλλὰ πῶς αὐτὸ λέγεις;
Right again, said he; but in what sense do you mean it?
Οὐδαμῶς, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, ῥᾳδίως πρός γε ἄλλον· σὲ δὲ οἶμαι
ὁμολογήσειν μοι τὸ τοιόνδε.
It would be by no means easy to explain it to another, I said, but I think that you will grant me this.
Τὸ ποῖον;
What?
Ἐπειδή ἐστιν ἐναντίον καλὸν αἰσχρῷ, δύο αὐτὼ εἶναι.
That since the fair and honorable is the opposite of the base and ugly, they are two.
476a Πῶς δ' οὔ;
Of course.
Οὐκοῦν ἐπειδὴ δύο, καὶ ἓν ἑκάτερον;
And since they are two, each is one.
Καὶ τοῦτο.
That also.
Καὶ περὶ δὴ δικαίου καὶ ἀδίκου καὶ ἀγαθοῦ καὶ κακοῦ
καὶ πάντων τῶν εἰδῶν πέρι ὁ αὐτὸς λόγος, αὐτὸ μὲν ἓν
ἕκαστον εἶναι, τῇ δὲ τῶν πράξεων καὶ σωμάτων καὶ ἀλλήλων
κοινωνίᾳ πανταχοῦ φανταζόμενα πολλὰ φαίνεσθαι ἕκαστον.
And in respect of the just and the unjust, the good and the bad, and all the ideas or forms, the same statement holds, that in itself each is one, but that by virtue of their communion with actions and bodies and with one another they present themselves everywhere, each as a multiplicity of aspects.
Ὀρθῶς, ἔφη, λέγεις.
Right, he said.
Ταύτῃ τοίνυν, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, διαιρῶ, χωρὶς μὲν οὓς νυνδὴ
ἔλεγες φιλοθεάμονάς τε καὶ φιλοτέχνους καὶ πρακτικούς,
476b καὶ χωρὶς αὖ περὶ ὧν ὁ λόγος, οὓς μόνους ἄν τις ὀρθῶς
προσείποι φιλοσόφους.
This, then, said I, is my division. I set apart and distinguish those of whom you were just speaking, the lovers of spectacles and the arts, and men of action, and separate from them again those with whom our argument is concerned and who alone deserve the appellation of philosophers or lovers of wisdom.
Πῶς, ἔφη, λέγεις;
What do you mean? he said.
Οἱ μέν που, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, φιλήκοοι καὶ φιλοθεάμονες τάς
τε καλὰς φωνὰς ἀσπάζονται καὶ χρόας καὶ σχήματα καὶ
πάντα τὰ ἐκ τῶν τοιούτων δημιουργούμενα, αὐτοῦ δὲ τοῦ
καλοῦ ἀδύνατος αὐτῶν ἡ διάνοια τὴν φύσιν ἰδεῖν τε καὶ
ἀσπάσασθαι.
The lovers of sounds and sights, I said, delight in beautiful tones and colors and shapes and in everything that art fashions out of these, but their thought is incapable of apprehending and taking delight in the nature of the beautiful in itself.
Ἔχει γὰρ οὖν δή, ἔφη, οὕτως.
Why, yes, he said, that is so.
Οἱ δὲ δὴ ἐπ' αὐτὸ τὸ καλὸν δυνατοὶ ἰέναι τε καὶ ὁρᾶν
καθ' αὑτὸ ἆρα οὐ σπάνιοι ἂν εἶεν;
And on the other hand, will not those be few who would be able to approach beauty itself and contemplate it in and by itself?
476c Καὶ μάλα.
They would, indeed.
Ὁ οὖν καλὰ μὲν πράγματα νομίζων, αὐτὸ δὲ κάλλος
μήτε νομίζων μήτε, ἄν τις ἡγῆται ἐπὶ τὴν γνῶσιν αὐτοῦ,
δυνάμενος ἕπεσθαι, ὄναρ ἢ ὕπαρ δοκεῖ σοι ζῆν; σκόπει δέ.
τὸ ὀνειρώττειν ἆρα οὐ τόδε ἐστίν, ἐάντε ἐν ὕπνῳ τις ἐάντ'
ἐγρηγορὼς τὸ ὅμοιόν τῳ μὴ ὅμοιον ἀλλ' αὐτὸ ἡγῆται εἶναι
ᾧ ἔοικεν;
He, then, who believes in beautiful things, but neither believes in beauty itself nor is able to follow when someone tries to guide him to the knowledge of it—do you think that his life is a dream or a waking? Just consider. Is not the dream state, whether the man is asleep or awake, just this: the mistaking of resemblance for identity?
Ἐγὼ γοῦν ἄν, ἦ δ' ὅς, φαίην ὀνειρώττειν τὸν τοιοῦτον.
I should certainly call that dreaming, he said.
Τί δέ; ὁ τἀναντία τούτων ἡγούμενός τέ τι αὐτὸ καλὸν
476d καὶ δυνάμενος καθορᾶν καὶ αὐτὸ καὶ τὰ ἐκείνου μετέχοντα,
καὶ οὔτε τὰ μετέχοντα αὐτὸ οὔτε αὐτὸ τὰ μετέχοντα
ἡγούμενος, ὕπαρ ἢ ὄναρ αὖ καὶ οὗτος δοκεῖ σοι ζῆν;
Well, then, take the opposite case: the man whose thought recognizes a beauty in itself, and is able to distinguish that self-beautiful and the things that participate in it, and neither supposes the participants to be it nor it the participants—is his life, in your opinion, a waking or a dream state?
Καὶ μάλα, ἔφη, ὕπαρ.
He is very much awake, he replied.
Οὐκοῦν τούτου μὲν τὴν διάνοιαν ὡς γιγνώσκοντος γνώμην
ἂν ὀρθῶς φαῖμεν εἶναι, τοῦ δὲ δόξαν ὡς δοξάζοντος;
Could we not rightly, then, call the mental state of the one as knowing, knowledge, and that of the other as opining, opinion?
Πάνυ μὲν οὖν.
Assuredly.
Τί οὖν ἐὰν ἡμῖν χαλεπαίνῃ οὗτος, ὅν φαμεν δοξάζειν
ἀλλ' οὐ γιγνώσκειν, καὶ ἀμφισβητῇ ὡς οὐκ ἀληθῆ λέγομεν;
476e ἕξομέν τι παραμυθεῖσθαι αὐτὸν καὶ πείθειν ἠρέμα, ἐπικρυπτόμενοι
ὅτι οὐχ ὑγιαίνει;
Suppose, now, he who we say opines but does not know should be angry and challenge our statement as not true. Can we find any way of soothing him and gently winning him over, without telling him too plainly that he is not in his right mind?
Δεῖ γέ τοι δή, ἔφη.
We must try, he said.
Ἴθι δή, σκόπει τί ἐροῦμεν πρὸς αὐτόν. ἢ βούλει ὧδε
πυνθανώμεθα παρ' αὐτοῦ, λέγοντες ὡς εἴ τι οἶδεν οὐδεὶς
αὐτῷ φθόνος, ἀλλ' ἅσμενοι ἂν ἴδοιμεν εἰδότα τι. ἀλλ'
ἡμῖν εἰπὲ τόδε· ὁ γιγνώσκων γιγνώσκει τὶ ἢ οὐδέν; σὺ οὖν
μοι ὑπὲρ ἐκείνου ἀποκρίνου.
Come, then, consider what we are to say to him, or would you have us question him in this fashion—premising that if he knows anything, nobody grudges it him, but we should be very glad to see him knowing something—but tell us this: Does he who knows know something or nothing? Do you reply in his behalf.
Ἀποκρινοῦμαι, ἔφη, ὅτι γιγνώσκει τί.
I will reply, he said, that he knows something.
Πότερον ὂν ἢ οὐκ ὄν;
Is it something that is or is not?
That is.
477a Ὄν· πῶς γὰρ ἂν μὴ ὄν γέ τι γνωσθείη;
How could that which is not be known?
Ἱκανῶς οὖν τοῦτο ἔχομεν, κἂν εἰ πλεοναχῇ σκοποῖμεν,
ὅτι τὸ μὲν παντελῶς ὂν παντελῶς γνωστόν, μὴ ὂν δὲ
μηδαμῇ πάντῃ ἄγνωστον;
We are sufficiently assured of this, then, even if we should examine it from every point of view, that that which entirelyis is entirely knowable, and that which in no way is is in every way unknowable.
Ἱκανώτατα.
Most sufficiently. Good.
Εἶεν· εἰ δὲ δή τι οὕτως ἔχει ὡς εἶναί τε καὶ μὴ εἶναι, οὐ
μεταξὺ ἂν κέοιτο τοῦ εἰλικρινῶς ὄντος καὶ τοῦ αὖ μηδαμῇ ὄντος;
If a thing, then, is so conditioned as both to be and not to be, would it not lie between that which absolutely and unqualifiedly is and that which in no way is?
Μεταξύ.
Between.
Οὐκοῦν ἐπὶ μὲν τῷ ὄντι γνῶσις ἦν, ἀγνωσία δ' ἐξ ἀνάγκης
ἐπὶ μὴ ὄντι, ἐπὶ δὲ τῷ μεταξὺ τούτῳ μεταξύ τι καὶ ζητητέον
477b ἀγνοίας τε καὶ ἐπιστήμης, εἴ τι τυγχάνει ὂν τοιοῦτον;
Then if knowledge pertains to that which is and ignorance of necessity to that which is not, for that which lies between we must seek for something between nescience and science, if such a thing there be.
Πάνυ μὲν οὖν.
By all means.
Ἆρ' οὖν λέγομέν τι δόξαν εἶναι;
Is there a thing which we call opinion?
Πῶς γὰρ οὔ;
Surely.
Πότερον ἄλλην δύναμιν ἐπιστήμης ἢ τὴν αὐτήν;
Is it a different faculty from science or the same?
Ἄλλην.
A different.
Ἐπ' ἄλλῳ ἄρα τέτακται δόξα καὶ ἐπ' ἄλλῳ ἐπιστήμη,
κατὰ τὴν δύναμιν ἑκατέρα τὴν αὑτῆς.
Then opinion is set over one thing and science over another, each by virtue of its own distinctive power or faculty.
Οὕτω.
That is so.
Οὐκοῦν ἐπιστήμη μὲν ἐπὶ τῷ ὄντι πέφυκε, γνῶναι ὡς
ἔστι τὸ ὄν; —μᾶλλον δὲ ὧδέ μοι δοκεῖ πρότερον ἀναγκαῖον
εἶναι διελέσθαι.
May we say, then, that science is naturally related to that which is, to know that and how that which is is? But rather, before we proceed, I think we must draw the following distinctions.
Πῶς;
What ones?
477c Φήσομεν δυνάμεις εἶναι γένος τι τῶν ὄντων, αἷς δὴ καὶ
ἡμεῖς δυνάμεθα ἃ δυνάμεθα καὶ ἄλλο πᾶν ὅτι περ ἂν δύνηται,
οἷον λέγω ὄψιν καὶ ἀκοὴν τῶν δυνάμεων εἶναι, εἰ ἄρα
μανθάνεις ὃ βούλομαι λέγειν τὸ εἶδος.
Shall we say that faculties, powers, abilities are a class of entities by virtue of which we and all other things are able to do what we or they are able to do? I mean that sight and hearing, for example, are faculties, if so be that you understand the class or type that I am trying to describe.
Ἀλλὰ μανθάνω, ἔφη.
I understand, he said.
Ἄκουσον δὴ ὅ μοι φαίνεται περὶ αὐτῶν. δυνάμεως γὰρ
ἐγὼ οὔτε τινὰ χρόαν ὁρῶ οὔτε σχῆμα οὔτε τι τῶν τοιούτων
οἷον καὶ ἄλλων πολλῶν, πρὸς ἃ ἀποβλέπων ἔνια διορίζομαι
παρ' ἐμαυτῷ τὰ μὲν ἄλλα εἶναι, τὰ δὲ ἄλλα· δυνάμεως
477d δ' εἰς ἐκεῖνο μόνον βλέπω ἐφ' ᾧ τε ἔστι καὶ ὃ ἀπεργάζεται,
καὶ ταύτῃ ἑκάστην αὐτῶν δύναμιν ἐκάλεσα, καὶ τὴν μὲν
ἐπὶ τῷ αὐτῷ τεταγμένην καὶ τὸ αὐτὸ ἀπεργαζομένην τὴν
αὐτὴν καλῶ, τὴν δὲ ἐπὶ ἑτέρῳ καὶ ἕτερον ἀπεργαζομένην
ἄλλην. τί δὲ σύ; πῶς ποιεῖς;
Hear, then, my notion about them. In a faculty I cannot see any color or shape or similar mark such as those on which in many other cases I fix my eyes in discriminating in my thought one thing from another. But in the case of a faculty I look to one thing only—that to which it is related and what it effects, and it is in this way that I come to call each one of them a faculty, and that which is related to the same thing and accomplishes the same thing I call the same faculty, and that to another I call other. How about you, what is your practice?
Οὕτως, ἔφη.
The same, he said.
Δεῦρο δὴ πάλιν, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, ὦ ἄριστε. ἐπιστήμην πότερον
δύναμίν τινα φῂς εἶναι αὐτήν, ἢ εἰς τί γένος τιθεῖς;
Εἰς τοῦτο, ἔφη, πασῶν γε δυνάμεων ἐρρωμενεστάτην.
To return, then, my friend, said I, to science or true knowledge, do you say that it is a faculty and a power, or in what class do you put it?
477e Τί δέ, δόξαν εἰς δύναμιν ἢ εἰς ἄλλο εἶδος οἴσομεν;
Into this, he said, the most potent of all faculties. And opinion—shall we assign it to some other class than faculty.
Οὐδαμῶς, ἔφη· ᾧ γὰρ δοξάζειν δυνάμεθα, οὐκ ἄλλο τι
ἢ δόξα ἐστίν.
By no means, he said, for that by which we are able to opine is nothing else than the faculty of opinion.
Ἀλλὰ μὲν δὴ ὀλίγον γε πρότερον ὡμολόγεις μὴ τὸ αὐτὸ
εἶναι ἐπιστήμην τε καὶ δόξαν.
But not long ago you agreed that science and opinion are not identical.
Πῶς γὰρ ἄν, ἔφη, τό γε ἀναμάρτητον τῷ μὴ ἀναμαρτήτῳ
ταὐτόν τις νοῦν ἔχων τιθείη;
How could any rational man affirm the identity of the infallible with the fallible?
Καλῶς, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, καὶ δῆλον ὅτι ἕτερον ἐπιστήμης δόξα
478a ὁμολογεῖται ἡμῖν.
Excellent, said I, and we are plainly agreed that opinion is a different thing from scientific knowledge.
Ἕτερον.
Yes, different.
Ἐφ' ἑτέρῳ ἄρα ἕτερόν τι δυναμένη ἑκατέρα αὐτῶν
πέφυκεν;
Each of them, then, since it has a different power, is related to a different object.
Ἀνάγκη.
Of necessity.
Ἐπιστήμη μέν γέ που ἐπὶ τῷ ὄντι, τὸ ὂν γνῶναι ὡς ἔχει;
Ναί.
Science, I presume, to that which is, to know the condition of that which is.
Δόξα δέ, φαμέν, δοξάζειν;
But opinion, we say, opines.
Ναί.
Yes.
Ἦ ταὐτὸν ὅπερ ἐπιστήμη γιγνώσκει; καὶ ἔσται γνωστόν
τε καὶ δοξαστὸν τὸ αὐτό; ἢ ἀδύνατον;
Does it opine the same thing that science knows, and will the knowable and the opinable be identical, or is that impossible?
Ἀδύνατον, ἔφη, ἐκ τῶν ὡμολογημένων· εἴπερ ἐπ' ἄλλῳ
ἄλλη δύναμις πέφυκεν, δυνάμεις δὲ ἀμφότεραί ἐστον, δόξα τε
478b καὶ ἐπιστήμη, ἄλλη δὲ ἑκατέρα, ὥς φαμεν, ἐκ τούτων δὴ οὐκ
ἐγχωρεῖ γνωστὸν καὶ δοξαστὸν ταὐτὸν εἶναι.
Impossible by our admissions, he said. If different faculties are naturally related to different objects and both opinion and science are faculties, but each different from the other, as we say—these admissions do not leave place for the identity of the knowable and the opinable.
Οὐκοῦν εἰ τὸ ὂν γνωστόν, ἄλλο τι ἂν δοξαστὸν ἢ τὸ
ὂν εἴη;
Then, if that which is is knowable, something other than that which is would be the opinable.
Ἄλλο.
Something else. Does it opine that which is not, or is it impossible even to opine that which is not?
Ἆρ' οὖν τὸ μὴ ὂν δοξάζει; ἢ ἀδύνατον καὶ δοξάσαι τό γε
μὴ ὄν; ἐννόει δέ. οὐχ ὁ δοξάζων ἐπὶ τὶ φέρει τὴν δόξαν;
ἢ οἷόν τε αὖ δοξάζειν μέν, δοξάζειν δὲ μηδέν;
Reflect: Does not he who opines bring his opinion to bear upon something or shall we reverse ourselves and say that it is possible to opine, yet opine nothing?
Ἀδύνατον.
That is impossible.
Ἀλλ' ἕν γέ τι δοξάζει ὁ δοξάζων;
Then he who opines opines some one thing.
Ναί.
Yes.
Ἀλλὰ μὴν μὴ ὄν γε οὐχ ἕν τι ἀλλὰ μηδὲν ὀρθότατ' ἂν
478c προσαγορεύοιτο;
But surely that which is not could not be designated as some one thing, but
Πάνυ γε.
most rightly as nothing at all.
Μὴ ὄντι μὴν ἄγνοιαν ἐξ ἀνάγκης ἀπέδομεν, ὄντι δὲ
γνῶσιν;
To that which is not we of necessity assigned nescience, and to that which is, knowledge.
Ὀρθῶς, ἔφη.
Rightly, he said.
Οὐκ ἄρα ὂν οὐδὲ μὴ ὂν δοξάζει;
Then neither that which is nor that which is not is the object of opinion.
Οὐ γάρ.
It seems not.
Οὔτε ἄρα ἄγνοια οὔτε γνῶσις δόξα ἂν εἴη;
Then opinion would be neither nescience nor knowledge.
Οὐκ ἔοικεν.
So it seems.
Ἄρ' οὖν ἐκτὸς τούτων ἐστίν, ὑπερβαίνουσα ἢ γνῶσιν
σαφηνείᾳ ἢ ἄγνοιαν ἀσαφείᾳ;
Is it then a faculty outside of these, exceeding either knowledge in lucidity or ignorance in obscurity?
Οὐδέτερα.
It is neither.
Ἀλλ' ἆρα, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, γνώσεως μέν σοι φαίνεται δόξα
σκοτωδέστερον, ἀγνοίας δὲ φανότερον;
But do you deem opinion something darker than knowledge but brighter than ignorance?
Καὶ πολύ γε, ἔφη.
Much so, he said.
478d Ἐντὸς δ' ἀμφοῖν κεῖται;
And does it lie within the boundaries of the two?
Ναί.
Yes.
Μεταξὺ ἄρα ἂν εἴη τούτοιν δόξα.
Then opinion would be between the two.
Κομιδῇ μὲν οὖν.
Most assuredly.
Οὐκοῦν ἔφαμεν ἐν τοῖς πρόσθεν, εἴ τι φανείη οἷον ἅμα
ὄν τε καὶ μὴ ὄν, τὸ τοιοῦτον μεταξὺ κεῖσθαι τοῦ εἰλικρινῶς
ὄντος τε καὶ τοῦ πάντως μὴ ὄντος, καὶ οὔτε ἐπιστήμην οὔτε
ἄγνοιαν ἐπ' αὐτῷ ἔσεσθαι, ἀλλὰ τὸ μεταξὺ αὖ φανὲν ἀγνοίας
καὶ ἐπιστήμης;
Were we not saying a little while ago that if anything should turn up such that it both is and is not, that sort of thing would lie between that which purely and absolutely is and that which wholly is not, and that the faculty correlated with it would be neither science or nescience, but that which should appear to hold a place correspondingly between nescience and science.
Ὀρθῶς.
Right.
Νῦν δέ γε πέφανται μεταξὺ τούτοιν ὃ δὴ καλοῦμεν δόξαν;
And now there has turned up between these two the thing that we call opinion.
Πέφανται.
There has.
478e Ἐκεῖνο δὴ λείποιτ' ἂν ἡμῖν εὑρεῖν, ὡς ἔοικε, τὸ ἀμφοτέρων
μετέχον, τοῦ εἶναί τε καὶ μὴ εἶναι, καὶ οὐδέτερον εἰλικρινὲς
ὀρθῶς ἂν προσαγορευόμενον, ἵνα, ἐὰν φανῇ, δοξαστὸν
αὐτὸ εἶναι ἐν δίκῃ προσαγορεύωμεν, τοῖς μὲν ἄκροις τὰ ἄκρα,
τοῖς δὲ μεταξὺ τὰ μεταξὺ ἀποδιδόντες. ἢ οὐχ οὕτως;
It would remain, then, as it seems, for us to discover that which partakes of both, of to be and not to be, and that could not be rightly designated either in its exclusive purity; so that, if it shall be discovered, we may justly pronounce it to be the opinable, thus assigning extremes to extremes and the intermediate to the intermediate. Is not that so?
Οὕτω.
It is.
Τούτων δὴ ὑποκειμένων λεγέτω μοι, φήσω, καὶ ἀποκρινέσθω
479a ὁ χρηστὸς ὃς αὐτὸ μὲν καλὸν καὶ ἰδέαν τινὰ αὐτοῦ
κάλλους μηδεμίαν ἡγεῖται ἀεὶ μὲν κατὰ ταὐτὰ ὡσαύτως
ἔχουσαν, πολλὰ δὲ τὰ καλὰ νομίζει, ἐκεῖνος ὁ φιλοθεάμων
καὶ οὐδαμῇ ἀνεχόμενος ἄν τις ἓν τὸ καλὸν φῇ εἶναι καὶ
δίκαιον καὶ τἆλλα οὕτω. "Τούτων γὰρ δή, ὦ ἄριστε, φήσομεν,
τῶν πολλῶν καλῶν μῶν τι ἔστιν ὃ οὐκ αἰσχρὸν
φανήσεται; καὶ τῶν δικαίων, ὃ οὐκ ἄδικον; καὶ τῶν ὁσίων,
ὃ οὐκ ἀνόσιον;"
This much premised, let him tell me, I will say, let him answer me, that good fellow who does not think there is a beautiful in itself or any idea of beauty in itself always remaining the same and unchanged, but who does believe in many beautiful things—the lover of spectacles, I mean, who cannot endure to hear anybody say that the beautiful is one and the just one, and so of other things—and this will be our question: My good fellow, is there any one of these many fair-and-honorable things that will not sometimes appear ugly and base? And of the just things, that will not seem unjust? And of the pious things, that will not seem impious?
479b Οὔκ, ἀλλ' ἀνάγκη, ἔφη, καὶ καλά πως αὐτὰ καὶ αἰσχρὰ
φανῆναι, καὶ ὅσα ἄλλα ἐρωτᾷς.
No, it is inevitable, he said, that they would appear to be both beautiful in a way and ugly, and so with all the other things you asked about.
Τί δὲ τὰ πολλὰ διπλάσια; ἧττόν τι ἡμίσεα ἢ διπλάσια
φαίνεται;
And again, do the many double things appear any the less halves than doubles?
Οὐδέν.
None the less.
Καὶ μεγάλα δὴ καὶ σμικρὰ καὶ κοῦφα καὶ βαρέα μή τι
μᾶλλον ἃ ἂν φήσωμεν, ταῦτα προσρηθήσεται ἢ τἀναντία;
And likewise of the great and the small things, the light and the heavy things—will they admit these predicates any more than their opposites?
Οὔκ, ἀλλ' ἀεί, ἔφη, ἕκαστον ἀμφοτέρων ἕξεται.
No, he said, each of them will always hold of, partake of, both.
Πότερον οὖν ἔστι μᾶλλον ἢ οὐκ ἔστιν ἕκαστον τῶν
πολλῶν τοῦτο ὃ ἄν τις φῇ αὐτὸ εἶναι;
Then is each of these multiples rather than it is not that which one affirms it to be?
Τοῖς ἐν ταῖς ἑστιάσεσιν, ἔφη, ἐπαμφοτερίζουσιν ἔοικεν,
479c καὶ τῷ τῶν παίδων αἰνίγματι τῷ περὶ τοῦ εὐνούχου, τῆς
βολῆς πέρι τῆς νυκτερίδος, ᾧ καὶ ἐφ' οὗ αὐτὸν αὐτὴν αἰνίττονται
βαλεῖν· καὶ γὰρ ταῦτα ἐπαμφοτερίζειν, καὶ οὔτ'
εἶναι οὔτε μὴ εἶναι οὐδὲν αὐτῶν δυνατὸν παγίως νοῆσαι,
οὔτε ἀμφότερα οὔτε οὐδέτερον.
They are like those jesters who palter with us in a double sense at banquets, he replied, and resemble the children’s riddle about the eunuch and his hitting of the bat—with what and as it sat on what they signify that he struck it. For these things too equivocate, and it is impossible to conceive firmly any one of them to be or not to be or both or neither. Do you know what to do with them, then?
Ἔχεις οὖν αὐτοῖς, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, ὅτι χρήσῃ, ἢ ὅποι θήσεις
καλλίω θέσιν τῆς μεταξὺ οὐσίας τε καὶ τοῦ μὴ εἶναι; οὔτε
γάρ που σκοτωδέστερα μὴ ὄντος πρὸς τὸ μᾶλλον μὴ εἶναι
479d φανήσεται, οὔτε φανότερα ὄντος πρὸς τὸ μᾶλλον εἶναι.
said I, and can you find a better place to put them than that midway between existence or essence and the not-to-be? For we shall surely not discover a darker region than not-being that they should still more not be, nor brighter than being that they should still more be.
Ἀληθέστατα, ἔφη.
Most true, he said.
Ηὑρήκαμεν ἄρα, ὡς ἔοικεν, ὅτι τὰ τῶν πολλῶν πολλὰ
νόμιμα καλοῦ τε πέρι καὶ τῶν ἄλλων μεταξύ που κυλινδεῖται
τοῦ τε μὴ ὄντος καὶ τοῦ ὄντος εἰλικρινῶς.
We would seem to have found, then, that the many conventions of the many about the fair and honorable and other things are tumbled about in the mid-region between that which is not and that which is in the true and absolute sense.
Ηὑρήκαμεν.
We have so found it.
Προωμολογήσαμεν δέ γε, εἴ τι τοιοῦτον φανείη, δοξαστὸν
αὐτὸ ἀλλ' οὐ γνωστὸν δεῖν λέγεσθαι, τῇ μεταξὺ δυνάμει τὸ
μεταξὺ πλανητὸν ἁλισκόμενον.
But we agreed in advance that, if anything of that sort should be discovered, it must be denominated opinable, not knowable, the wanderer between being caught by the faculty that is betwixt and between.
Ὡμολογήκαμεν.
We did.
479e Τοὺς ἄρα πολλὰ καλὰ θεωμένους, αὐτὸ δὲ τὸ καλὸν μὴ
ὁρῶντας μηδ' ἄλλῳ ἐπ' αὐτὸ ἄγοντι δυναμένους ἕπεσθαι,
καὶ πολλὰ δίκαια, αὐτὸ δὲ τὸ δίκαιον μή, καὶ πάντα οὕτω,
δοξάζειν φήσομεν ἅπαντα, γιγνώσκειν δὲ ὧν δοξάζουσιν
οὐδέν.
We shall affirm, then, that those who view many beautiful things but do not see the beautiful itself and are unable to follow another’s guidance to it, and many just things, but not justice itself, and so in all cases—we shall say that such men have opinions about all things, but know nothing of the things they opine.
Ἀνάγκη, ἔφη.
Of necessity.
Τί δὲ αὖ τοὺς αὐτὰ ἕκαστα θεωμένους καὶ ἀεὶ κατὰ ταὐτὰ
ὡσαύτως ὄντα; ἆρ' οὐ γιγνώσκειν ἀλλ' οὐ δοξάζειν;
And, on the other hand, what of those who contemplate the very things themselves in each case, ever remaining the same and unchanged—shall we not say that they know and do not merely opine?
Ἀνάγκη καὶ ταῦτα.
That, too, necessarily follows.
Οὐκοῦν καὶ ἀσπάζεσθαί τε καὶ φιλεῖν τούτους μὲν ταῦτα
480a φήσομεν ἐφ' οἷς γνῶσίς ἐστιν, ἐκείνους δὲ ἐφ' οἷς δόξα; ἢ
οὐ μνημονεύομεν ὅτι φωνάς τε καὶ χρόας καλὰς καὶ τὰ
τοιαῦτ' ἔφαμεν τούτους φιλεῖν τε καὶ θεᾶσθαι, αὐτὸ δὲ τὸ
καλὸν οὐδ' ἀνέχεσθαι ὥς τι ὄν;
Shall we not also say that the one welcomes to his thought and loves the things subject to knowledge and the other those to opinion? Do we not remember that we said that those loved and regarded tones and beautiful colours and the like, but they could not endure the notion of the reality of the beautiful itself?
Μεμνήμεθα.
We do remember.
Μὴ οὖν τι πλημμελήσομεν φιλοδόξους καλοῦντες αὐτοὺς
μᾶλλον ἢ φιλοσόφους; καὶ ἆρα ἡμῖν σφόδρα χαλεπανοῦσιν
ἂν οὕτω λέγωμεν;
Shall we then offend their ears if we call them doxophilists rather than philosophers and will they be very angry if we so speak?
Οὔκ, ἄν γέ μοι πείθωνται, ἔφη· τῷ γὰρ ἀληθεῖ χαλεπαίνειν
οὐ θέμις.
Not if they heed my counsel, he said, for to be angry with truth is not lawful.
Τοὺς αὐτὸ ἄρα ἕκαστον τὸ ὂν ἀσπαζομένους φιλοσόφους
ἀλλ' οὐ φιλοδόξους κλητέον;
Then to those who in each and every kind welcome the true being, lovers of wisdom and not lovers of opinion is the name we must give.
Παντάπασι μὲν οὖν.
By all means.