Burnet (OCT, 1902) · Shorey (1930)
Shorey (1930)
327a Κατέβην χθὲς εἰς Πειραιᾶ μετὰ Γλαύκωνος τοῦ Ἀρίστωνος
προσευξόμενός τε τῇ θεῷ καὶ ἅμα τὴν ἑορτὴν βουλόμενος
θεάσασθαι τίνα τρόπον ποιήσουσιν ἅτε νῦν πρῶτον ἄγοντες.
καλὴ μὲν οὖν μοι καὶ τῶν ἐπιχωρίων πομπὴ ἔδοξεν εἶναι,
οὐ μέντοι ἧττον ἐφαίνετο πρέπειν ἣν οἱ Θρᾷκες ἔπεμπον.
I went down yesterday to the Peiraeus with Glaucon, the son of Ariston, to pay my devotions to the Goddess, and also because I wished to see how they would conduct the festival since this was its inauguration. I thought the procession of the citizens very fine, but it was no better than the show, made by the marching of the Thracian contingent.
327b προσευξάμενοι δὲ καὶ θεωρήσαντες ἀπῇμεν πρὸς τὸ ἄστυ.
κατιδὼν οὖν πόρρωθεν ἡμᾶς οἴκαδε ὡρμημένους Πολέμαρχος
Κεφάλου ἐκέλευσε δραμόντα τὸν παῖδα περιμεῖναί
κελεῦσαι. καί μου ὄπισθεν παῖς λαβόμενος τοῦ ἱματίου,
Κελεύει ὑμᾶς, ἔφη, Πολέμαρχος περιμεῖναι. Καὶ ἐγὼ
μετεστράφην τε καὶ ἠρόμην ὅπου αὐτὸς εἴη. Οὗτος, ἔφη,
ὄπισθεν προσέρχεται· ἀλλὰ περιμένετε. Ἀλλὰ περιμενοῦμεν,
δ' ὃς Γλαύκων.
327c Καὶ ὀλίγῳ ὕστερον τε Πολέμαρχος ἧκε καὶ Ἀδείμαντος
τοῦ Γλαύκωνος ἀδελφὸς καὶ Νικήρατος Νικίου καὶ
ἄλλοι τινὲς ὡς ἀπὸ τῆς πομπῆς.
οὖν Πολέμαρχος ἔφη· Σώκρατες, δοκεῖτέ μοι πρὸς
ἄστυ ὡρμῆσθαι ὡς ἀπιόντες.
Οὐ γὰρ κακῶς δοξάζεις, ἦν δ' ἐγώ.
Ὁρᾷς οὖν ἡμᾶς, ἔφη, ὅσοι ἐσμέν;
Πῶς γὰρ οὔ;
τοίνυν τούτων, ἔφη, κρείττους γένεσθε μένετ' αὐτοῦ.
Οὐκοῦν, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, ἔτι ἓν λείπεται, τὸ ἢν πείσωμεν ὑμᾶς
ὡς χρὴ ἡμᾶς ἀφεῖναι;
καὶ δύναισθ' ἄν, δ' ὅς, πεῖσαι μὴ ἀκούοντας;
Οὐδαμῶς, ἔφη Γλαύκων.
Ὡς τοίνυν μὴ ἀκουσομένων, οὕτω διανοεῖσθε.
After we had said our prayers and seen the spectacle we were starting for town when Polemarchus, the son of Cephalus, caught sight of us from a distance as we were hastening homeward and ordered his boy run and bid us to wait for him, and the boy caught hold of my himation from behind and said, Polemarchus wants you to wait. And I turned around and asked where his master was. There he is, he said, behind you, coming this way. Wait for him. So we will, said Glaucon, and shortly after Polemarchus came up and Adeimantus, the brother of Glaucon, and Niceratus, the son of Nicias, and a few others apparently from the procession. Whereupon Polemarchus said, Socrates, you appear to have turned your faces townward and to be going to leave us. Not a bad guess, said I. But you see how many we are? he said. Surely. You must either then prove yourselves the better men or stay here. Why, is there not left, said I, the alternative of our persuading you that you ought to let us go? But could you persuade us, said he, if we refused to listen? Nohow, said Glaucon. Well, we won’t listen, and you might as well make up your minds to it.
328a Καὶ Ἀδείμαντος, Ἆρά γε, δ' ὅς, οὐδ' ἴστε ὅτι
λαμπὰς ἔσται πρὸς ἑσπέραν ἀφ' ἵππων τῇ θεῷ;
Ἀφ' ἵππων; ἦν δ' ἐγώ· καινόν γε τοῦτο. λαμπάδια
ἔχοντες διαδώσουσιν ἀλλήλοις ἁμιλλώμενοι τοῖς ἵπποις;
πῶς λέγεις;
Οὕτως, ἔφη Πολέμαρχος. καὶ πρός γε παννυχίδα
ποιήσουσιν, ἣν ἄξιον θεάσασθαι· ἐξαναστησόμεθα γὰρ μετὰ
τὸ δεῖπνον καὶ τὴν παννυχίδα θεασόμεθα. καὶ συνεσόμεθά
τε πολλοῖς τῶν νέων αὐτόθι καὶ διαλεξόμεθα. ἀλλὰ μένετε

Do you mean to say, interposed Adeimantus, that you haven’t heard that there is to be a torchlight race this evening on horseback in honor of the Goddess? On horseback? said I. That is a new idea. Will they carry torches and pass them along to one another as they race with the horses, or how do you mean? That’s the way of it, said Polemarchus, and, besides, there is to be a night festival which will be worth seeing. For after dinner we will get up and go out and see the sights and meet a lot of the lads there and have good talk. So stay and do as we ask. It looks as if we should have to stay, said Glaucon. Well, said I, if it so be, so be it.

328b καὶ μὴ ἄλλως ποιεῖτε.
Καὶ Γλαύκων, Ἔοικεν, ἔφη, μενετέον εἶναι.
Ἀλλ' εἰ δοκεῖ, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, οὕτω χρὴ ποιεῖν.
Ἦιμεν οὖν οἴκαδε εἰς τοῦ Πολεμάρχου, καὶ Λυσίαν τε
αὐτόθι κατελάβομεν καὶ Εὐθύδημον, τοὺς τοῦ Πολεμάρχου
ἀδελφούς, καὶ δὴ καὶ Θρασύμαχον τὸν Καλχηδόνιον καὶ
Χαρμαντίδην τὸν Παιανιᾶ καὶ Κλειτοφῶντα τὸν Ἀριστωνύμου·
ἦν δ' ἔνδον καὶ πατὴρ τοῦ Πολεμάρχου Κέφαλος.
καὶ μάλα πρεσβύτης μοι ἔδοξεν εἶναι· διὰ χρόνου γὰρ καὶ
328c ἑωράκη αὐτόν. καθῆστο δὲ ἐστεφανωμένος ἐπί τινος προσκεφαλαίου
τε καὶ δίφρου· τεθυκὼς γὰρ ἐτύγχανεν ἐν τῇ αὐλῇ.
ἐκαθεζόμεθα οὖν παρ' αὐτόν· ἔκειντο γὰρ δίφροι τινὲς αὐτόθι
κύκλῳ.
Εὐθὺς οὖν με ἰδὼν Κέφαλος ἠσπάζετό τε καὶ εἶπεν·
Σώκρατες, οὐ δὲ θαμίζεις ἡμῖν καταβαίνων εἰς τὸν
Πειραιᾶ. χρῆν μέντοι. εἰ μὲν γὰρ ἐγὼ ἔτι ἐν δυνάμει
τοῦ ῥᾳδίως πορεύεσθαι πρὸς τὸ ἄστυ, οὐδὲν ἂν σὲ ἔδει δεῦρο
328d ἰέναι, ἀλλ' ἡμεῖς ἂν παρὰ σὲ ᾖμεν· νῦν δέ σε χρὴ πυκνότερον
δεῦρο ἰέναι. ὡς εὖ ἴσθι ὅτι ἔμοιγε ὅσον αἱ ἄλλαι αἱ
κατὰ τὸ σῶμα ἡδοναὶ ἀπομαραίνονται, τοσοῦτον αὔξονται αἱ
περὶ τοὺς λόγους ἐπιθυμίαι τε καὶ ἡδοναί. μὴ οὖν ἄλλως
ποίει, ἀλλὰ τοῖσδέ τε τοῖς νεανίσκοις σύνισθι καὶ δεῦρο παρ'
ἡμᾶς φοίτα ὡς παρὰ φίλους τε καὶ πάνυ οἰκείους.
Καὶ μήν, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, Κέφαλε, χαίρω γε διαλεγόμενος
328e τοῖς σφόδρα πρεσβύταις· δοκεῖ γάρ μοι χρῆναι παρ' αὐτῶν
πυνθάνεσθαι, ὥσπερ τινὰ ὁδὸν προεληλυθότων ἣν καὶ ἡμᾶς
ἴσως δεήσει πορεύεσθαι, ποία τίς ἐστιν, τραχεῖα καὶ χαλεπή,
ῥᾳδία καὶ εὔπορος. καὶ δὴ καὶ σοῦ ἡδέως ἂν πυθοίμην
ὅτι σοι φαίνεται τοῦτο, ἐπειδὴ ἐνταῦθα ἤδη εἶ τῆς ἡλικίας
δὴ "ἐπὶ γήραος οὐδῷ" φασιν εἶναι οἱ ποιηταί, πότερον
χαλεπὸν τοῦ βίου, πῶς σὺ αὐτὸ ἐξαγγέλλεις.
So we went with them to Polemarchus’s house, and there we found Lysias and Euthydemus, the brothers of Polemarchus, yes, and Thrasymachus, too, of Chalcedon, and Charmantides of the deme of Paeania, and Kleitophon the son of Aristonymus. And the father of Polemarchus, Cephalus, was also at home.
And I thought him much aged, for it was a long time since I had seen him. He was sitting on a sort of couch with cushions and he had a chaplet on his head, for he had just finished sacrificing in the court. So we went and sat down beside him, for there were seats there disposed in a circle. As soon as he saw me Cephalus greeted me and said, You are not a very frequent visitor, Socrates. You don’t often come down to the Peiraeus to see us. That is not right. For if I were still able to make the journey up to town easily there would be no need of your resorting hither, but we would go to visit you. But as it is you should not space too widely your visits here. For I would have you know that, for my part, as the satisfactions of the body decay, in the same measure my desire for the pleasures of good talk and my delight in them increase. Don’t refuse then, but be yourself a companion to these lads and make our house your resort and regard us as your very good friends and intimates. Why, yes, Cephalus, said I, and I enjoy talking with the very aged. For to my thinking we have to learn of them as it were from wayfarers who have preceded us on a road on which we too, it may be, must some time fare—what it is like—is it rough and hard going or easy and pleasant to travel. And so now I would fain learn of you what you think of this thing, now that your time has come to it, the thing that the poets call the threshold of old age. Is it a hard part of life to bear or what report have you to make of it?
329a Ἐγώ σοι, ἔφη, νὴ τὸν Δία ἐρῶ, Σώκρατες, οἷόν γέ μοι
φαίνεται. πολλάκις γὰρ συνερχόμεθά τινες εἰς ταὐτὸν παραπλησίαν
ἡλικίαν ἔχοντες, διασῴζοντες τὴν παλαιὰν παροιμίαν·
οἱ οὖν πλεῖστοι ἡμῶν ὀλοφύρονται συνιόντες, τὰς
ἐν τῇ νεότητι ἡδονὰς ποθοῦντες καὶ ἀναμιμνῃσκόμενοι περί
τε τἀφροδίσια καὶ περὶ πότους τε καὶ εὐωχίας καὶ ἄλλ' ἄττα
τῶν τοιούτων ἔχεται, καὶ ἀγανακτοῦσιν ὡς μεγάλων τινῶν
ἀπεστερημένοι καὶ τότε μὲν εὖ ζῶντες, νῦν δὲ οὐδὲ ζῶντες.
329b ἔνιοι δὲ καὶ τὰς τῶν οἰκείων προπηλακίσεις τοῦ γήρως
ὀδύρονται, καὶ ἐπὶ τούτῳ δὴ τὸ γῆρας ὑμνοῦσιν ὅσων κακῶν
σφίσιν αἴτιον. ἐμοὶ δὲ δοκοῦσιν, Σώκρατες, οὗτοι οὐ τὸ
αἴτιον αἰτιᾶσθαι. εἰ γὰρ ἦν τοῦτ' αἴτιον, κἂν ἐγὼ τὰ αὐτὰ
ταῦτα ἐπεπόνθη, ἕνεκά γε γήρως, καὶ οἱ ἄλλοι πάντες ὅσοι
ἐνταῦθα ἦλθον ἡλικίας. νῦν δ' ἔγωγε ἤδη ἐντετύχηκα οὐχ
οὕτως ἔχουσιν καὶ ἄλλοις, καὶ δὴ καὶ Σοφοκλεῖ ποτε τῷ
ποιητῇ παρεγενόμην ἐρωτωμένῳ ὑπό τινος· "Πῶς," ἔφη,
329c " Σοφόκλεις, ἔχεις πρὸς τἀφροδίσια; ἔτι οἷός τε εἶ
γυναικὶ συγγίγνεσθαικαὶ ὅς, "Εὐφήμει," ἔφη, "
ἄνθρωπε· ἁσμενέστατα μέντοι αὐτὸ ἀπέφυγον, ὥσπερ λυττῶντά
τινα καὶ ἄγριον δεσπότην ἀποδράς." εὖ οὖν μοι καὶ
τότε ἔδοξεν ἐκεῖνος εἰπεῖν, καὶ νῦν οὐχ ἧττον. παντάπασι
γὰρ τῶν γε τοιούτων ἐν τῷ γήρᾳ πολλὴ εἰρήνη γίγνεται καὶ
ἐλευθερία· ἐπειδὰν αἱ ἐπιθυμίαι παύσωνται κατατείνουσαι
καὶ χαλάσωσιν, παντάπασιν τὸ τοῦ Σοφοκλέους γίγνεται,

Yes, indeed, Socrates, he said, I will tell you my own feeling about it. For it often happens that some of us elders of about the same age come together and verify the old saw of like to like. At these reunions most of us make lament, longing for the lost joys of youth and recalling to mind the pleasures of wine, women, and feasts, and other things thereto appertaining, and they repine in the belief that the greatest things have been taken from them and that then they lived well and now it is no life at all. And some of them complain of the indignities that friends and kinsmen put upon old age and thereto recite a doleful litany of all the miseries for which they blame old age. But in my opinion, Socrates, they do not put the blame on the real cause. For if it were the cause I too should have had the same experience so far as old age is concerned, and so would all others who have come to this time of life. But in fact I have ere now met with others who do not feel in this way, and in particular I remember hearing Sophocles the poet greeted by a fellow who asked, How about your service of Aphrodite, Sophocles—is your natural force still unabated? And he replied, Hush, man, most gladly have I escaped this thing you talk of, as if I had run away from a raging and savage beast of a master. I thought it a good answer then and now I think so still more. For in very truth there comes to old age a great tranquillity in such matters and a blessed release. When the fierce tensions of the passions and desires relax, then is the word of Sophocles approved, and we are rid of many and mad masters. But indeed in respect of these complaints and in the matter of our relations with kinsmen and friends there is just one cause, Socrates—not old age, but the character of the man. For if men are temperate and cheerful even old age is only moderately burdensome. But if the reverse, old age, Socrates, and youth are hard for such dispositions.

329d δεσποτῶν πάνυ πολλῶν ἐστι καὶ μαινομένων ἀπηλλάχθαι.
ἀλλὰ καὶ τούτων πέρι καὶ τῶν γε πρὸς τοὺς οἰκείους μία τις
αἰτία ἐστίν, οὐ τὸ γῆρας, Σώκρατες, ἀλλ' τρόπος τῶν
ἀνθρώπων. ἂν μὲν γὰρ κόσμιοι καὶ εὔκολοι ὦσιν, καὶ τὸ
γῆρας μετρίως ἐστὶν ἐπίπονον· εἰ δὲ μή, καὶ γῆρας,
Σώκρατες, καὶ νεότης χαλεπὴ τῷ τοιούτῳ συμβαίνει.
Καὶ ἐγὼ ἀγασθεὶς αὐτοῦ εἰπόντος ταῦτα, βουλόμενος ἔτι
And I was filled with admiration for the man by these words, and desirous of hearing more I tried to draw him out and said, I fancy, Cephalus, that most people, when they hear you talk in this way, are not convinced but think that you bear old age lightly not because of your character but because of your wealth. For the rich, they say, have many consolations.
329e λέγειν αὐτὸν ἐκίνουν καὶ εἶπον· Κέφαλε, οἶμαί σου τοὺς
πολλούς, ὅταν ταῦτα λέγῃς, οὐκ ἀποδέχεσθαι ἀλλ' ἡγεῖσθαί
σε ῥᾳδίως τὸ γῆρας φέρειν οὐ διὰ τὸν τρόπον ἀλλὰ διὰ
τὸ πολλὴν οὐσίαν κεκτῆσθαι· τοῖς γὰρ πλουσίοις πολλὰ
παραμύθιά φασιν εἶναι.
Ἀληθῆ, ἔφη, λέγεις· οὐ γὰρ ἀποδέχονται. καὶ λέγουσι
μέν τι, οὐ μέντοι γε ὅσον οἴονται· ἀλλὰ τὸ τοῦ Θεμιστοκλέους
εὖ ἔχει, ὃς τῷ Σεριφίῳ λοιδορουμένῳ καὶ λέγοντι
330a ὅτι οὐ δι' αὑτὸν ἀλλὰ διὰ τὴν πόλιν εὐδοκιμοῖ, ἀπεκρίνατο
ὅτι οὔτ' ἂν αὐτὸς Σερίφιος ὢν ὀνομαστὸς ἐγένετο οὔτ'
ἐκεῖνος Ἀθηναῖος. καὶ τοῖς δὴ μὴ πλουσίοις, χαλεπῶς δὲ
τὸ γῆρας φέρουσιν, εὖ ἔχει αὐτὸς λόγος, ὅτι οὔτ' ἂν
ἐπιεικὴς πάνυ τι ῥᾳδίως γῆρας μετὰ πενίας ἐνέγκοι οὔθ'
μὴ ἐπιεικὴς πλουτήσας εὔκολός ποτ' ἂν ἑαυτῷ γένοιτο.
Πότερον δέ, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, Κέφαλε, ὧν κέκτησαι τὰ πλείω
παρέλαβες ἐπεκτήσω;
330b Ποῖ' ἐπεκτησάμην, ἔφη, Σώκρατες; μέσος τις γέγονα
χρηματιστὴς τοῦ τε πάππου καὶ τοῦ πατρός. μὲν γὰρ
πάππος τε καὶ ὁμώνυμος ἐμοὶ σχεδόν τι ὅσην ἐγὼ νῦν
οὐσίαν κέκτημαι παραλαβὼν πολλάκις τοσαύτην ἐποίησεν,
Λυσανίας δὲ πατὴρ ἔτι ἐλάττω αὐτὴν ἐποίησε τῆς νῦν
οὔσης· ἐγὼ δὲ ἀγαπῶ ἐὰν μὴ ἐλάττω καταλίπω τούτοισιν,
ἀλλὰ βραχεῖ γέ τινι πλείω παρέλαβον.
Οὗ τοι ἕνεκα ἠρόμην, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, ὅτι μοι ἔδοξας οὐ σφόδρα
330c ἀγαπᾶν τὰ χρήματα, τοῦτο δὲ ποιοῦσιν ὡς τὸ πολὺ οἳ ἂν
μὴ αὐτοὶ κτήσωνται· οἱ δὲ κτησάμενοι διπλῇ οἱ ἄλλοι
ἀσπάζονται αὐτά. ὥσπερ γὰρ οἱ ποιηταὶ τὰ αὑτῶν ποιήματα
καὶ οἱ πατέρες τοὺς παῖδας ἀγαπῶσιν, ταύτῃ τε δὴ καὶ
οἱ χρηματισάμενοι περὶ τὰ χρήματα σπουδάζουσιν ὡς ἔργον
ἑαυτῶν, καὶ κατὰ τὴν χρείαν ᾗπερ οἱ ἄλλοι. χαλεποὶ οὖν
καὶ συγγενέσθαι εἰσίν, οὐδὲν ἐθέλοντες ἐπαινεῖν ἀλλ' τὸν
πλοῦτον.
Ἀληθῆ, ἔφη, λέγεις.

You are right, he said. They don’t accept my view and there is something in their objection, though not so much as they suppose. But the retort of Themistocles comes in pat here, who, when a man from the little island of Seriphus grew abusive and told him that he owed his fame not to himself but to the city from which he came, replied that neither would he himself ever have made a name if he had been born in Seriphus nor the other if he had been an Athenian. And the same principle applies excellently to those who not being rich take old age hard; for neither would the reasonable man find it altogether easy to endure old age conjoined with poverty, nor would the unreasonable man by the attainment of riches ever attain to self-contentment and a cheerful temper. May I ask, Cephalus, said I, whether you inherited most of your possessions or acquired them yourself? Acquired, eh? he said. As a moneymaker, I hold a place somewhere halfway between my grandfather and my father. For my grandfather and namesake inherited about as much property as I now possess and multiplied it many times, my father Lysanias reduced it below the present amount, and I am content if I shall leave the estate to these boys not less but by some slight measure more than my inheritance. The reason I asked, I said, is that you appear to me not to be over-fond of money. And that is generally the case with those who have not earned it themselves. But those who have themselves acquired it have a double reason in comparison with other men for loving it. For just as poets feel complacency about their own poems and fathers about their own sons, so men who have made money take this money seriously as their own creation and they also value it for its uses as other people do. So they are hard to talk to since they are unwilling to commend anything except wealth.

330d Πάνυ μὲν οὖν, ἦν δ' ἐγώ. ἀλλά μοι ἔτι τοσόνδε εἰπέ·
τί μέγιστον οἴει ἀγαθὸν ἀπολελαυκέναι τοῦ πολλὴν οὐσίαν
κεκτῆσθαι;
, δ' ὅς, ἴσως οὐκ ἂν πολλοὺς πείσαιμι λέγων. εὖ
γὰρ ἴσθι, ἔφη, Σώκρατες, ὅτι, ἐπειδάν τις ἐγγὺς τοῦ
οἴεσθαι τελευτήσειν, εἰσέρχεται αὐτῷ δέος καὶ φροντὶς περὶ
ὧν ἔμπροσθεν οὐκ εἰσῄει. οἵ τε γὰρ λεγόμενοι μῦθοι περὶ
τῶν ἐν Ἅιδου, ὡς τὸν ἐνθάδε ἀδικήσαντα δεῖ ἐκεῖ διδόναι
330e δίκην, καταγελώμενοι τέως, τότε δὴ στρέφουσιν αὐτοῦ τὴν
ψυχὴν μὴ ἀληθεῖς ὦσιν· καὶ αὐτόςἤτοι ὑπὸ τῆς τοῦ γήρως
ἀσθενείας καὶ ὥσπερ ἤδη ἐγγυτέρω ὢν τῶν ἐκεῖ μᾶλλόν
τι καθορᾷ αὐτάὑποψίας δ' οὖν καὶ δείματος μεστὸς γίγνεται
καὶ ἀναλογίζεται ἤδη καὶ σκοπεῖ εἴ τινά τι ἠδίκησεν.
μὲν οὖν εὑρίσκων ἑαυτοῦ ἐν τῷ βίῳ πολλὰ ἀδικήματα καὶ
ἐκ τῶν ὕπνων, ὥσπερ οἱ παῖδες, θαμὰ ἐγειρόμενος δειμαίνει
You are right, he replied. I assuredly am, said I. But tell me further this. What do you regard as the greatest benefit you have enjoyed from the possession of property? Something, he said, which I might not easily bring many to believe if I told them. For let me tell you, Socrates, he said, that when a man begins to realize that he is going to die, he is filled with apprehensions and concern about matters that before did not occur to him. The tales that are told of the world below and how the men who have done wrong here must pay the penalty there, though he may have laughed them down hitherto, then begin to torture his soul with the doubt that there may be some truth in them. And apart from that the man himself either from the weakness of old age or possibly as being now nearer to the things beyond has a somewhat clearer view of them. Be that as it may, he is filled with doubt, surmises, and alarms and begins to reckon up and consider whether he has ever wronged anyone.
331a καὶ ζῇ μετὰ κακῆς ἐλπίδος· τῷ δὲ μηδὲν ἑαυτῷ ἄδικον
συνειδότι ἡδεῖα ἐλπὶς ἀεὶ πάρεστι καὶ ἀγαθὴ γηροτρόφος,
ὡς καὶ Πίνδαρος λέγει. χαριέντως γάρ τοι, Σώκρατες,
τοῦτ' ἐκεῖνος εἶπεν, ὅτι ὃς ἂν δικαίως καὶ ὁσίως τὸν βίον
διαγάγῃ,
γλυκεῖά οἱ καρδίαν
ἀτάλλοισα γηροτρόφος συναορεῖ
ἐλπὶς μάλιστα θνατῶν πολύστροφον
γνώμαν κυβερνᾷ.
εὖ οὖν λέγει θαυμαστῶς ὡς σφόδρα. πρὸς δὴ τοῦτ' ἔγωγε
τίθημι τὴν τῶν χρημάτων κτῆσιν πλείστου ἀξίαν εἶναι, οὔ
331b τι παντὶ ἀνδρὶ ἀλλὰ τῷ ἐπιεικεῖ καὶ κοσμίῳ. τὸ γὰρ μηδὲ
ἄκοντά τινα ἐξαπατῆσαι ψεύσασθαι, μηδ' αὖ ὀφείλοντα
θεῷ θυσίας τινὰς ἀνθρώπῳ χρήματα ἔπειτα ἐκεῖσε ἀπιέναι
δεδιότα, μέγα μέρος εἰς τοῦτο τῶν χρημάτων κτῆσις συμβάλλεται.
ἔχει δὲ καὶ ἄλλας χρείας πολλάς· ἀλλὰ ἕν γε
ἀνθ' ἑνὸς οὐκ ἐλάχιστον ἔγωγε θείην ἂν εἰς τοῦτο ἀνδρὶ
νοῦν ἔχοντι, Σώκρατες, πλοῦτον χρησιμώτατον εἶναι.
331c Παγκάλως, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, λέγεις, Κέφαλε. τοῦτο δ' αὐτό,
τὴν δικαιοσύνην, πότερα τὴν ἀλήθειαν αὐτὸ φήσομεν εἶναι
ἁπλῶς οὕτως καὶ τὸ ἀποδιδόναι ἄν τίς τι παρά του λάβῃ,
καὶ αὐτὰ ταῦτα ἔστιν ἐνίοτε μὲν δικαίως, ἐνίοτε δὲ ἀδίκως
ποιεῖν; οἷον τοιόνδε λέγω· πᾶς ἄν που εἴποι, εἴ τις λάβοι
παρὰ φίλου ἀνδρὸς σωφρονοῦντος ὅπλα, εἰ μανεὶς ἀπαιτοῖ,
ὅτι οὔτε χρὴ τὰ τοιαῦτα ἀποδιδόναι, οὔτε δίκαιος ἂν εἴη
ἀποδιδούς, οὐδ' αὖ πρὸς τὸν οὕτως ἔχοντα πάντα ἐθέλων
τἀληθῆ λέγειν.
331d Ὀρθῶς, ἔφη, λέγεις.
Οὐκ ἄρα οὗτος ὅρος ἐστὶν δικαιοσύνης, ἀληθῆ τε λέγειν
καὶ ἂν λάβῃ τις ἀποδιδόναι.
Πάνυ μὲν οὖν, ἔφη, Σώκρατες, ὑπολαβὼν Πολέμαρχος,
εἴπερ γέ τι χρὴ Σιμωνίδῃ πείθεσθαι.
Καὶ μέντοι, ἔφη Κέφαλος, καὶ παραδίδωμι ὑμῖν τὸν
λόγον· δεῖ γάρ με ἤδη τῶν ἱερῶν ἐπιμεληθῆναι.
Οὐκοῦν, ἔφη, ἐγώ, Πολέμαρχος, τῶν γε σῶν κληρονόμος;
Πάνυ γε, δ' ὃς γελάσας, καὶ ἅμα ᾔει πρὸς τὰ ἱερά.

Now he to whom the ledger of his life shows an account of many evil deeds starts up even from his dreams like children again and again in affright and his days are haunted by anticipations of worse to come. But on him who is conscious of no wrong that he has done a sweet hope ever attends and a goodly to be nurse of his old age, as Pindar too says. For a beautiful saying it is, Socrates, of the poet that when a man lives out his days in justice and pietysweet companion with him, to cheer his heart and nurse his old age, accompanies Hope, who chiefly rules the changeful mind of mortals. Pindar Frag. 214, Loeb That is a fine saying and an admirable. It is for this, then, that I affirm that the possession of wealth is of most value not it may be to every man but to the good man. Not to cheat any man even unintentionally or play him false, not remaining in debt to a god for some sacrifice or to a man for money, so to depart in fear to that other world—to this result the possession of property contributes not a little. It has also many other uses. But, setting one thing against another, I would lay it down, Socrates, that for a man of sense this is the chief service of wealth. An admirable sentiment, Cephalus, said I. But speaking of this very thing, justice, are we to affirm thus without qualification that it is truth-telling and paying back what one has received from anyone, or may these very actions sometimes be just and sometimes unjust? I mean, for example, as everyone I presume would admit, if one took over weapons from a friend who was in his right mind and then the lender should go mad and demand them back, that we ought not to return them in that case and that he who did so return them would not be acting justly—nor yet would he who chose to speak nothing but the truth to one who was in that state. You are right, he replied. Then this is not the definition of justice: to tell the truth and return what one has received. Nay, but it is, Socrates, said Polemarchus breaking in, if indeed we are to put any faith in Simonides. Very well, said Cephalus, indeed I make over the whole argument to you. For it is time for me to attend the sacrifices. Well, said I, is not Polemarchus the heir of everything that is yours? Certainly, said he with a laugh, and at the same time went out to the sacred rites.

331e Λέγε δή, εἶπον ἐγώ, σὺ τοῦ λόγου κληρονόμος, τί φῂς
τὸν Σιμωνίδην λέγοντα ὀρθῶς λέγειν περὶ δικαιοσύνης;
Ὅτι, δ' ὅς, τὸ τὰ ὀφειλόμενα ἑκάστῳ ἀποδιδόναι
δίκαιόν ἐστι· τοῦτο λέγων δοκεῖ ἔμοιγε καλῶς λέγειν.
Ἀλλὰ μέντοι, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, Σιμωνίδῃ γε οὐ ῥᾴδιον ἀπιστεῖνσοφὸς
γὰρ καὶ θεῖος ἀνήρτοῦτο μέντοι ὅτι ποτὲ
λέγει, σὺ μέν, Πολέμαρχε, ἴσως γιγνώσκεις, ἐγὼ δὲ
ἀγνοῶ· δῆλον γὰρ ὅτι οὐ τοῦτο λέγει, ὅπερ ἄρτι ἐλέγομεν,
τό τινος παρακαταθεμένου τι ὁτῳοῦν μὴ σωφρόνως ἀπαιτοῦντι
332a ἀποδιδόναι. καίτοι γε ὀφειλόμενόν πού ἐστιν τοῦτο
παρακατέθετο· γάρ;
Ναί.
Ἀποδοτέον δέ γε οὐδ' ὁπωστιοῦν τότε ὁπότε τις μὴ
σωφρόνως ἀπαιτοῖ;
Ἀληθῆ, δ' ὅς.
Ἄλλο δή τι τὸ τοιοῦτον, ὡς ἔοικεν, λέγει Σιμωνίδης τὸ
τὰ ὀφειλόμενα δίκαιον εἶναι ἀποδιδόναι.
Ἄλλο μέντοι νὴ Δί', ἔφη· τοῖς γὰρ φίλοις οἴεται
ὀφείλειν τοὺς φίλους ἀγαθὸν μέν τι δρᾶν, κακὸν δὲ μηδέν.
Μανθάνω, ἦν δ' ἐγώὅτι οὐ τὰ ὀφειλόμενα ἀποδίδωσιν
ὃς ἄν τῳ χρυσίον ἀποδῷ παρακαταθεμένῳ, ἐάνπερ ἀπόδοσις
332b καὶ λῆψις βλαβερὰ γίγνηται, φίλοι δὲ ὦσιν τε
ἀπολαμβάνων καὶ ἀποδιδούςοὐχ οὕτω λέγειν φῂς τὸν
Σιμωνίδην;
Πάνυ μὲν οὖν.
Τί δέ; τοῖς ἐχθροῖς ἀποδοτέον ὅτι ἂν τύχῃ ὀφειλόμενον;
Παντάπασι μὲν οὖν, ἔφη, γε ὀφείλεται αὐτοῖς, ὀφείλεται
δέ γε οἶμαι παρά γε τοῦ ἐχθροῦ τῷ ἐχθρῷ ὅπερ καὶ
προσήκει, κακόν τι.
Ἠινίξατο ἄρα, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, ὡς ἔοικεν, Σιμωνίδης ποιητικῶς

Tell me, then, you the inheritor of the argument, what it is that you affirm that Simonides says and rightly says about justice. That it is just, he replied, to render to each his due. In saying this I think he speaks well.

I must admit, said I, that it is not easy to disbelieve Simonides. For he is a wise and inspired man. But just what he may mean by this you, Polemarchus, doubtless know, but I do not. Obviously he does not mean what we were just speaking of, this return of a deposit to anyone whatsoever even if he asks it back when not in his right mind. And yet what the man deposited is due to him in a sense, is it not? Yes. But rendered to him it ought not to be by any manner of means when he demands it not being his right mind. True, said he. It is then something other than this that Simonides must, as it seems, mean by the saying that it is just to render back what is due. Something else in very deed, he replied, for he believes that friends owe it to friends to do them some good and no evil. I see, said I; you mean that he does not render what is due or owing who returns a deposit of gold if this return and the acceptance prove harmful and the returner and the recipient are friends. Isn’t that what you say Simonides means? Quite so. But how about this—should one not render to enemies what is their due? By all means, he said, what is due and owing to them, and there is due and owing from an enemy to an enemy what also is proper for him, some evil.

332c τὸ δίκαιον εἴη. διενοεῖτο μὲν γάρ, ὡς φαίνεται,
ὅτι τοῦτ' εἴη δίκαιον, τὸ προσῆκον ἑκάστῳ ἀποδιδόναι, τοῦτο
δὲ ὠνόμασεν ὀφειλόμενον.
Ἀλλὰ τί οἴει; ἔφη.
πρὸς Διός, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, εἰ οὖν τις αὐτὸν ἤρετο· "
Σιμωνίδη, τίσιν οὖν τί ἀποδιδοῦσα ὀφειλόμενον καὶ
προσῆκον τέχνη ἰατρικὴ καλεῖται;" τί ἂν οἴει ἡμῖν αὐτὸν
ἀποκρίνασθαι;
Δῆλον ὅτι, ἔφη, σώμασιν φάρμακά τε καὶ σιτία καὶ
ποτά.
δὲ τίσιν τί ἀποδιδοῦσα ὀφειλόμενον καὶ προσῆκον
τέχνη μαγειρικὴ καλεῖται;
332d τοῖς ὄψοις τὰ ἡδύσματα.
Εἶεν· οὖν δὴ τίσιν τί ἀποδιδοῦσα τέχνη δικαιοσύνη ἂν
καλοῖτο;
Εἰ μέν τι, ἔφη, δεῖ ἀκολουθεῖν, Σώκρατες, τοῖς ἔμπροσθεν
εἰρημένοις, τοῖς φίλοις τε καὶ ἐχθροῖς ὠφελίας
τε καὶ βλάβας ἀποδιδοῦσα.
Τὸ τοὺς φίλους ἄρα εὖ ποιεῖν καὶ τοὺς ἐχθροὺς κακῶς
δικαιοσύνην λέγει;
Δοκεῖ μοι.
Τίς οὖν δυνατώτατος κάμνοντας φίλους εὖ ποιεῖν καὶ
ἐχθροὺς κακῶς πρὸς νόσον καὶ ὑγίειαν;
Ἰατρός.
332e Τίς δὲ πλέοντας πρὸς τὸν τῆς θαλάττης κίνδυνον;
Κυβερνήτης.
Τί δὲ δίκαιος; ἐν τίνι πράξει καὶ πρὸς τί ἔργον
δυνατώτατος φίλους ὠφελεῖν καὶ ἐχθροὺς βλάπτειν;
Ἐν τῷ προσπολεμεῖν καὶ ἐν τῷ συμμαχεῖν, ἔμοιγε δοκεῖ.
Εἶεν· μὴ κάμνουσί γε μήν, φίλε Πολέμαρχε, ἰατρὸς
ἄχρηστος.
Ἀληθῆ.
Καὶ μὴ πλέουσι δὴ κυβερνήτης.
Ναί.
Ἆρα καὶ τοῖς μὴ πολεμοῦσιν δίκαιος ἄχρηστος;
Οὐ πάνυ μοι δοκεῖ τοῦτο.
Χρήσιμον ἄρα καὶ ἐν εἰρήνῃ δικαιοσύνη;
It was a riddling definition of justice, then, that Simonides gave after the manner of poets; for while his meaning, it seems, was that justice is rendering to each what befits him, the name that he gave to this was the due. What else do you suppose? said he. In heaven’s name! said I, suppose someone had questioned him thus: Tell me, Simonides, the art that renders what that is due and befitting to what is called the art of medicine. What do you take it would have been his answer? Obviously, he said, the art that renders to bodies drugs, foods, and drinks. And the art that renders to what things what that is due and befitting is called the culinary art? Seasoning to meats. Good. In the same way tell me the art that renders what to whom would be denominated justice. If we are to follow the previous examples, Socrates, it is that which renders benefits and harms to friends and enemies. To do good to friends and evil to enemies, then, is justice in his meaning? I think so. Who then is the most able when they are ill to benefit friends and harm enemies in respect to disease and health? The physician. And who navigators in respect of the perils of the sea? The pilot. Well then, the just man, in what action and for what work is he the most competent to benefit friends and harm enemies? In making war and as an ally, I should say. Very well. But now if they are not sick, friend Polemarchus, the physician is useless to them. True. And so to those who are not at sea the pilot. Yes. Shall we also say this that for those who are not at war the just man is useless?
333a Χρήσιμον.
Καὶ γὰρ γεωργία· οὔ;
Ναί.
Πρός γε καρποῦ κτῆσιν;
Ναί.
Καὶ μὴν καὶ σκυτοτομική;
Ναί.
Πρός γε ὑποδημάτων ἂν οἶμαι φαίης κτῆσιν;
Πάνυ γε.
Τί δὲ δή; τὴν δικαιοσύνην πρὸς τίνος χρείαν κτῆσιν
ἐν εἰρήνῃ φαίης ἂν χρήσιμον εἶναι;
Πρὸς τὰ συμβόλαια, Σώκρατες.
Συμβόλαια δὲ λέγεις κοινωνήματα τι ἄλλο;
Κοινωνήματα δῆτα.
333b Ἆρ' οὖν δίκαιος ἀγαθὸς καὶ χρήσιμος κοινωνὸς εἰς
πεττῶν θέσιν, πεττευτικός;
πεττευτικός.
Ἀλλ' εἰς πλίνθων καὶ λίθων θέσιν δίκαιος χρησιμώτερός
τε καὶ ἀμείνων κοινωνὸς τοῦ οἰκοδομικοῦ;
Οὐδαμῶς.
Ἀλλ' εἰς τίνα δὴ κοινωνίαν δίκαιος ἀμείνων κοινωνὸς
τοῦ οἰκοδομικοῦ τε καὶ κιθαριστικοῦ, ὥσπερ κιθαριστικὸς
τοῦ δικαίου εἰς κρουμάτων;
Εἰς ἀργυρίου, ἔμοιγε δοκεῖ.
Πλήν γ' ἴσως, Πολέμαρχε, πρὸς τὸ χρῆσθαι ἀργυρίῳ,
ὅταν δέῃ ἀργυρίου κοινῇ πρίασθαι ἀποδόσθαι ἵππον· τότε
333c δέ, ὡς ἐγὼ οἶμαι, ἱππικός. γάρ;
Φαίνεται.
Καὶ μὴν ὅταν γε πλοῖον, ναυπηγὸς κυβερνήτης;
Ἔοικεν.
Ὅταν οὖν τί δέῃ ἀργυρίῳ χρυσίῳ κοινῇ χρῆσθαι,
δίκαιος χρησιμώτερος τῶν ἄλλων;
Ὅταν παρακαταθέσθαι καὶ σῶν εἶναι, Σώκρατες.
Οὐκοῦν λέγεις ὅταν μηδὲν δέῃ αὐτῷ χρῆσθαι ἀλλὰ
κεῖσθαι;
Πάνυ γε.
Ὅταν ἄρα ἄχρηστον ἀργύριον, τότε χρήσιμος ἐπ' αὐτῷ
333d δικαιοσύνη;
Κινδυνεύει.
Καὶ ὅταν δὴ δρέπανον δέῃ φυλάττειν, δικαιοσύνη χρήσιμος
καὶ κοινῇ καὶ ἰδίᾳ· ὅταν δὲ χρῆσθαι, ἀμπελουργική;
Φαίνεται.
Φήσεις δὲ καὶ ἀσπίδα καὶ λύραν ὅταν δέῃ φυλάττειν καὶ
μηδὲν χρῆσθαι, χρήσιμον εἶναι τὴν δικαιοσύνην, ὅταν δὲ
χρῆσθαι, τὴν ὁπλιτικὴν καὶ τὴν μουσικήν;
Ἀνάγκη.
Καὶ περὶ τἆλλα δὴ πάντα δικαιοσύνη ἑκάστου ἐν μὲν
χρήσει ἄχρηστος, ἐν δὲ ἀχρηστίᾳ χρήσιμος;
Κινδυνεύει.

By no means. There is a use then even in peace for justice? Yes, it is useful. But so is agriculture, isn’t it? Yes. Namely, for the getting of a harvest? Yes. But likewise the cobbler’s art? Yes. Namely, I presume you would say, for the getting of shoes. Certainly. Then tell me, for the service and getting of what would you say that justice is useful in time of peace? In engagements and dealings, Socrates. And by dealings do you mean associations, partnerships, or something else? Associations, of course. Is it the just man, then, who is a good and useful associate and partner in the placing of draughts or the draught-player? The player. And in the placing of bricks and stones is the just man a more useful and better associate than the builder? By no means. Then what is the association in which the just man is a better partner than the harpist as an harpist is better than the just man for striking the chords? For money-dealings, I think. Except, I presume, Polemarchus, for the use of money when there is occasion to buy in common or sell a horse. Then, I take it, the man who knows horses, isn’t it so? Apparently. And again, if it is a vessel, the shipwright or the pilot. It would seem so. What then is the use of money in common for which a just man is the better partner? When it is to be deposited and kept safe, Socrates. You mean when it is to be put to no use but is to lie idle? Quite so. Then it is when money is useless that justice is useful in relation to it? It looks that way. And similarly when a scythe is to be kept safe, then justice is useful both in public and private. But when it is to be used, the vinedresser’s art is useful? Apparently. And so you will have to say that when a shield and a lyre are to be kept and put to no use, justice is useful, but when they are to be made use of, the military art and music. Necessarily. And so in all other cases, in the use of each thing, justice is useless but in its uselessness useful? It looks that way.

333e Οὐκ ἂν οὖν, φίλε, πάνυ γέ τι σπουδαῖον εἴη
δικαιοσύνη, εἰ πρὸς τὰ ἄχρηστα χρήσιμον ὂν τυγχάνει.
τόδε δὲ σκεψώμεθα. ἆρ' οὐχ πατάξαι δεινότατος ἐν μάχῃ
εἴτε πυκτικῇ εἴτε τινὶ καὶ ἄλλῃ, οὗτος καὶ φυλάξασθαι;
Πάνυ γε.
Ἆρ' οὖν καὶ νόσον ὅστις δεινὸς φυλάξασθαι, καὶ λαθεῖν
οὗτος δεινότατος ἐμποιήσας;
Ἔμοιγε δοκεῖ.
334a Ἀλλὰ μὴν στρατοπέδου γε αὐτὸς φύλαξ ἀγαθός, ὅσπερ
καὶ τὰ τῶν πολεμίων κλέψαι καὶ βουλεύματα καὶ τὰς ἄλλας
πράξεις;
Πάνυ γε.
Ὅτου τις ἄρα δεινὸς φύλαξ, τούτου καὶ φὼρ δεινός.
Ἔοικεν.
Εἰ ἄρα δίκαιος ἀργύριον δεινὸς φυλάττειν, καὶ κλέπτειν
δεινός.
Ὡς γοῦν λόγος, ἔφη, σημαίνει.
Κλέπτης ἄρα τις δίκαιος, ὡς ἔοικεν, ἀναπέφανται, καὶ
κινδυνεύεις παρ' Ὁμήρου μεμαθηκέναι αὐτό· καὶ γὰρ ἐκεῖνος
334b τὸν τοῦ Ὀδυσσέως πρὸς μητρὸς πάππον Αὐτόλυκον ἀγαπᾷ
τε καί φησιν αὐτὸν πάντας ἀνθρώπους κεκάσθαι κλεπτοσύνῃ
θ' ὅρκῳ τε. ἔοικεν οὖν δικαιοσύνη καὶ κατὰ
σὲ καὶ καθ' Ὅμηρον καὶ κατὰ Σιμωνίδην κλεπτική τις εἶναι,
ἐπ' ὠφελίᾳ μέντοι τῶν φίλων καὶ ἐπὶ βλάβῃ τῶν ἐχθρῶν.
οὐχ οὕτως ἔλεγες;
Οὐ μὰ τὸν Δί', ἔφη, ἀλλ' οὐκέτι οἶδα ἔγωγε ὅτι ἔλεγον·
τοῦτο μέντοι ἔμοιγε δοκεῖ ἔτι, ὠφελεῖν μὲν τοὺς φίλους
δικαιοσύνη, βλάπτειν δὲ τοὺς ἐχθρούς.
334c Φίλους δὲ λέγεις εἶναι πότερον τοὺς δοκοῦντας ἑκάστῳ
χρηστοὺς εἶναι, τοὺς ὄντας, κἂν μὴ δοκῶσι, καὶ ἐχθροὺς
ὡσαύτως;
Εἰκὸς μέν, ἔφη, οὓς ἄν τις ἡγῆται χρηστοὺς φιλεῖν, οὓς
δ' ἂν πονηροὺς μισεῖν.
Ἆρ' οὖν οὐχ ἁμαρτάνουσιν οἱ ἄνθρωποι περὶ τοῦτο, ὥστε
δοκεῖν αὐτοῖς πολλοὺς μὲν χρηστοὺς εἶναι μὴ ὄντας, πολλοὺς
δὲ τοὐναντίον;
Ἁμαρτάνουσιν.
Τούτοις ἄρα οἱ μὲν ἀγαθοὶ ἐχθροί, οἱ δὲ κακοὶ φίλοι;
Πάνυ γε.
Ἀλλ' ὅμως δίκαιον τότε τούτοις τοὺς μὲν πονηροὺς
334d ὠφελεῖν, τοὺς δὲ ἀγαθοὺς βλάπτειν;
Φαίνεται.
Ἀλλὰ μὴν οἵ γε ἀγαθοὶ δίκαιοί τε καὶ οἷοι μὴ ἀδικεῖν;
Ἀληθῆ.
Κατὰ δὴ τὸν σὸν λόγον τοὺς μηδὲν ἀδικοῦντας δίκαιον
κακῶς ποιεῖν.
Μηδαμῶς, ἔφη, Σώκρατες· πονηρὸς γὰρ ἔοικεν εἶναι
λόγος.
Τοὺς ἀδίκους ἄρα, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, δίκαιον βλάπτειν, τοὺς δὲ
δικαίους ὠφελεῖν;
Οὗτος ἐκείνου καλλίων φαίνεται.
Πολλοῖς ἄρα, Πολέμαρχε, συμβήσεται, ὅσοι διημαρτήκασιν
334e τῶν ἀνθρώπων, δίκαιον εἶναι τοὺς μὲν φίλους βλάπτεινπονηροὶ
γὰρ αὐτοῖς εἰσιντοὺς δ' ἐχθροὺς ὠφελεῖν
ἀγαθοὶ γάρ· καὶ οὕτως ἐροῦμεν αὐτὸ τοὐναντίον τὸν
Σιμωνίδην ἔφαμεν λέγειν.
Καὶ μάλα, ἔφη, οὕτω συμβαίνει. ἀλλὰ μεταθώμεθα·
κινδυνεύομεν γὰρ οὐκ ὀρθῶς τὸν φίλον καὶ ἐχθρὸν θέσθαι.
Πῶς θέμενοι, Πολέμαρχε;
Τὸν δοκοῦντα χρηστόν, τοῦτον φίλον εἶναι.
Νῦν δὲ πῶς, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, μεταθώμεθα;
Τὸν δοκοῦντά τε, δ' ὅς, καὶ τὸν ὄντα χρηστὸν φίλον·

Then, my friend, justice cannot be a thing of much worth if it is useful only for things out of use and useless. But let us consider this point. Is not the man who is most skilful to strike or inflict a blow in a fight, whether as a boxer or elsewhere, also the most wary to guard against a blow? Assuredly. Is it not also true that he who best knows how to guard against disease is also most cunning to communicate it and escape detection? I think so.

But again the very same man is a good guardian of an army who is good at stealing a march upon the enemy in respect of their designs and proceedings generally. Certainly. Of whatsoever, then, anyone is a skilful guardian, of that he is also a skilful thief? It seems so. If then the just man is an expert in guarding money he is an expert in stealing it. The argument certainly points that way. A kind of thief then the just man it seems has turned out to be, and it is likely that you acquired this idea from Homer. For he regards with complacency Autolycus, the maternal uncle of Odysseus, and says he was gifted beyond all men in thievery and perjury. Hom. Od. 19.395 So justice, according to you and Homer and Simonides, seems to be a kind of stealing, with the qualification that it is for the benefit of friends and the harm of enemies. Isn’t that what you meant? No, by Zeus, he replied. I no longer know what I did mean. Yet this I still believe, that justice benefits friends and harms enemies. May I ask whether by friends you mean those who seem to a man to be worthy or those who really are so, even if they do not seem, and similarly of enemies? It is likely, he said, that men will love those whom they suppose to be good and dislike those whom they deem bad. Do not men make mistakes in this matter so that many seem good to them who are not and the reverse? They do. For those, then, who thus err the good are their enemies and the bad their friends? Certainly. But all the same is then just for them to benefit the bad and injure the good? It would seem so. But again the good are just and incapable of injustice. True. On your reasoning then it is just to wrong those who do no injustice. Nay, nay, Socrates, he said, the reasoning can’t be right. Then, said I, it is just to harm the unjust and benefit the just. That seems a better conclusion than the other. It will work out, then, for many, Polemarchus, who have misjudged men that it is just to harm their friends, for they have got bad ones, and to benefit their enemies, for they are good. And so we shall find ourselves saying the very opposite of what we affirmed Simonides to mean. Most certainly, he said, it does work out so. But let us change our ground; for it looks as if we were wrong in the notion we took up about the friend and the enemy. What notion, Polemarchus? That the man who seems to us good is the friend. And to what shall we change it now? said I.

335a τὸν δὲ δοκοῦντα μέν, ὄντα δὲ μή, δοκεῖν ἀλλὰ μὴ εἶναι
φίλον. καὶ περὶ τοῦ ἐχθροῦ δὲ αὐτὴ θέσις.
Φίλος μὲν δή, ὡς ἔοικε, τούτῳ τῷ λόγῳ ἀγαθὸς ἔσται,
ἐχθρὸς δὲ πονηρός.
Ναί.
Κελεύεις δὴ ἡμᾶς προσθεῖναι τῷ δικαίῳ ὡς τὸ πρῶτον
ἐλέγομεν, λέγοντες δίκαιον εἶναι τὸν μὲν φίλον εὖ ποιεῖν,
τὸν δ' ἐχθρὸν κακῶς· νῦν πρὸς τούτῳ ὧδε λέγειν, ὅτι ἔστιν
δίκαιον τὸν μὲν φίλον ἀγαθὸν ὄντα εὖ ποιεῖν, τὸν δ' ἐχθρὸν
κακὸν ὄντα βλάπτειν;

That the man who both seems and is good is the friend, but that he who seems but is not really so seems but is not really the friend. And there will be the same assumption about the enemy. Then on this view it appears the friend will be the good man and the bad the enemy. Yes. So you would have us qualify our former notion of the just man by an addition. We then said it was just to do good to a friend and evil to an enemy, but now we are to add that it is just to benefit the friend if he is good and harm the enemy if he is bad? By all means, he said, that, I think, would be the right way to put it.

335b Πάνυ μὲν οὖν, ἔφη, οὕτως ἄν μοι δοκεῖ καλῶς λέγεσθαι.
Ἔστιν ἄρα, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, δικαίου ἀνδρὸς βλάπτειν καὶ
ὁντινοῦν ἀνθρώπων;
Καὶ πάνυ γε, ἔφη· τούς γε πονηρούς τε καὶ ἐχθροὺς δεῖ
βλάπτειν.
Βλαπτόμενοι δ' ἵπποι βελτίους χείρους γίγνονται;
Χείρους.
Ἆρα εἰς τὴν τῶν κυνῶν ἀρετήν, εἰς τὴν τῶν ἵππων;
Εἰς τὴν τῶν ἵππων.
Ἆρ' οὖν καὶ κύνες βλαπτόμενοι χείρους γίγνονται εἰς
τὴν τῶν κυνῶν ἀλλ' οὐκ εἰς τὴν τῶν ἵππων ἀρετήν;
Ἀνάγκη.
335c Ἀνθρώπους δέ, ἑταῖρε, μὴ οὕτω φῶμεν, βλαπτομένους
εἰς τὴν ἀνθρωπείαν ἀρετὴν χείρους γίγνεσθαι;
Πάνυ μὲν οὖν.
Ἀλλ' δικαιοσύνη οὐκ ἀνθρωπεία ἀρετή;
Καὶ τοῦτ' ἀνάγκη.
Καὶ τοὺς βλαπτομένους ἄρα, φίλε, τῶν ἀνθρώπων
ἀνάγκη ἀδικωτέρους γίγνεσθαι.
Ἔοικεν.
Ἆρ' οὖν τῇ μουσικῇ οἱ μουσικοὶ ἀμούσους δύνανται
ποιεῖν;
Ἀδύνατον.
Ἀλλὰ τῇ ἱππικῇ οἱ ἱππικοὶ ἀφίππους;
Οὐκ ἔστιν.
Ἀλλὰ τῇ δικαιοσύνῃ δὴ οἱ δίκαιοι ἀδίκους; καὶ
335d συλλήβδην ἀρετῇ οἱ ἀγαθοὶ κακούς;
Ἀλλὰ ἀδύνατον.
Οὐ γὰρ θερμότητος οἶμαι ἔργον ψύχειν ἀλλὰ τοῦ ἐναντίου.
Ναί.
Οὐδὲ ξηρότητος ὑγραίνειν ἀλλὰ τοῦ ἐναντίου.
Πάνυ γε.
Οὐδὲ δὴ τοῦ ἀγαθοῦ βλάπτειν ἀλλὰ τοῦ ἐναντίου.
Φαίνεται.
δέ γε δίκαιος ἀγαθός;
Πάνυ γε.
Οὐκ ἄρα τοῦ δικαίου βλάπτειν ἔργον, Πολέμαρχε, οὔτε
φίλον οὔτ' ἄλλον οὐδένα, ἀλλὰ τοῦ ἐναντίου, τοῦ ἀδίκου.
Παντάπασί μοι δοκεῖς ἀληθῆ λέγειν, ἔφη, Σώκρατες.
335e Εἰ ἄρα τὰ ὀφειλόμενα ἑκάστῳ ἀποδιδόναι φησίν τις δίκαιον
εἶναι, τοῦτο δὲ δὴ νοεῖ αὐτῷ τοῖς μὲν ἐχθροῖς βλάβην
ὀφείλεσθαι παρὰ τοῦ δικαίου ἀνδρός, τοῖς δὲ φίλοις ὠφελίαν,
οὐκ ἦν σοφὸς ταῦτα εἰπών. οὐ γὰρ ἀληθῆ ἔλεγεν·
οὐδαμοῦ γὰρ δίκαιον οὐδένα ἡμῖν ἐφάνη ὂν βλάπτειν.
Συγχωρῶ, δ' ὅς.
Μαχούμεθα ἄρα, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, κοινῇ ἐγώ τε καὶ σύ, ἐάν τις
αὐτὸ φῇ Σιμωνίδην Βίαντα Πιττακὸν εἰρηκέναι τιν'
ἄλλον τῶν σοφῶν τε καὶ μακαρίων ἀνδρῶν.
Ἐγὼ γοῦν, ἔφη, ἕτοιμός εἰμι κοινωνεῖν τῆς μάχης.
Is it then, said I, the part of a good man to harm anybody whatsoever? Certainly it is, he replied; a man ought to harm those who are both bad and his enemies. When horses are harmed does it make them better or worse? Worse. In respect of the excellence or virtue of dogs or that of horses? Of horses. And do not also dogs when harmed become worse in respect of canine and not of equine virtue? Necessarily. And men, my dear fellow, must we not say that when they are harmed it is in respect of the distinctive excellence or virtue of man that they become worse? Assuredly. And is not justice the specific virtue of man? That too must be granted. Then it must also be admitted, my friend, that men who are harmed become more unjust. It seems so. Do musicians then make men unmusical by the art of music? Impossible. Well, do horsemen by horsemanship unfit men for dealing with horses? No. By justice then do the just make men unjust, or in sum do the good by virtue make men bad? Nay, it is impossible. It is not, I take it, the function of heat to chill but of its opposite. Yes. Nor of dryness to moisten but of its opposite. Assuredly. Nor yet of the good to harm but of its opposite. So it appears. But the just man is good? Certainly. It is not then the function of the just man, Polemarchus, to harm either friend or anyone else, but of his opposite. I think you are altogether right, Socrates. If, then, anyone affirms that it is just to render to each his due and he means by this, that injury and harm is what is due to his enemies from the just man and benefits to his friends, he was no truly wise man who said it. For what he meant was not true. For it has been made clear to us that in no case is it just to harm anyone. I concede it, he said. We will take up arms against him, then, said I, you and I together, if anyone affirms that either Simonides or Bias or Pittacus or any other of the wise and blessed said such a thing. I, for my part, he said, am ready to join in the battle with you.
336a Ἀλλ' οἶσθα, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, οὗ μοι δοκεῖ εἶναι τὸ ῥῆμα, τὸ
φάναι δίκαιον εἶναι τοὺς μὲν φίλους ὠφελεῖν, τοὺς δ'
ἐχθροὺς βλάπτειν;
Τίνος; ἔφη.
Οἶμαι αὐτὸ Περιάνδρου εἶναι Περδίκκου Ξέρξου
Ἰσμηνίου τοῦ Θηβαίου τινος ἄλλου μέγα οἰομένου δύνασθαι
πλουσίου ἀνδρός.
Ἀληθέστατα, ἔφη, λέγεις.
Εἶεν, ἦν δ' ἐγώ· ἐπειδὴ δὲ οὐδὲ τοῦτο ἐφάνη δικαιοσύνη
ὂν οὐδὲ τὸ δίκαιον, τί ἂν ἄλλο τις αὐτὸ φαίη εἶναι;
Do you know, said I, to whom I think the saying belongs—this statement that it is just to benefit friends and harm enemies? To whom? he said. I think it was the saying of Periander or Perdiccas or Xerxes or Ismenias the Theban or some other rich man who had great power in his own conceit. That is most true, he replied. Very well, said I, since it has been made clear that this too is not justice and the just, what else is there that we might say justice to be?
336b Καὶ Θρασύμαχος πολλάκις μὲν καὶ διαλεγομένων ἡμῶν
μεταξὺ ὥρμα ἀντιλαμβάνεσθαι τοῦ λόγου, ἔπειτα ὑπὸ
τῶν παρακαθημένων διεκωλύετο βουλομένων διακοῦσαι τὸν
λόγον· ὡς δὲ διεπαυσάμεθα καὶ ἐγὼ ταῦτ' εἶπον, οὐκέτι
ἡσυχίαν ἦγεν, ἀλλὰ συστρέψας ἑαυτὸν ὥσπερ θηρίον ἧκεν
ἐφ' ἡμᾶς ὡς διαρπασόμενος.
Καὶ ἐγώ τε καὶ Πολέμαρχος δείσαντες διεπτοήθημεν·
δ' εἰς τὸ μέσον φθεγξάμενος, Τίς, ἔφη, ὑμᾶς πάλαι φλυαρία
336c ἔχει, Σώκρατες; καὶ τί εὐηθίζεσθε πρὸς ἀλλήλους ὑποκατακλινόμενοι
ὑμῖν αὐτοῖς; ἀλλ' εἴπερ ὡς ἀληθῶς βούλει
εἰδέναι τὸ δίκαιον ὅτι ἔστι, μὴ μόνον ἐρώτα μηδὲ φιλοτιμοῦ
ἐλέγχων ἐπειδάν τίς τι ἀποκρίνηται, ἐγνωκὼς τοῦτο, ὅτι
ῥᾷον ἐρωτᾶν ἀποκρίνεσθαι, ἀλλὰ καὶ αὐτὸς ἀπόκριναι καὶ
εἰπὲ τί φῂς εἶναι τὸ δίκαιον. καὶ ὅπως μοι μὴ ἐρεῖς ὅτι τὸ
336d δέον ἐστὶν μηδ' ὅτι τὸ ὠφέλιμον μηδ' ὅτι τὸ λυσιτελοῦν μηδ'
ὅτι τὸ κερδαλέον μηδ' ὅτι τὸ συμφέρον, ἀλλὰ σαφῶς μοι
καὶ ἀκριβῶς λέγε ὅτι ἂν λέγῃς· ὡς ἐγὼ οὐκ ἀποδέξομαι
ἐὰν ὕθλους τοιούτους λέγῃς.
Καὶ ἐγὼ ἀκούσας ἐξεπλάγην καὶ προσβλέπων αὐτὸν
ἐφοβούμην, καί μοι δοκῶ, εἰ μὴ πρότερος ἑωράκη αὐτὸν
ἐκεῖνος ἐμέ, ἄφωνος ἂν γενέσθαι. νῦν δὲ ἡνίκα ὑπὸ τοῦ
λόγου ἤρχετο ἐξαγριαίνεσθαι, προσέβλεψα αὐτὸν πρότερος,
Now Thrasymachus, even while we were conversing, had been trying several times to break in and lay hold of the discussion but he was restrained by those who sat by him who wished to hear the argument out. But when we came to a pause after I had said this, he couldn’t any longer hold his peace. But gathering himself up like a wild beast he hurled himself upon us as if he would tear us to pieces. And Polemarchus and I were frightened and fluttered apart, and he bawled out into our midst, What balderdash is this that you have been talking, and why do you Simple Simons truckle and give way to one another? But if you really wish, Socrates, to know what the just is, don’t merely ask questions or plume yourself upon controverting any answer that anyone gives—since your acumen has perceived that it is easier to ask questions than to answer them, but do you yourself answer and tell what you say the just is. And don’t you be telling me that it is that which ought to be, or the beneficial or the profitable or the gainful or the advantageous, but express clearly and precisely whatever you say. For I won’t take from you any such drivel as that! And I, when I heard him, was dismayed, and looking upon him was filled with fear, and I believe that if I had not looked at him before he did at me I should have lost my voice. But as it is, at the very moment when he began to be exasperated by the course of the argument I glanced at him first, so that I became capable of answering him and said with a light tremor: Thrasymachus, don’t be harsh with us. If I and my friend have made mistakes in the consideration of the question, rest assured that it is unwillingly that we err. For you surely must not suppose that while if our quest were for gold we would never willingly truckle to one another and make concessions in the search and so spoil our chances of finding it, yet that when we are searching for justice, a thing more precious than much fine gold, we should then be so foolish as to give way to one another and not rather do our serious best to have it discovered.
336e ὥστε αὐτῷ οἷός τ' ἐγενόμην ἀποκρίνασθαι, καὶ εἶπον ὑποτρέμων·
Θρασύμαχε, μὴ χαλεπὸς ἡμῖν ἴσθι· εἰ γάρ τι
ἐξαμαρτάνομεν ἐν τῇ τῶν λόγων σκέψει ἐγώ τε καὶ ὅδε, εὖ
ἴσθι ὅτι ἄκοντες ἁμαρτάνομεν. μὴ γὰρ δὴ οἴου, εἰ μὲν
χρυσίον ἐζητοῦμεν, οὐκ ἄν ποτε ἡμᾶς ἑκόντας εἶναι ὑποκατακλίνεσθαι
ἀλλήλοις ἐν τῇ ζητήσει καὶ διαφθείρειν τὴν
εὕρεσιν αὐτοῦ, δικαιοσύνην δὲ ζητοῦντας, πρᾶγμα πολλῶν
χρυσίων τιμιώτερον, ἔπειθ' οὕτως ἀνοήτως ὑπείκειν ἀλλήλοις
καὶ οὐ σπουδάζειν ὅτι μάλιστα φανῆναι αὐτό. οἴου γε σύ,
φίλε. ἀλλ' οἶμαι οὐ δυνάμεθα· ἐλεεῖσθαι οὖν ἡμᾶς πολὺ

You surely must not suppose that, my friend. But you see it is our lack of ability that is at fault. It is pity then that we should far more reasonably receive from clever fellows like you than severity.

337a μᾶλλον εἰκός ἐστίν που ὑπὸ ὑμῶν τῶν δεινῶν χαλεπαίνεσθαι.
Καὶ ὃς ἀκούσας ἀνεκάγχασέ τε μάλα σαρδάνιον καὶ εἶπεν·
Ἡράκλεις, ἔφη, αὕτη 'κείνη εἰωθυῖα εἰρωνεία Σωκράτους,
καὶ ταῦτ' ἐγὼ ᾔδη τε καὶ τούτοις προύλεγον, ὅτι σὺ
ἀποκρίνασθαι μὲν οὐκ ἐθελήσοις, εἰρωνεύσοιο δὲ καὶ πάντα
μᾶλλον ποιήσοις ἀποκρινοῖο, εἴ τίς τί σε ἐρωτᾷ.
Σοφὸς γὰρ εἶ, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, Θρασύμαχε· εὖ οὖν ᾔδησθα
ὅτι εἴ τινα ἔροιο ὁπόσα ἐστὶν τὰ δώδεκα, καὶ ἐρόμενος προείποις
337b αὐτῷ— "Ὅπως μοι, ἄνθρωπε, μὴ ἐρεῖς ὅτι ἔστιν τὰ
δώδεκα δὶς ἓξ μηδ' ὅτι τρὶς τέτταρα μηδ' ὅτι ἑξάκις δύο
μηδ' ὅτι τετράκις τρία· ὡς οὐκ ἀποδέξομαί σου ἐὰν τοιαῦτα
φλυαρῇς" —δῆλον οἶμαί σοι ἦν ὅτι οὐδεὶς ἀποκρινοῖτο τῷ
οὕτως πυνθανομένῳ. ἀλλ' εἴ σοι εἶπεν· " Θρασύμαχε,
πῶς λέγεις; μὴ ἀποκρίνωμαι ὧν προεῖπες μηδέν; πότερον,
θαυμάσιε, μηδ' εἰ τούτων τι τυγχάνει ὄν, ἀλλ' ἕτερον εἴπω τι
337c τοῦ ἀληθοῦς; πῶς λέγεις;" τί ἂν αὐτῷ εἶπες πρὸς ταῦτα;
Εἶεν, ἔφη· ὡς δὴ ὅμοιον τοῦτο ἐκείνῳ.
Οὐδέν γε κωλύει, ἦν δ' ἐγώ· εἰ δ' οὖν καὶ μὴ ἔστιν
ὅμοιον, φαίνεται δὲ τῷ ἐρωτηθέντι τοιοῦτον, ἧττόν τι αὐτὸν
οἴει ἀποκρινεῖσθαι τὸ φαινόμενον ἑαυτῷ, ἐάντε ἡμεῖς
ἀπαγορεύωμεν ἐάντε μή;
Ἄλλο τι οὖν, ἔφη, καὶ σὺ οὕτω ποιήσεις· ὧν ἐγὼ
ἀπεῖπον, τούτων τι ἀποκρινῇ;
Οὐκ ἂν θαυμάσαιμι, ἦν δ' ἐγώ· εἴ μοι σκεψαμένῳ οὕτω
δόξειεν.
337d Τί οὖν, ἔφη, ἂν ἐγὼ δείξω ἑτέραν ἀπόκρισιν παρὰ πάσας
ταύτας περὶ δικαιοσύνης, βελτίω τούτων; τί ἀξιοῖς παθεῖν;
Τί ἄλλο, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, ὅπερ προσήκει πάσχειν τῷ μὴ
εἰδότι; προσήκει δέ που μαθεῖν παρὰ τοῦ εἰδότος· καὶ ἐγὼ
οὖν τοῦτο ἀξιῶ παθεῖν.
Ἡδὺς γὰρ εἶ, ἔφη· ἀλλὰ πρὸς τῷ μαθεῖν καὶ ἀπότεισον
ἀργύριον.
Οὐκοῦν ἐπειδάν μοι γένηται, εἶπον.
Ἀλλ' ἔστιν, ἔφη Γλαύκων. ἀλλ' ἕνεκα ἀργυρίου,
Θρασύμαχε, λέγε· πάντες γὰρ ἡμεῖς Σωκράτει εἰσοίσομεν.
And he on hearing this gave a great guffaw and laughed sardonically and said, Ye gods! here we have the well-known irony of Socrates, and I knew it and predicted that when it came to replying you would refuse and dissemble and do anything rather than answer any question that anyone asked you. That’s because you are wise, Thrasymachus, and so you knew very well that if you asked a man how many are twelve, and in putting the question warned him: don’t you be telling me, fellow, that twelve is twice six or three times four or six times two or four times three, for I won’t accept any such drivel as that from you as an answer—it was obvious I fancy to you that no one could give an answer to a question framed in that fashion. Suppose he had said to you, Thrasymachus, what do you mean? Am I not to give any of the prohibited answers, not even, do you mean to say, if the thing really is one of these, but must I say something different from the truth, or what do you mean? What would have been your answer to him? Humph! said he, how very like the two cases are! There is nothing to prevent, said I; yet even granted that they are not alike, yet if it appears to the person asked the question that they are alike, do you suppose that he will any the less answer what appears to him, whether we forbid him or whether we don’t? Is that, then, said he, what you are going to do? Are you going to give one of the forbidden answers? I shouldn’t be surprised, I said, if on reflection that would be my view. What then, he said, if I show you another answer about justice differing from all these, a better one—what penalty do you think you deserve? Why, what else, said I, than that which it befits anyone who is ignorant to suffer? It befits him, I presume, to learn from the one who does know. That then is what I propose that I should suffer. I like your simplicity, said he; but in addition to learningyou must pay a fine of money. Well, I will when I have got it, I said. It is there, said Glaucon: if money is all that stands in the way, Thrasymachus, go on with your speech. We will all contribute for Socrates. Oh yes, of course, said he, so that Socrates may contrive, as he always does, to evade answering himself but may cross-examine the other man and refute his replies.
337e Πάνυ γε οἶμαι, δ' ὅς· ἵνα Σωκράτης τὸ εἰωθὸς διαπράξηται·
αὐτὸς μὲν μὴ ἀποκρίνηται, ἄλλου δ' ἀποκρινομένου
λαμβάνῃ λόγον καὶ ἐλέγχῃ.
Πῶς γὰρ ἄν, ἔφην ἐγώ, βέλτιστε, τὶς ἀποκρίναιτο
πρῶτον μὲν μὴ εἰδὼς μηδὲ φάσκων εἰδέναι, ἔπειτα, εἴ τι
καὶ οἴεται, περὶ τούτων ἀπειρημένον αὐτῷ εἴη ὅπως μηδὲν
ἐρεῖ ὧν ἡγεῖται ὑπ' ἀνδρὸς οὐ φαύλου; ἀλλὰ σὲ δὴ μᾶλλον

Why, how, I said, my dear fellow, could anybody answer if in the first place he did not know and did not even profess to know, and secondly even if he had some notion of the matter, he had been told by a man of weight that he mustn’t give any of his suppositions as an answer? Nay, it is more reasonable that you should be the speaker. For you do affirm that you know and are able to tell. Don’t be obstinate, but do me the favor to reply and don’t be chary of your wisdom, and instruct Glaucon here and the rest of us.

338a εἰκὸς λέγειν· σὺ γὰρ δὴ φῂς εἰδέναι καὶ ἔχειν εἰπεῖν. μὴ
οὖν ἄλλως ποίει, ἀλλὰ ἐμοί τε χαρίζου ἀποκρινόμενος καὶ
μὴ φθονήσῃς καὶ Γλαύκωνα τόνδε διδάξαι καὶ τοὺς ἄλλους.
Εἰπόντος δέ μου ταῦτα, τε Γλαύκων καὶ οἱ ἄλλοι
ἐδέοντο αὐτοῦ μὴ ἄλλως ποιεῖν. καὶ Θρασύμαχος φανερὸς
μὲν ἦν ἐπιθυμῶν εἰπεῖν ἵν' εὐδοκιμήσειεν, ἡγούμενος ἔχειν
ἀπόκρισιν παγκάλην· προσεποιεῖτο δὲ φιλονικεῖν πρὸς τὸ
ἐμὲ εἶναι τὸν ἀποκρινόμενον. τελευτῶν δὲ συνεχώρησεν,
338b κἄπειτα, Αὕτη δή, ἔφη, Σωκράτους σοφία· αὐτὸν μὲν μὴ
ἐθέλειν διδάσκειν, παρὰ δὲ τῶν ἄλλων περιιόντα μανθάνειν
καὶ τούτων μηδὲ χάριν ἀποδιδόναι.
Ὅτι μέν, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, μανθάνω παρὰ τῶν ἄλλων, ἀληθῆ
εἶπες, Θρασύμαχε, ὅτι δὲ οὔ με φῂς χάριν ἐκτίνειν,
ψεύδῃ· ἐκτίνω γὰρ ὅσην δύναμαι. δύναμαι δὲ ἐπαινεῖν
μόνον· χρήματα γὰρ οὐκ ἔχω. ὡς δὲ προθύμως τοῦτο δρῶ,
ἐάν τίς μοι δοκῇ εὖ λέγειν, εὖ εἴσῃ αὐτίκα δὴ μάλα, ἐπειδὰν
ἀποκρίνῃ· οἶμαι γάρ σε εὖ ἐρεῖν.
338c Ἄκουε δή, δ' ὅς. φημὶ γὰρ ἐγὼ εἶναι τὸ δίκαιον
οὐκ ἄλλο τι τὸ τοῦ κρείττονος συμφέρον. ἀλλὰ τί οὐκ
ἐπαινεῖς; ἀλλ' οὐκ ἐθελήσεις.
Ἐὰν μάθω γε πρῶτον, ἔφην, τί λέγεις· νῦν γὰρ οὔπω
οἶδα. τὸ τοῦ κρείττονος φῂς συμφέρον δίκαιον εἶναι. καὶ
τοῦτο, Θρασύμαχε, τί ποτε λέγεις; οὐ γάρ που τό γε
τοιόνδε φῄς· εἰ Πουλυδάμας ἡμῶν κρείττων παγκρατιαστὴς
καὶ αὐτῷ συμφέρει τὰ βόεια κρέα πρὸς τὸ σῶμα, τοῦτο τὸ
338d σιτίον εἶναι καὶ ἡμῖν τοῖς ἥττοσιν ἐκείνου συμφέρον ἅμα
καὶ δίκαιον.
Βδελυρὸς γὰρ εἶ, ἔφη, Σώκρατες, καὶ ταύτῃ ὑπολαμβάνεις
ἂν κακουργήσαις μάλιστα τὸν λόγον.
Οὐδαμῶς, ἄριστε, ἦν δ' ἐγώ· ἀλλὰ σαφέστερον εἰπὲ
τί λέγεις.
Εἶτ' οὐκ οἶσθ', ἔφη, ὅτι τῶν πόλεων αἱ μὲν τυραννοῦνται,
αἱ δὲ δημοκρατοῦνται, αἱ δὲ ἀριστοκρατοῦνται;
Πῶς γὰρ οὔ;
Οὐκοῦν τοῦτο κρατεῖ ἐν ἑκάστῃ πόλει, τὸ ἄρχον;
Πάνυ γε.
338e Τίθεται δέ γε τοὺς νόμους ἑκάστη ἀρχὴ πρὸς τὸ αὑτῇ
συμφέρον, δημοκρατία μὲν δημοκρατικούς, τυραννὶς δὲ
τυραννικούς, καὶ αἱ ἄλλαι οὕτως· θέμεναι δὲ ἀπέφηναν τοῦτο
δίκαιον τοῖς ἀρχομένοις εἶναι, τὸ σφίσι συμφέρον, καὶ τὸν
τούτου ἐκβαίνοντα κολάζουσιν ὡς παρανομοῦντά τε καὶ
ἀδικοῦντα. τοῦτ' οὖν ἐστιν, βέλτιστε, λέγω ἐν ἁπάσαις
When I had spoken thus Glaucon and the others urged him not to be obstinate. It was quite plain that Thrasymachus was eager to speak in order that he might do himself credit, since he believed that he had a most excellent answer to our question. But he demurred and pretended to make a point of my being the respondent. Finally he gave way and then said, Here you have the wisdom of Socrates, to refuse himself to teach, but go about and learn from others and not even pay thanks therefor. That I learn from others, I said, you said truly, Thrasymachus. But in saying that I do not pay thanks you are mistaken. I pay as much as I am able. And I am able only to bestow praise. For money I lack. But that I praise right willingly those who appear to speak well you will well know forthwith as soon as you have given your answer. For I think that you will speak well. Hearken and hear then, said he. I affirm that the just is nothing else than the advantage of the stronger. Well, why don’t you applaud? Nay, you’ll do anything but that. Provided only I first understand your meaning, said I; for I don’t yet apprehend it. The advantage of the stronger is what you affirm the just to be. But what in the world do you mean by this? I presume you don’t intend to affirm this, that if Polydamas the pancratiast is stronger than we are and the flesh of beeves is advantageous for him, for his body, this viand is also for us who are weaker than he both advantageous and just. You’re a buffoon, Socrates, and take my statement in the most detrimental sense. Not at all, my dear fellow said I; I only want you to make your meaning plainer. Don’t you know then, said he, that some cities are governed by tyrants, in others democracy rules, in others aristocracy? Assuredly. And is not this the thing that is strong and has the mastery in each—the ruling party? Certainly. And each form of government enacts the laws with a view to its own advantage, a democracy democratic laws and tyranny autocratic and the others likewise, and by so legislating they proclaim that the just for their subjects is that which is for their—the rulers’—advantage and the man who deviates from this law they chastise as a law-breaker and a wrongdoer.
339a ταῖς πόλεσιν ταὐτὸν εἶναι δίκαιον, τὸ τῆς καθεστηκυίας ἀρχῆς
συμφέρον· αὕτη δέ που κρατεῖ, ὥστε συμβαίνει τῷ ὀρθῶς
λογιζομένῳ πανταχοῦ εἶναι τὸ αὐτὸ δίκαιον, τὸ τοῦ κρείττονος
συμφέρον.
Νῦν, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, ἔμαθον λέγεις· εἰ δὲ ἀληθὲς μή,
πειράσομαι μαθεῖν. τὸ συμφέρον μὲν οὖν, Θρασύμαχε,
καὶ σὺ ἀπεκρίνω δίκαιον εἶναικαίτοι ἔμοιγε ἀπηγόρευες
ὅπως μὴ τοῦτο ἀποκρινοίμηνπρόσεστιν δὲ δὴ αὐτόθι τὸ
"τοῦ κρείττονος."
339b Σμικρά γε ἴσως, ἔφη, προσθήκη.
Οὔπω δῆλον οὐδ' εἰ μεγάλη· ἀλλ' ὅτι μὲν τοῦτο σκεπτέον
εἰ ἀληθῆ λέγεις, δῆλον. ἐπειδὴ γὰρ συμφέρον γέ τι εἶναι
καὶ ἐγὼ ὁμολογῶ τὸ δίκαιον, σὺ δὲ προστιθεῖς καὶ αὐτὸ φῂς
εἶναι τὸ τοῦ κρείττονος, ἐγὼ δὲ ἀγνοῶ, σκεπτέον δή.
Σκόπει, ἔφη.
Ταῦτ' ἔσται, ἦν δ' ἐγώ. καί μοι εἰπέ· οὐ καὶ πείθεσθαι
μέντοι τοῖς ἄρχουσιν δίκαιον φῂς εἶναι;
Ἔγωγε.

This, then, my good sir, is what I understand as the identical principle of justice that obtains in all states —the advantage of the established government. This I presume you will admit holds power and is strong, so that, if one reasons rightly, it works out that the just is the same thing everywhere, the advantage of the stronger. Now, said I, I have learned your meaning, but whether it is true or not I have to try to learn. The advantageous, then, is also your reply, Thrasymachus, to the question, what is the just—though you forbade me to give that answer. But you add thereto that of the stronger. A trifling addition perhaps you think it, he said. It is not yet clear whether it is a big one either; but that we must inquire whether what you say is true, is clear. For since I too admit that the just is something that is of advantage—but you are for making an addition and affirm it to be the advantage of the stronger, while I don’t profess to know, we must pursue the inquiry. Inquire away, he said.

339c Πότερον δὲ ἀναμάρτητοί εἰσιν οἱ ἄρχοντες ἐν ταῖς πόλεσιν
ἑκάσταις οἷοί τι καὶ ἁμαρτεῖν;
Πάντως που, ἔφη, οἷοί τι καὶ ἁμαρτεῖν.
Οὐκοῦν ἐπιχειροῦντες νόμους τιθέναι τοὺς μὲν ὀρθῶς
τιθέασιν, τοὺς δέ τινας οὐκ ὀρθῶς;
Οἶμαι ἔγωγε.
Τὸ δὲ ὀρθῶς ἆρα τὸ τὰ συμφέροντά ἐστι τίθεσθαι ἑαυτοῖς,
τὸ δὲ μὴ ὀρθῶς ἀσύμφορα; πῶς λέγεις;
Οὕτως.
δ' ἂν θῶνται ποιητέον τοῖς ἀρχομένοις, καὶ τοῦτό
ἐστι τὸ δίκαιον;
Πῶς γὰρ οὔ;
339d Οὐ μόνον ἄρα δίκαιόν ἐστιν κατὰ τὸν σὸν λόγον τὸ τοῦ
κρείττονος συμφέρον ποιεῖν ἀλλὰ καὶ τοὐναντίον, τὸ μὴ
συμφέρον.
Τί λέγεις σύ; ἔφη.
σὺ λέγεις, ἔμοιγε δοκῶ· σκοπῶμεν δὲ βέλτιον. οὐχ
ὡμολόγηται τοὺς ἄρχοντας τοῖς ἀρχομένοις προστάττοντας
ποιεῖν ἄττα ἐνίοτε διαμαρτάνειν τοῦ ἑαυτοῖς βελτίστου,
δ' ἂν προστάττωσιν οἱ ἄρχοντες δίκαιον εἶναι τοῖς ἀρχομένοις
ποιεῖν; ταῦτ' οὐχ ὡμολόγηται;
Οἶμαι ἔγωγε, ἔφη.
339e Οἴου τοίνυν, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, καὶ τὸ ἀσύμφορα ποιεῖν τοῖς
ἄρχουσί τε καὶ κρείττοσι δίκαιον εἶναι ὡμολογῆσθαί σοι,
ὅταν οἱ μὲν ἄρχοντες ἄκοντες κακὰ αὑτοῖς προστάττωσιν,
τοῖς δὲ δίκαιον εἶναι φῇς ταῦτα ποιεῖν ἐκεῖνοι προσέταξαν
ἆρα τότε, σοφώτατε Θρασύμαχε, οὐκ ἀναγκαῖον συμβαίνειν
αὐτὸ οὑτωσί, δίκαιον εἶναι ποιεῖν τοὐναντίον σὺ
λέγεις; τὸ γὰρ τοῦ κρείττονος ἀσύμφορον δήπου προστάττεται
τοῖς ἥττοσιν ποιεῖν.
I will do so, said I. Tell me, then; you affirm also, do you not, that obedience to rulers is just? I do. May I ask whether the rulers in the various states are infallible or capable sometimes of error? Surely, he said, they are liable to err. Then in their attempts at legislation they enact some laws rightly and some not rightly, do they not? So I suppose. And by rightly we are to understand for their advantage, and by wrongly to their disadvantage? Do you mean that or not? That. But whatever they enact must be performed by their subjects and is justice? Of course. Then on your theory it is just not only to do what is the advantage of the stronger but also the opposite, what is not to his advantage. What’s that you’re saying? he replied. What you yourself are saying, I think. Let us consider it more closely. Have we not agreed that the rulers in giving orders to the ruled sometimes mistake their own advantage, and that whatever the rulers enjoin is just for the subjects to perform? Was not that admitted? I think it was, he replied. Then you will have to think, I said, that to do what is disadvantageous to the rulers and the stronger has been admitted by you to be just in the case when the rulers unwittingly enjoin what is bad for themselves, while you affirm that it is just for the others to do what they enjoined. In that way does not this conclusion inevitably follow, my most sapient Thrasymachus, that it is just to do the very opposite of what you say? For it is in that case surely the disadvantage of the stronger or superior that the inferior are commanded to perform.
340a Ναὶ μὰ Δί', ἔφη, Σώκρατες, Πολέμαρχος, σαφέστατά
γε.
Ἐὰν σύ γ', ἔφη, αὐτῷ μαρτυρήσῃς, Κλειτοφῶν ὑπολαβών.
Καὶ τί, ἔφη, δεῖται μάρτυρος; αὐτὸς γὰρ Θρασύμαχος
ὁμολογεῖ τοὺς μὲν ἄρχοντας ἐνίοτε ἑαυτοῖς κακὰ προστάττειν,
τοῖς δὲ δίκαιον εἶναι ταῦτα ποιεῖν.
Τὸ γὰρ τὰ κελευόμενα ποιεῖν, Πολέμαρχε, ὑπὸ τῶν
ἀρχόντων δίκαιον εἶναι ἔθετο Θρασύμαχος.
Καὶ γὰρ τὸ τοῦ κρείττονος, Κλειτοφῶν, συμφέρον
340b δίκαιον εἶναι ἔθετο. ταῦτα δὲ ἀμφότερα θέμενος ὡμολόγησεν
αὖ ἐνίοτε τοὺς κρείττους τὰ αὑτοῖς ἀσύμφορα κελεύειν
τοὺς ἥττους τε καὶ ἀρχομένους ποιεῖν. ἐκ δὲ τούτων τῶν
ὁμολογιῶν οὐδὲν μᾶλλον τὸ τοῦ κρείττονος συμφέρον δίκαιον
ἂν εἴη τὸ μὴ συμφέρον.
Ἀλλ', ἔφη Κλειτοφῶν, τὸ τοῦ κρείττονος συμφέρον
ἔλεγεν ἡγοῖτο κρείττων αὑτῷ συμφέρειν· τοῦτο ποιητέον
εἶναι τῷ ἥττονι, καὶ τὸ δίκαιον τοῦτο ἐτίθετο.
Ἀλλ' οὐχ οὕτως, δ' ὃς Πολέμαρχος, ἐλέγετο.

Yes, by Zeus, Socrates, said Polemarchus, nothing could be more conclusive. Of course, said Cleitophon, breaking in, if you are his witness. What need is there of a witness? Polemarchus said. Thrasymachus himself admits that the rulers sometimes enjoin what is evil for themselves and yet says that it is just for the subjects to do this. That, Polemarchus, is because Thrasymachus laid it down that it is just to obey the orders of the rulers. Yes, Cleitophon, but he also took the position that the advantage of the stronger is just. And after these two assumptions he again admitted that the stronger sometimes bid the inferior and their subjects do what is to the disadvantage of the rulers. And from these admissions the just would no more be the advantage of the stronger than the contrary. O well, said Cleitophon, by the advantage of the superior he meant what the superior supposed to be for his advantage. This was what the inferior had to do, and that this is the just was his position. That isn’t what he said, replied Polemarchus. Never mind, Polemarchus, said I, but if that is Thrasymachus’s present meaning, let us take it from him in that sense.

340c Οὐδέν, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, Πολέμαρχε, διαφέρει, ἀλλ' εἰ νῦν
οὕτω λέγει Θρασύμαχος, οὕτως αὐτοῦ ἀποδεχώμεθα. Καί
μοι εἰπέ, Θρασύμαχε· τοῦτο ἦν ἐβούλου λέγειν τὸ δίκαιον,
τὸ τοῦ κρείττονος συμφέρον δοκοῦν εἶναι τῷ κρείττονι, ἐάντε
συμφέρῃ ἐάντε μή; οὕτω σε φῶμεν λέγειν;
Ἥκιστά γε, ἔφη· ἀλλὰ κρείττω με οἴει καλεῖν τὸν ἐξαμαρτάνοντα
ὅταν ἐξαμαρτάνῃ;
Ἔγωγε, εἶπον, ᾤμην σε τοῦτο λέγειν ὅτε τοὺς ἄρχοντας
ὡμολόγεις οὐκ ἀναμαρτήτους εἶναι ἀλλά τι καὶ ἐξαμαρτάνειν.
340d Συκοφάντης γὰρ εἶ, ἔφη, Σώκρατες, ἐν τοῖς λόγοις·
ἐπεὶ αὐτίκα ἰατρὸν καλεῖς σὺ τὸν ἐξαμαρτάνοντα περὶ τοὺς
κάμνοντας κατ' αὐτὸ τοῦτο ἐξαμαρτάνει; λογιστικόν, ὃς
ἂν ἐν λογισμῷ ἁμαρτάνῃ, τότε ὅταν ἁμαρτάνῃ, κατὰ ταύτην
τὴν ἁμαρτίαν; ἀλλ' οἶμαι λέγομεν τῷ ῥήματι οὕτως, ὅτι
ἰατρὸς ἐξήμαρτεν καὶ λογιστὴς ἐξήμαρτεν καὶ γραμματιστής·
τὸ δ' οἶμαι ἕκαστος τούτων, καθ' ὅσον τοῦτ' ἔστιν
So tell me, Thrasymachus, was this what you intended to say, that the just is the advantage of the superior as it appears to the superior whether it really is or not? Are we to say this was your meaning? Not in the least, he said. Do you suppose that I call one who is in error a superior when he errs? I certainly did suppose that you meant that, I replied, when you agreed that rulers are not infallible but sometimes make mistakes. That is because you argue like a pettifogger, Socrates. Why, to take the nearest example, do you call one who is mistaken about the sick a physician in respect of his mistake or one who goes wrong in a calculation a calculator when he goes wrong and in respect of this error? Yet that is what we say literally—we say that the physician erred and the calculator and the schoolmaster. But the truth, I take it, is, that each of these in so far as he is that which we entitle him never errs; so that, speaking precisely, since you are such a stickler for precision, no craftsman errs. For it is when his knowledge abandons him that he who goes wrong goes wrong—when he is not a craftsman. So that no craftsman, wise man, or ruler makes a mistake then when he is a ruler, though everybody would use the expression that the physician made a mistake and the ruler erred.
340e προσαγορεύομεν αὐτόν, οὐδέποτε ἁμαρτάνει· ὥστε κατὰ
τὸν ἀκριβῆ λόγον, ἐπειδὴ καὶ σὺ ἀκριβολογῇ, οὐδεὶς τῶν
δημιουργῶν ἁμαρτάνει. ἐπιλειπούσης γὰρ ἐπιστήμης ἁμαρτάνων
ἁμαρτάνει, ἐν οὐκ ἔστι δημιουργός· ὥστε δημιουργὸς
σοφὸς ἄρχων οὐδεὶς ἁμαρτάνει τότε ὅταν ἄρχων , ἀλλὰ
πᾶς γ' ἂν εἴποι ὅτι ἰατρὸς ἥμαρτεν καὶ ἄρχων ἥμαρτεν.
τοιοῦτον οὖν δή σοι καὶ ἐμὲ ὑπόλαβε νυνδὴ ἀποκρίνεσθαι·
τὸ δὲ ἀκριβέστατον ἐκεῖνο τυγχάνει ὄν, τὸν ἄρχοντα, καθ'

It is in this loose way of speaking, then, that you must take the answer I gave you a little while ago. But the most precise statement is that other, that the ruler in so far forth as ruler does not err, and not erring he enacts what is best for himself, and this the subject must do, so that, even as I meant from the start, I say the just is to do what is for the advantage of the stronger.

341a ὅσον ἄρχων ἐστίν, μὴ ἁμαρτάνειν, μὴ ἁμαρτάνοντα δὲ τὸ
αὑτῷ βέλτιστον τίθεσθαι, τοῦτο δὲ τῷ ἀρχομένῳ ποιητέον.
ὥστε ὅπερ ἐξ ἀρχῆς ἔλεγον δίκαιον λέγω, τὸ τοῦ κρείττονος
ποιεῖν συμφέρον.
Εἶεν, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, Θρασύμαχε· δοκῶ σοι συκοφαντεῖν;
Πάνυ μὲν οὖν, ἔφη.
Οἴει γάρ με ἐξ ἐπιβουλῆς ἐν τοῖς λόγοις κακουργοῦντά σε
ἐρέσθαι ὡς ἠρόμην;
Εὖ μὲν οὖν οἶδα, ἔφη. καὶ οὐδέν γέ σοι πλέον ἔσται·
341b οὔτε γὰρ ἄν με λάθοις κακουργῶν, οὔτε μὴ λαθὼν βιάσασθαι
τῷ λόγῳ δύναιο.
Οὐδέ γ' ἂν ἐπιχειρήσαιμι, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, μακάριε. ἀλλ'
ἵνα μὴ αὖθις ἡμῖν τοιοῦτον ἐγγένηται, διόρισαι ποτέρως
λέγεις τὸν ἄρχοντά τε καὶ τὸν κρείττονα, τὸν ὡς ἔπος εἰπεῖν
τὸν ἀκριβεῖ λόγῳ, νυνδὴ ἔλεγες, οὗ τὸ συμφέρον κρείττονος
ὄντος δίκαιον ἔσται τῷ ἥττονι ποιεῖν.
Τὸν τῷ ἀκριβεστάτῳ, ἔφη, λόγῳ ἄρχοντα ὄντα. πρὸς
ταῦτα κακούργει καὶ συκοφάντει, εἴ τι δύνασαιοὐδέν σου
παρίεμαιἀλλ' οὐ μὴ οἷός τ' ᾖς.
341c Οἴει γὰρ ἄν με, εἶπον, οὕτω μανῆναι ὥστε ξυρεῖν ἐπιχειρεῖν
λέοντα καὶ συκοφαντεῖν Θρασύμαχον;
Νῦν γοῦν, ἔφη, ἐπεχείρησας, οὐδὲν ὢν καὶ ταῦτα.
Ἅδην, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, τῶν τοιούτων. ἀλλ' εἰπέ μοι· τῷ
ἀκριβεῖ λόγῳ ἰατρός, ὃν ἄρτι ἔλεγες, πότερον χρηματιστής
ἐστιν τῶν καμνόντων θεραπευτής; καὶ λέγε τὸν τῷ ὄντι
ἰατρὸν ὄντα.
Τῶν καμνόντων, ἔφη, θεραπευτής.
Τί δὲ κυβερνήτης; ὀρθῶς κυβερνήτης ναυτῶν ἄρχων
ἐστὶν ναύτης;
Ναυτῶν ἄρχων.
341d Οὐδὲν οἶμαι τοῦτο ὑπολογιστέον, ὅτι πλεῖ ἐν τῇ νηί, οὐδ'
ἐστὶν κλητέος ναύτης· οὐ γὰρ κατὰ τὸ πλεῖν κυβερνήτης
καλεῖται, ἀλλὰ κατὰ τὴν τέχνην καὶ τὴν τῶν ναυτῶν ἀρχήν.
Ἀληθῆ, ἔφη.
Οὐκοῦν ἑκάστῳ τούτων ἔστιν τι συμφέρον;
Πάνυ γε.
Οὐ καὶ τέχνη, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, ἐπὶ τούτῳ πέφυκεν, ἐπὶ τῷ τὸ
συμφέρον ἑκάστῳ ζητεῖν τε καὶ ἐκπορίζειν;
Ἐπὶ τούτῳ, ἔφη.
Ἆρ' οὖν καὶ ἑκάστῃ τῶν τεχνῶν ἔστιν τι συμφέρον ἄλλο
ὅτι μάλιστα τελέαν εἶναι;
341e Πῶς τοῦτο ἐρωτᾷς;
Ὥσπερ, ἔφην ἐγώ, εἴ με ἔροιο εἰ ἐξαρκεῖ σώματι εἶναι
σώματι προσδεῖταί τινος, εἴποιμ' ἂν ὅτι "Παντάπασι μὲν
οὖν προσδεῖται. διὰ ταῦτα καὶ τέχνη ἐστὶν ἰατρικὴ
νῦν ηὑρημένη, ὅτι σῶμά ἐστιν πονηρὸν καὶ οὐκ ἐξαρκεῖ αὐτῷ
τοιούτῳ εἶναι. τούτῳ οὖν ὅπως ἐκπορίζῃ τὰ συμφέροντα,
ἐπὶ τούτῳ παρεσκευάσθη τέχνη." ὀρθῶς σοι δοκῶ, ἔφην,
ἂν εἰπεῖν οὕτω λέγων, οὔ;
Ὀρθῶς, ἔφη.
So then, Thrasymachus, said I, my manner of argument seems to you pettifogging? It does, he said. You think, do you, that it was with malice aforethought and trying to get the better of you unfairly that I asked that question? I don’t think it, I know it, he said, and you won’t make anything by it, for you won’t get the better of me by stealth and , failing stealth, you are not of the force to beat me in debate. Bless your soul, said I, I wouldn’t even attempt such a thing. But that nothing of the sort may spring up between us again, define in which sense you take the ruler and stronger. Do you mean the so-called ruler or that ruler in the precise sense of whom you were just now telling us, and for whose advantage as being the superior it will be just for the inferior to act? I mean the ruler in the very most precise sense of the word, he said. Now bring on against this your cavils and your shyster’s tricks if you are able. I ask no quarter. But you’ll find yourself unable. Why, do you suppose, I said, that I am so mad to try to try to beard a lion and try the pettifogger on Thrasymachus? You did try it just now, he said, paltry fellow though you be. Something too much of this sort of thing, said I. But tell me, your physician in the precise sense of whom you were just now speaking, is he a moneymaker, an earner of fees, or a healer of the sick? And remember to speak of the physician who is really such. A healer of the sick, he replied. And what of the lot—the pilot rightly so called—is he a ruler of sailors or a sailor? A ruler of sailors. We don’t, I fancy, have to take into account the fact that he actually sails in the ship, nor is he to be denominated a sailor. For it is not in respect of his sailing that he is called a pilot but in respect of his art and his ruling of the sailors. True, he said. Then for each of them is there not a something that is for his advantage? Quite so. And is it not also true, said I, that the art naturally exists for this, to discover and provide for each his advantage? Yes, for this. Is there, then, for each of the arts any other advantage than to be perfect as possible? What do you mean by that question? Just as if, I said, you should ask me whether it is enough for the body to be the body or whether it stands in need of something else, I would reply, By all means it stands in need. That is the reason why the art of medicine has now been invented, because the body is defective and such defect is unsatisfactory. To provide for this, then, what is advantageous, that is the end for which the art was devised. Do you think that would be a correct answer, or not?
342a Τί δὲ δή; αὐτὴ ἰατρική ἐστιν πονηρά, ἄλλη τις τέχνη
ἔσθ' ὅτι προσδεῖταί τινος ἀρετῆςὥσπερ ὀφθαλμοὶ ὄψεως καὶ
ὦτα ἀκοῆς καὶ διὰ ταῦτα ἐπ' αὐτοῖς δεῖ τινος τέχνης τῆς τὸ
συμφέρον εἰς αὐτὰ ταῦτα σκεψομένης τε καὶ ἐκποριούσης
ἆρα καὶ ἐν αὐτῇ τῇ τέχνῃ ἔνι τις πονηρία, καὶ δεῖ ἑκάστῃ
τέχνῃ ἄλλης τέχνης ἥτις αὐτῇ τὸ συμφέρον σκέψεται, καὶ
τῇ σκοπουμένῃ ἑτέρας αὖ τοιαύτης, καὶ τοῦτ' ἔστιν ἀπέραντον;
342b αὐτὴ αὑτῇ τὸ συμφέρον σκέψεται; οὔτε αὑτῆς οὔτε ἄλλης
προσδεῖται ἐπὶ τὴν αὑτῆς πονηρίαν τὸ συμφέρον σκοπεῖν·
οὔτε γὰρ πονηρία οὔτε ἁμαρτία οὐδεμία οὐδεμιᾷ τέχνῃ
πάρεστιν, οὐδὲ προσήκει τέχνῃ ἄλλῳ τὸ συμφέρον ζητεῖν
ἐκείνῳ οὗ τέχνη ἐστίν, αὐτὴ δὲ ἀβλαβὴς καὶ ἀκέραιός ἐστιν
ὀρθὴ οὖσα, ἕωσπερ ἂν ἑκάστη ἀκριβὴς ὅλη ἥπερ ἐστίν;
καὶ σκόπει ἐκείνῳ τῷ ἀκριβεῖ λόγῳ· οὕτως ἄλλως ἔχει;
Οὕτως, ἔφη, φαίνεται.
342c Οὐκ ἄρα, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, ἰατρικὴ ἰατρικῇ τὸ συμφέρον σκοπεῖ
ἀλλὰ σώματι.
Ναί, ἔφη.
Οὐδὲ ἱππικὴ ἱππικῇ ἀλλ' ἵπποις· οὐδὲ ἄλλη τέχνη
οὐδεμία ἑαυτῇοὐδὲ γὰρ προσδεῖταιἀλλ' ἐκείνῳ οὗ τέχνη
ἐστίν.
Φαίνεται, ἔφη, οὕτως.
Ἀλλὰ μήν, Θρασύμαχε, ἄρχουσί γε αἱ τέχναι καὶ
κρατοῦσιν ἐκείνου οὗπέρ εἰσιν τέχναι.
Συνεχώρησεν ἐνταῦθα καὶ μάλα μόγις.
Οὐκ ἄρα ἐπιστήμη γε οὐδεμία τὸ τοῦ κρείττονος συμφέρον
σκοπεῖ οὐδ' ἐπιτάττει, ἀλλὰ τὸ τοῦ ἥττονός τε καὶ ἀρχομένου
342d ὑπὸ ἑαυτῆς.
Συνωμολόγησε μὲν καὶ ταῦτα τελευτῶν, ἐπεχείρει δὲ περὶ
αὐτὰ μάχεσθαι· ἐπειδὴ δὲ ὡμολόγησεν, Ἄλλο τι οὖν, ἦν δ'
ἐγώ, οὐδὲ ἰατρὸς οὐδείς, καθ' ὅσον ἰατρός, τὸ τῷ ἰατρῷ
συμφέρον σκοπεῖ οὐδ' ἐπιτάττει, ἀλλὰ τὸ τῷ κάμνοντι;
ὡμολόγηται γὰρ ἀκριβὴς ἰατρὸς σωμάτων εἶναι ἄρχων
ἀλλ' οὐ χρηματιστής. οὐχ ὡμολόγηται;
Συνέφη.
Οὐκοῦν καὶ κυβερνήτης ἀκριβὴς ναυτῶν εἶναι ἄρχων
ἀλλ' οὐ ναύτης;
342e Ὡμολόγηται.
Οὐκ ἄρα γε τοιοῦτος κυβερνήτης τε καὶ ἄρχων τὸ τῷ
κυβερνήτῃ συμφέρον σκέψεταί τε καὶ προστάξει, ἀλλὰ τὸ
τῷ ναύτῃ τε καὶ ἀρχομένῳ.
Συνέφησε μόγις.
Οὐκοῦν, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, Θρασύμαχε, οὐδὲ ἄλλος οὐδεὶς ἐν
οὐδεμιᾷ ἀρχῇ, καθ' ὅσον ἄρχων ἐστίν, τὸ αὑτῷ συμφέρον
σκοπεῖ οὐδ' ἐπιτάττει, ἀλλὰ τὸ τῷ ἀρχομένῳ καὶ ἂν
αὐτὸς δημιουργῇ, καὶ πρὸς ἐκεῖνο βλέπων καὶ τὸ ἐκείνῳ
συμφέρον καὶ πρέπον, καὶ λέγει λέγει καὶ ποιεῖ ποιεῖ
ἅπαντα.
Correct, he said. But how about this? Is the medical art itself defective or faulty, or has any other art any need of some virtue, quality, or excellence—as the eyes of vision, the ears of hearing, and for this reason is there need of some art over them that will consider and provide what is advantageous for these very ends—does there exist in the art itself some defect and does each art require another art to consider its advantage and is there need of still another for the considering art and so on ad infinitum, or will the art look out for its own advantage? Or is it a fact that it needs neither itself nor another art to consider its advantage and provide against its deficiency? For there is no defect or error at all that dwells in any art. Nor does it befit an art to seek the advantage of anything else than that of its object. But the art itself is free from all harm and admixture of evil, and is right so long as each art is precisely and entirely that which it is. And consider the matter in that precise way of speaking. Is it so or not? It appears to be so, he said. Then medicine, said I, does not consider the advantage of medicine but of the body? Yes. Nor horsemanship of horsemanship but of horses, nor does any other art look out for itself—for it has no need—but for that of which it is the art. So it seems, he replied. But surely, Thrasymachus, the arts do hold rule and are stronger than that of which they are the arts. He conceded this but it went very hard. Then no art considers or enjoins the advantage of the stronger but every art that of the weaker which is ruled by it. This too he was finally brought to admit though he tried to contest it. But when he had agreed—Can we deny, then, said I, that neither does any physician in so far as he is a physician seek or enjoin the advantage of the physician but that of the patient? For we have agreed that the physician, precisely speaking, is a ruler and governor of bodies and not a moneymaker. Did we agree on that? He assented. And so the precise pilot is a ruler of sailors, not a sailor? That was admitted. Then that sort of a pilot and ruler will not consider and enjoin the advantage of the pilot but that of the sailor whose ruler he is. He assented reluctantly. Then, said I, Thrasymachus, neither does anyone in any office of rule in so far as he is a ruler consider and enjoin his own advantage but that of the one whom he rules and for whom he exercises his craft, and he keeps his eyes fixed on that and on what is advantageous and suitable to that in all that he says and does.
343a Ἐπειδὴ οὖν ἐνταῦθα ἦμεν τοῦ λόγου καὶ πᾶσι καταφανὲς
ἦν ὅτι τοῦ δικαίου λόγος εἰς τοὐναντίον περιειστήκει,
Θρασύμαχος ἀντὶ τοῦ ἀποκρίνεσθαι, Εἰπέ μοι, ἔφη,
Σώκρατες, τίτθη σοι ἔστιν;
Τί δέ; ἦν δ' ἐγώ· οὐκ ἀποκρίνεσθαι χρῆν μᾶλλον
τοιαῦτα ἐρωτᾶν;
Ὅτι τοί σε, ἔφη, κορυζῶντα περιορᾷ καὶ οὐκ ἀπομύττει
δεόμενον, ὅς γε αὐτῇ οὐδὲ πρόβατα οὐδὲ ποιμένα
γιγνώσκεις.
Ὅτι δὴ τί μάλιστα; ἦν δ' ἐγώ.
343b Ὅτι οἴει τοὺς ποιμένας τοὺς βουκόλους τὸ τῶν προβάτων
τὸ τῶν βοῶν ἀγαθὸν σκοπεῖν καὶ παχύνειν αὐτοὺς καὶ
θεραπεύειν πρὸς ἄλλο τι βλέποντας τὸ τῶν δεσποτῶν
ἀγαθὸν καὶ τὸ αὑτῶν, καὶ δὴ καὶ τοὺς ἐν ταῖς πόλεσιν
ἄρχοντας, οἳ ὡς ἀληθῶς ἄρχουσιν, ἄλλως πως ἡγῇ διανοεῖσθαι
πρὸς τοὺς ἀρχομένους ὥσπερ ἄν τις πρὸς πρόβατα διατεθείη,
καὶ ἄλλο τι σκοπεῖν αὐτοὺς διὰ νυκτὸς καὶ ἡμέρας τοῦτο,
343c ὅθεν αὐτοὶ ὠφελήσονται. καὶ οὕτω πόρρω εἶ περί τε τοῦ
δικαίου καὶ δικαιοσύνης καὶ ἀδίκου τε καὶ ἀδικίας, ὥστε
ἀγνοεῖς ὅτι μὲν δικαιοσύνη καὶ τὸ δίκαιον ἀλλότριον ἀγαθὸν
τῷ ὄντι, τοῦ κρείττονός τε καὶ ἄρχοντος συμφέρον, οἰκεία δὲ
τοῦ πειθομένου τε καὶ ὑπηρετοῦντος βλάβη, δὲ ἀδικία
τοὐναντίον, καὶ ἄρχει τῶν ὡς ἀληθῶς εὐηθικῶν τε καὶ
δικαίων, οἱ δ' ἀρχόμενοι ποιοῦσιν τὸ ἐκείνου συμφέρον
κρείττονος ὄντος, καὶ εὐδαίμονα ἐκεῖνον ποιοῦσιν ὑπηρετοῦντες
343d αὐτῷ, ἑαυτοὺς δὲ οὐδ' ὁπωστιοῦν. σκοπεῖσθαι δέ,
εὐηθέστατε Σώκρατες, οὑτωσὶ χρή, ὅτι δίκαιος ἀνὴρ ἀδίκου
πανταχοῦ ἔλαττον ἔχει. πρῶτον μὲν ἐν τοῖς πρὸς ἀλλήλους
συμβολαίοις, ὅπου ἂν τοιοῦτος τῷ τοιούτῳ κοινωνήσῃ,
οὐδαμοῦ ἂν εὕροις ἐν τῇ διαλύσει τῆς κοινωνίας πλέον
ἔχοντα τὸν δίκαιον τοῦ ἀδίκου ἀλλ' ἔλαττον· ἔπειτα ἐν τοῖς
πρὸς τὴν πόλιν, ὅταν τέ τινες εἰσφοραὶ ὦσιν, μὲν δίκαιος
ἀπὸ τῶν ἴσων πλέον εἰσφέρει, δ' ἔλαττον, ὅταν τε λήψεις,
343e μὲν οὐδέν, δὲ πολλὰ κερδαίνει. καὶ γὰρ ὅταν ἀρχήν
τινα ἄρχῃ ἑκάτερος, τῷ μὲν δικαίῳ ὑπάρχει, καὶ εἰ μηδεμία
ἄλλη ζημία, τά γε οἰκεῖα δι' ἀμέλειαν μοχθηροτέρως ἔχειν,
ἐκ δὲ τοῦ δημοσίου μηδὲν ὠφελεῖσθαι διὰ τὸ δίκαιον εἶναι,
πρὸς δὲ τούτοις ἀπεχθέσθαι τοῖς τε οἰκείοις καὶ τοῖς γνωρίμοις,
ὅταν μηδὲν ἐθέλῃ αὐτοῖς ὑπηρετεῖν παρὰ τὸ δίκαιον·
τῷ δὲ ἀδίκῳ πάντα τούτων τἀναντία ὑπάρχει. λέγω γὰρ
When we had come to this point in the discussion and it was apparent to everybody that his formula of justice had suffered a reversal of form, Thrasymachus, instead of replying, said, Tell me, Socrates, have you got a nurse? What do you mean? said I. Why didn’t you answer me instead of asking such a question? Because, he said, she lets her little snotty run about drivelling and doesn’t wipe your face clean, though you need it badly, if she can’t get you to know the difference between the shepherd and the sheep. And what, pray, makes you think that? said I. Because you think that the shepherds and the neat-herds are considering the good of the sheep and the cattle and fatten and tend them with anything else in view than the good of their masters and themselves; and by the same token you seem to suppose that the rulers in our cities, I mean the real rulers, differ at all in their thoughts of the governed from a man’s attitude towards his sheep or that they think of anything else night and day than the sources of their own profit. And you are so far out concerning the just and justice and the unjust and injustice that you don’t know that justice and the just are literally the other fellow’s good—the advantage of the stronger and the ruler, but a detriment that is all his own of the subject who obeys and serves; while injustice is the contrary and rules those who are simple in every sense of the word and just, and they being thus ruled do what is for his advantage who is the stronger and make him happy in serving him, but themselves by no manner of means. And you must look at the matter, my simple-minded Socrates, in this way: that the just man always comes out at a disadvantage in his relation with the unjust. To begin with, in their business dealings in any joint undertaking of the two you will never find that the just man has the advantage over the unjust at the dissolution of the partnership but that he always has the worst of it. Then again, in their relations with the state, if there are direct taxes or contributions to be paid, the just man contributes more from an equal estate and the other less, and when there is a distribution the one gains much and the other nothing. And so when each holds office, apart from any other loss the just man must count on his own affairs falling into disorder through neglect, while because of his justice makes no profit from the state, and thereto he will displease his friends and his acquaintances by his unwillingness to serve them unjustly. But to the unjust man all the opposite advantages accrue.
344a ὅνπερ νυνδὴ ἔλεγον, τὸν μεγάλα δυνάμενον πλεονεκτεῖν·
τοῦτον οὖν σκόπει, εἴπερ βούλει κρίνειν ὅσῳ μᾶλλον
συμφέρει ἰδίᾳ αὑτῷ ἄδικον εἶναι τὸ δίκαιον. πάντων
δὲ ῥᾷστα μαθήσῃ, ἐὰν ἐπὶ τὴν τελεωτάτην ἀδικίαν ἔλθῃς,
τὸν μὲν ἀδικήσαντα εὐδαιμονέστατον ποιεῖ, τοὺς δὲ ἀδικηθέντας
καὶ ἀδικῆσαι οὐκ ἂν ἐθέλοντας ἀθλιωτάτους. ἔστιν δὲ
τοῦτο τυραννίς, οὐ κατὰ σμικρὸν τἀλλότρια καὶ λάθρᾳ καὶ
βίᾳ ἀφαιρεῖται, καὶ ἱερὰ καὶ ὅσια καὶ ἴδια καὶ δημόσια, ἀλλὰ
344b συλλήβδην· ὧν ἐφ' ἑκάστῳ μέρει ὅταν τις ἀδικήσας μὴ
λάθῃ, ζημιοῦταί τε καὶ ὀνείδη ἔχει τὰ μέγιστακαὶ γὰρ
ἱερόσυλοι καὶ ἀνδραποδισταὶ καὶ τοιχωρύχοι καὶ ἀποστερηταὶ
καὶ κλέπται οἱ κατὰ μέρη ἀδικοῦντες τῶν τοιούτων κακουργημάτων
καλοῦνταιἐπειδὰν δέ τις πρὸς τοῖς τῶν πολιτῶν
χρήμασιν καὶ αὐτοὺς ἀνδραποδισάμενος δουλώσηται, ἀντὶ
τούτων τῶν αἰσχρῶν ὀνομάτων εὐδαίμονες καὶ μακάριοι
344c κέκληνται, οὐ μόνον ὑπὸ τῶν πολιτῶν ἀλλὰ καὶ ὑπὸ τῶν
ἄλλων ὅσοι ἂν πύθωνται αὐτὸν τὴν ὅλην ἀδικίαν ἠδικηκότα·
οὐ γὰρ τὸ ποιεῖν τὰ ἄδικα ἀλλὰ τὸ πάσχειν φοβούμενοι
ὀνειδίζουσιν οἱ ὀνειδίζοντες τὴν ἀδικίαν. οὕτως, Σώκρατες,
καὶ ἰσχυρότερον καὶ ἐλευθεριώτερον καὶ δεσποτικώτερον ἀδικία
δικαιοσύνης ἐστὶν ἱκανῶς γιγνομένη, καὶ ὅπερ ἐξ ἀρχῆς
ἔλεγον, τὸ μὲν τοῦ κρείττονος συμφέρον τὸ δίκαιον τυγχάνει
ὄν, τὸ δ' ἄδικον ἑαυτῷ λυσιτελοῦν τε καὶ συμφέρον.

I mean, of course, the one I was just speaking of, the man who has the ability to overreach on a large scale. Consider this type of man, then, if you wish to judge how much more profitable it is to him personally to be unjust than to be just. And the easiest way of all to understand this matter will be to turn to the most consummate form of injustice which makes the man who has done the wrong most happy and those who are wronged and who would not themselves willingly do wrong most miserable. And this is tyranny, which both by stealth and by force takes away what belongs to others, both sacred and profane, both private and public, not little by little but at one swoop. For each several part of such wrongdoing the malefactor who fails to escape detection is fined and incurs the extreme of contumely; for temple-robbers, kidnappers, burglars, swindlers, and thieves the appellations of those who commit these partial forms of injustice. But when in addition to the property of the citizens men kidnap and enslave the citizens themselves, instead of these opprobrious names they are pronounced happy and blessed not only by their fellow-citizens but by all who hear the story of the man who has committed complete and entire injustice. For it is not the fear of doing but of suffering wrong that calls forth the reproaches of those who revile injustice. Thus, Socrates, injustice on a sufficiently large scale is a stronger, freer, and a more masterful thing than justice, and, as I said in the beginning, it is the advantage of the stronger that is the just, while the unjust is what profits man’s self and is for his advantage.

344d Ταῦτα εἰπὼν Θρασύμαχος ἐν νῷ εἶχεν ἀπιέναι, ὥσπερ
βαλανεὺς ἡμῶν καταντλήσας κατὰ τῶν ὤτων ἁθρόον καὶ
πολὺν τὸν λόγον· οὐ μὴν εἴασάν γε αὐτὸν οἱ παρόντες,
ἀλλ' ἠνάγκασαν ὑπομεῖναί τε καὶ παρασχεῖν τῶν εἰρημένων
λόγον. καὶ δὴ ἔγωγε καὶ αὐτὸς πάνυ ἐδεόμην τε καὶ εἶπον·
δαιμόνιε Θρασύμαχε, οἷον ἐμβαλὼν λόγον ἐν νῷ ἔχεις
ἀπιέναι πρὶν διδάξαι ἱκανῶς μαθεῖν εἴτε οὕτως εἴτε ἄλλως
344e ἔχει; σμικρὸν οἴει ἐπιχειρεῖν πρᾶγμα διορίζεσθαι ὅλου
βίου διαγωγήν, ἂν διαγόμενος ἕκαστος ἡμῶν λυσιτελεστάτην
ζωὴν ζῴη;
Ἐγὼ γὰρ οἶμαι, ἔφη Θρασύμαχος, τουτὶ ἄλλως ἔχειν;
Ἔοικας, ἦν δ' ἐγώἤτοι ἡμῶν γε οὐδὲν κήδεσθαι, οὐδέ
τι φροντίζειν εἴτε χεῖρον εἴτε βέλτιον βιωσόμεθα ἀγνοοῦντες
σὺ φῂς εἰδέναι. ἀλλ', ὠγαθέ, προθυμοῦ καὶ ἡμῖν ἐνδείξασθαιοὔτοι
After this Thrasymachus was minded to depart when like a bathman he had poured his speech in a sudden flood over our ears. But the company would not suffer him and were insistent that he should remain and render an account of what he had said. And I was particularly urgent and said, I am surprised at you, Thrasymachus; after hurling such a doctrine at us, can it be that you propose to depart without staying to teach us properly or learn yourself whether this thing is so or not? Do you think it is a small matter that you are attempting to determine and not the entire conduct of life that for each of us would make living most worth while? Well, do I deny it? said Thrasymachus. You seem to, said I, or else to care nothing for us and so feel no concern whether we are going to live worse or better lives in our ignorance of what you affirm that you know.
345a κακῶς σοι κείσεται ὅτι ἂν ἡμᾶς τοσούσδε
ὄντας εὐεργετήσῃςἐγὼ γὰρ δή σοι λέγω τό γ' ἐμόν, ὅτι
οὐ πείθομαι οὐδ' οἶμαι ἀδικίαν δικαιοσύνης κερδαλεώτερον
εἶναι, οὐδ' ἐὰν ἐᾷ τις αὐτὴν καὶ μὴ διακωλύῃ πράττειν
βούλεται. ἀλλ', ὠγαθέ, ἔστω μὲν ἄδικος, δυνάσθω δὲ
ἀδικεῖν τῷ λανθάνειν τῷ διαμάχεσθαι, ὅμως ἐμέ γε οὐ
πείθει ὡς ἔστι τῆς δικαιοσύνης κερδαλεώτερον. ταῦτ' οὖν
345b καὶ ἕτερος ἴσως τις ἡμῶν πέπονθεν, οὐ μόνος ἐγώ· πεῖσον
οὖν, μακάριε, ἱκανῶς ἡμᾶς ὅτι οὐκ ὀρθῶς βουλευόμεθα
δικαιοσύνην ἀδικίας περὶ πλείονος ποιούμενοι.
Καὶ πῶς, ἔφη, σὲ πείσω; εἰ γὰρ οἷς νυνδὴ ἔλεγον μὴ
πέπεισαι, τί σοι ἔτι ποιήσω; εἰς τὴν ψυχὴν φέρων ἐνθῶ
τὸν λόγον;
Μὰ Δί', ἦν δ' ἐγώ, μὴ σύ γε· ἀλλὰ πρῶτον μέν, ἂν
εἴπῃς, ἔμμενε τούτοις, ἐὰν μετατιθῇ, φανερῶς μετατίθεσο
καὶ ἡμᾶς μὴ ἐξαπάτα. νῦν δὲ ὁρᾷς, Θρασύμαχεἔτι
345c γὰρ τὰ ἔμπροσθεν ἐπισκεψώμεθαὅτι τὸν ὡς ἀληθῶς ἰατρὸν
τὸ πρῶτον ὁριζόμενος τὸν ὡς ἀληθῶς ποιμένα οὐκέτι ᾤου
δεῖν ὕστερον ἀκριβῶς φυλάξαι, ἀλλὰ πιαίνειν οἴει αὐτὸν τὰ
πρόβατα, καθ' ὅσον ποιμήν ἐστιν, οὐ πρὸς τὸ τῶν προβάτων
βέλτιστον βλέποντα ἀλλ', ὥσπερ δαιτυμόνα τινὰ καὶ
μέλλοντα ἑστιάσεσθαι, πρὸς τὴν εὐωχίαν, αὖ πρὸς τὸ
345d ἀποδόσθαι, ὥσπερ χρηματιστὴν ἀλλ' οὐ ποιμένα. τῇ δὲ
ποιμενικῇ οὐ δήπου ἄλλου του μέλει ἐφ' τέτακται, ὅπως
τούτῳ τὸ βέλτιστον ἐκποριεῖἐπεὶ τά γε αὑτῆς ὥστ' εἶναι
βελτίστη ἱκανῶς δήπου ἐκπεπόρισται, ἕως γ' ἂν μηδὲν
ἐνδέῃ τοῦ ποιμενικὴ εἶναιοὕτω δὲ ᾤμην ἔγωγε νυνδὴ
ἀναγκαῖον εἶναι ἡμῖν ὁμολογεῖν πᾶσαν ἀρχήν, καθ' ὅσον
ἀρχή, μηδενὶ ἄλλῳ τὸ βέλτιστον σκοπεῖσθαι ἐκείνῳ, τῷ

Nay, my good fellow, do your best to make the matter clear to us also: it will be no bad investment for you—any benefit that you bestow on such company as this. For I tell you for my part that I am not convinced, neither do I think that injustice is more profitable than justice, not even if one gives it free scope and does not hinder it of its will. But, suppose, sir, a man to be unjust and to be able to act unjustly either because he is not detected or can maintain it by violence, all the same he does not convince me that it is more profitable than justice. Now it may be that there is someone else among us who feels in this way and that I am not the only one. Persuade us, then, my dear fellow, convince us satisfactorily that we are ill advised in preferring justice to injustice. And how am I to persuade you? he said. If you are not convinced by what I just now was saying, what more can I do for you? Shall I take the argument and ram it into your head? Heaven forbid! I said, don’t do that. But in the first place when you have said a thing stand by it, or if you shift your ground change openly and don’t try to deceive us. But, as it is, you see, Thrasymachus—let us return to the previous examples—you see that while you began by taking the physician in the true sense of the word, you did not think fit afterwards to be consistent and maintain with precision the notion of the true shepherd, but you apparently think that he herds his sheep in his quality of shepherd not with regard to what is best for the sheep but as if he were a banqueter about to be feasted with regard to the good cheer or again with a view to the sale of them as if he were a money-maker and not a shepherd. But the art of the shepherd surely is concerned with nothing else than how to provide what is best for that over which is set, since its own affairs, its own best estate, are entirely sufficiently provided for so long as it in nowise fails of being the shepherd’s art. And in like manner I supposed that we just now were constrained to acknowledge that every form of rule in so far as it is rule considers what is best for nothing else than that which is governed and cared for by it, alike in political and private rule. Why, do you think that the rulers and holders of office in our cities—the true rulers—willingly hold office and rule? I don’t think, he said, I know right well they do.

345e ἀρχομένῳ τε καὶ θεραπευομένῳ, ἔν τε πολιτικῇ καὶ ἰδιωτικῇ
ἀρχῇ. σὺ δὲ τοὺς ἄρχοντας ἐν ταῖς πόλεσιν, τοὺς ὡς ἀληθῶς
ἄρχοντας, ἑκόντας οἴει ἄρχειν;
Μὰ Δί' οὔκ, ἔφη, ἀλλ' εὖ οἶδα.
Τί δέ, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, Θρασύμαχε; τὰς ἄλλας ἀρχὰς οὐκ
ἐννοεῖς ὅτι οὐδεὶς ἐθέλει ἄρχειν ἑκών, ἀλλὰ μισθὸν αἰτοῦσιν,
ὡς οὐχὶ αὐτοῖσιν ὠφελίαν ἐσομένην ἐκ τοῦ ἄρχειν ἀλλὰ
346a τοῖς ἀρχομένοις; ἐπεὶ τοσόνδε εἰπέ· οὐχὶ ἑκάστην μέντοι
φαμὲν ἑκάστοτε τῶν τεχνῶν τούτῳ ἑτέραν εἶναι, τῷ ἑτέραν
τὴν δύναμιν ἔχειν; καί, μακάριε, μὴ παρὰ δόξαν ἀποκρίνου,
ἵνα τι καὶ περαίνωμεν.
Ἀλλὰ τούτῳ, ἔφη, ἑτέρα.
Οὐκοῦν καὶ ὠφελίαν ἑκάστη τούτων ἰδίαν τινὰ ἡμῖν παρέχεται
ἀλλ' οὐ κοινήν, οἷον ἰατρικὴ μὲν ὑγίειαν, κυβερνητικὴ
δὲ σωτηρίαν ἐν τῷ πλεῖν, καὶ αἱ ἄλλαι οὕτω;
Πάνυ γε.
346b Οὐκοῦν καὶ μισθωτικὴ μισθόν; αὕτη γὰρ αὐτῆς δύναμις·
τὴν ἰατρικὴν σὺ καὶ τὴν κυβερνητικὴν τὴν αὐτὴν καλεῖς;
ἐάνπερ βούλῃ ἀκριβῶς διορίζειν, ὥσπερ ὑπέθου, οὐδέν τι
μᾶλλον, ἐάν τις κυβερνῶν ὑγιὴς γίγνηται διὰ τὸ συμφέρον
αὐτῷ πλεῖν ἐν τῇ θαλάττῃ, ἕνεκα τούτου καλεῖς μᾶλλον
αὐτὴν ἰατρικήν;
Οὐ δῆτα, ἔφη.
Οὐδέ γ', οἶμαι, τὴν μισθωτικήν, ἐὰν ὑγιαίνῃ τις μισθαρνῶν.
Οὐ δῆτα.
Τί δέ; τὴν ἰατρικὴν μισθαρνητικήν, ἐὰν ἰώμενός τις
μισθαρνῇ;
346c Οὐκ ἔφη.
Οὐκοῦν τήν γε ὠφελίαν ἑκάστης τῆς τέχνης ἰδίαν ὡμολογήσαμεν
εἶναι;
Ἔστω, ἔφη.
Ἥντινα ἄρα ὠφελίαν κοινῇ ὠφελοῦνται πάντες οἱ δημιουργοί,
δῆλον ὅτι κοινῇ τινι τῷ αὐτῷ προσχρώμενοι ἀπ'
ἐκείνου ὠφελοῦνται.
Ἔοικεν, ἔφη.
Φαμὲν δέ γε τὸ μισθὸν ἀρνυμένους ὠφελεῖσθαι τοὺς
δημιουργοὺς ἀπὸ τοῦ προσχρῆσθαι τῇ μισθωτικῇ τέχνῃ
γίγνεσθαι αὐτοῖς.
Συνέφη μόγις.
346d Οὐκ ἄρα ἀπὸ τῆς αὑτοῦ τέχνης ἑκάστῳ αὕτη ὠφελία
ἐστίν, τοῦ μισθοῦ λῆψις, ἀλλ', εἰ δεῖ ἀκριβῶς σκοπεῖσθαι,
μὲν ἰατρικὴ ὑγίειαν ποιεῖ, δὲ μισθαρνητικὴ μισθόν, καὶ
μὲν οἰκοδομικὴ οἰκίαν, δὲ μισθαρνητικὴ αὐτῇ ἑπομένη
μισθόν, καὶ αἱ ἄλλαι πᾶσαι οὕτως τὸ αὑτῆς ἑκάστη ἔργον
ἐργάζεται καὶ ὠφελεῖ ἐκεῖνο ἐφ' τέτακται. ἐὰν δὲ μὴ
μισθὸς αὐτῇ προσγίγνηται, ἔσθ' ὅτι ὠφελεῖται δημιουργὸς
ἀπὸ τῆς τέχνης;
Οὐ φαίνεται, ἔφη.

But what of other forms of rule, Thrasymachus? Do you not perceive that no one chooses of his own will to hold the office of rule, but they demand pay, which implies that not to them will benefit accrue from their holding office but to those whom they rule? For tell me this: we ordinarily say, do we not, that each of the arts is different from others because its power or function is different? And, my dear fellow, in order that we may reach some result, don’t answer counter to your real belief. Well, yes, he said, that is what renders it different. And does not each art also yield us benefit that is peculiar to itself and not general, as for example medicine health, the pilot’s art safety at sea, and the other arts similarly? Assuredly. And does not the wage-earner’s art yield wage? For that is its function. Would you identify medicine and the pilot’s art? Or if you please to discriminate precisely as you proposed, none the more if a pilot regains his health because a sea voyage is good for him, no whit the more, I say, for this reason do you call his art medicine, do you? Of course not, he said. Neither, I take it, do you call wage-earning medicine if a man earning wages is in health. Surely not. But what of this? Do you call medicine wage-earning, if a man when giving treatment earns wages? No, he said. And did we not agree that the benefit derived from each art is peculiar to it? So be it, he said. Any common or general benefit that all craftsmen receive, then, they obviously derive from their common use of some further identical thing. It seems so, he said. And we say that the benefit of earning wages accrues to the craftsmen from their further exercise of the wage-earning art. He assented reluctantly. Then the benefit, the receiving of wages does not accrue to each from his own art. But if we are to consider it precisely medicine produces health but the fee-earning art the pay, and architecture a house but the fee-earning art accompanying it the fee, and so with all the others, each performs its own task and benefits that over which it is set, but unless pay is added to it is there any benefit which the craftsman receives from the craft? Apparently not, he said. Does he then bestow no benefit either when he works for nothing? I’ll say he does. Then, Thrasymachus, is not this immediately apparent, that no art or office provides what is beneficial for itself—but as we said long ago it provides and enjoins what is beneficial to its subject, considering the advantage of that, the weaker, and not the advantage the stronger?

346e Ἆρ' οὖν οὐδ' ὠφελεῖ τότε, ὅταν προῖκα ἐργάζηται;
Οἶμαι ἔγωγε.
Οὐκοῦν, Θρασύμαχε, τοῦτο ἤδη δῆλον, ὅτι οὐδεμία
τέχνη οὐδὲ ἀρχὴ τὸ αὑτῇ ὠφέλιμον παρασκευάζει, ἀλλ',
ὅπερ πάλαι ἐλέγομεν, τὸ τῷ ἀρχομένῳ καὶ παρασκευάζει
καὶ ἐπιτάττει, τὸ ἐκείνου συμφέρον ἥττονος ὄντος σκοποῦσα,
ἀλλ' οὐ τὸ τοῦ κρείττονος. διὰ δὴ ταῦτα ἔγωγε,
φίλε Θρασύμαχε, καὶ ἄρτι ἔλεγον μηδένα ἐθέλειν ἑκόντα
ἄρχειν καὶ τὰ ἀλλότρια κακὰ μεταχειρίζεσθαι ἀνορθοῦντα,
347a ἀλλὰ μισθὸν αἰτεῖν, ὅτι μέλλων καλῶς τῇ τέχνῃ πράξειν
οὐδέποτε αὑτῷ τὸ βέλτιστον πράττει οὐδ' ἐπιτάττει
κατὰ τὴν τέχνην ἐπιτάττων, ἀλλὰ τῷ ἀρχομένῳ· ὧν δὴ
ἕνεκα, ὡς ἔοικε, μισθὸν δεῖν ὑπάρχειν τοῖς μέλλουσιν
ἐθελήσειν ἄρχειν, ἀργύριον τιμήν, ζημίαν ἐὰν μὴ
ἄρχῃ.
Πῶς τοῦτο λέγεις, Σώκρατες; ἔφη Γλαύκων· τοὺς
μὲν γὰρ δύο μισθοὺς γιγνώσκω, τὴν δὲ ζημίαν ἥντινα λέγεις
καὶ ὡς ἐν μισθοῦ μέρει εἴρηκας, οὐ συνῆκα.
Τὸν τῶν βελτίστων ἄρα μισθόν, ἔφην, οὐ συνιεῖς, δι' ὃν

That was why, friend Thrasymachus, I was just now saying that no one of his own will chooses to hold rule and office and take other people’s troubles in hand to straighten them out, but everybody expects pay for that, because he who is to exercise the art rightly never does what is best for himself or enjoins it when he gives commands according to the art, but what is best for the subject. That is the reason, it seems, why pay must be provided for those who are to consent to rule, either in form of money or honor or a penalty if they refuse.

347b ἄρχουσιν οἱ ἐπιεικέστατοι, ὅταν ἐθέλωσιν ἄρχειν. οὐκ
οἶσθα ὅτι τὸ φιλότιμόν τε καὶ φιλάργυρον εἶναι ὄνειδος
λέγεταί τε καὶ ἔστιν;
Ἔγωγε, ἔφη.
Διὰ ταῦτα τοίνυν, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, οὔτε χρημάτων ἕνεκα ἐθέλουσιν
ἄρχειν οἱ ἀγαθοὶ οὔτε τιμῆς· οὔτε γὰρ φανερῶς
πραττόμενοι τῆς ἀρχῆς ἕνεκα μισθὸν μισθωτοὶ βούλονται
κεκλῆσθαι, οὔτε λάθρᾳ αὐτοὶ ἐκ τῆς ἀρχῆς λαμβάνοντες
κλέπται. οὐδ' αὖ τιμῆς ἕνεκα· οὐ γάρ εἰσι φιλότιμοι. δεῖ δὴ
347c αὐτοῖς ἀνάγκην προσεῖναι καὶ ζημίαν, εἰ μέλλουσιν ἐθέλειν
ἄρχεινὅθεν κινδυνεύει τὸ ἑκόντα ἐπὶ τὸ ἄρχειν ἰέναι
ἀλλὰ μὴ ἀνάγκην περιμένειν αἰσχρὸν νενομίσθαιτῆς δὲ
ζημίας μεγίστη τὸ ὑπὸ πονηροτέρου ἄρχεσθαι, ἐὰν μὴ αὐτὸς
ἐθέλῃ ἄρχειν· ἣν δείσαντές μοι φαίνονται ἄρχειν, ὅταν
ἄρχωσιν, οἱ ἐπιεικεῖς, καὶ τότε ἔρχονται ἐπὶ τὸ ἄρχειν οὐχ
ὡς ἐπ' ἀγαθόν τι ἰόντες οὐδ' ὡς εὐπαθήσοντες ἐν αὐτῷ, ἀλλ'
347d ὡς ἐπ' ἀναγκαῖον καὶ οὐκ ἔχοντες ἑαυτῶν βελτίοσιν ἐπιτρέψαι
οὐδὲ ὁμοίοις. ἐπεὶ κινδυνεύει πόλις ἀνδρῶν ἀγαθῶν
εἰ γένοιτο, περιμάχητον ἂν εἶναι τὸ μὴ ἄρχειν ὥσπερ
νυνὶ τὸ ἄρχειν, καὶ ἐνταῦθ' ἂν καταφανὲς γενέσθαι ὅτι τῷ
ὄντι ἀληθινὸς ἄρχων οὐ πέφυκε τὸ αὑτῷ συμφέρον σκοπεῖσθαι
ἀλλὰ τὸ τῷ ἀρχομένῳ· ὥστε πᾶς ἂν γιγνώσκων τὸ
ὠφελεῖσθαι μᾶλλον ἕλοιτο ὑπ' ἄλλου ἄλλον ὠφελῶν
πράγματα ἔχειν. τοῦτο μὲν οὖν ἔγωγε οὐδαμῇ συγχωρῶ
347e Θρασυμάχῳ, ὡς τὸ δίκαιόν ἐστιν τὸ τοῦ κρείττονος συμφέρον.
ἀλλὰ τοῦτο μὲν δὴ καὶ εἰς αὖθις σκεψόμεθα· πολὺ δέ μοι
δοκεῖ μεῖζον εἶναι νῦν λέγει Θρασύμαχος, τὸν τοῦ ἀδίκου
βίον φάσκων εἶναι κρείττω τὸν τοῦ δικαίου. σὺ οὖν
ποτέρως, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, Γλαύκων, αἱρῇ; καὶ πότερον ἀληθεστέρως
δοκεῖ σοι λέγεσθαι;
Τὸν τοῦ δικαίου ἔγωγε λυσιτελέστερον βίον εἶναι.
What do you mean by that, Socrates? said Glaucon. The two wages I recognize, but the penalty you speak of and described as a form of wage I don’t understand. Then, said I, you don’t understand the wages of the best men for the sake of which the finest spirits hold office and rule when they consent to do so. Don’t you know that to be covetous of honor and covetous of money is said to be and is a reproach? I do, he said. Well, then, said I, that is why the good are not willing to rule either for the sake of money or of honor. They do not wish to collect pay openly for their service of rule and be styled hirelings nor to take it by stealth from their office and be called thieves, nor yet for the sake of honor, for they are not covetous of honor. So there must be imposed some compulsion and penalty to constrain them to rule if they are to consent to hold office. That is perhaps why to seek office oneself and not await compulsion is thought disgraceful. But the chief penalty is to be governed by someone worse if a man will not himself hold office and rule. It is from fear of this, as it appears to me, that the better sort hold office when they do, and then they go to it not in the expectation of enjoyment nor as to a good thing, but as to a necessary evil and because they are unable to turn it over to better men than themselves or to their like. For we may venture to say that, if there should be a city of good men only, immunity from office-holding would be as eagerly contended for as office is now, and there it would be made plain that in very truth the true ruler does not naturally seek his own advantage but that of the ruled; so that every man of understanding would rather choose to be benefited by another than to be bothered with benefiting him. This point then I by no means concede to Thrasymachus, that justice is the advantage of the superior. But that we will reserve for another occasion. A far weightier matter seems to me Thrasymachus’s present statement, his assertion that the life of the unjust man is better than that of the just. Which now do you choose, Glaucon? said I, and which seems to you to be the truer statement? That the life of the just man is more profitable, I say, he replied.
348a Ἤκουσας, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, ὅσα ἄρτι Θρασύμαχος ἀγαθὰ διῆλθεν
τῷ τοῦ ἀδίκου;
Ἤκουσα, ἔφη, ἀλλ' οὐ πείθομαι.
Βούλει οὖν αὐτὸν πείθωμεν, ἂν δυνώμεθά πῃ ἐξευρεῖν, ὡς
οὐκ ἀληθῆ λέγει;
Πῶς γὰρ οὐ βούλομαι; δ' ὅς.
Ἂν μὲν τοίνυν, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, ἀντικατατείναντες λέγωμεν
αὐτῷ λόγον παρὰ λόγον, ὅσα αὖ ἀγαθὰ ἔχει τὸ δίκαιον
εἶναι, καὶ αὖθις οὗτος, καὶ ἄλλον ἡμεῖς, ἀριθμεῖν δεήσει
348b τἀγαθὰ καὶ μετρεῖν ὅσα ἑκάτεροι ἐν ἑκατέρῳ λέγομεν, καὶ
ἤδη δικαστῶν τινων τῶν διακρινούντων δεησόμεθα· ἂν δὲ
ὥσπερ ἄρτι ἀνομολογούμενοι πρὸς ἀλλήλους σκοπῶμεν, ἅμα
αὐτοί τε δικασταὶ καὶ ῥήτορες ἐσόμεθα.
Πάνυ μὲν οὖν, ἔφη.
Ὁποτέρως οὖν σοι, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, ἀρέσκει.
Οὕτως, ἔφη.
Ἴθι δή, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, Θρασύμαχε, ἀπόκριναι ἡμῖν ἐξ
ἀρχῆς. τὴν τελέαν ἀδικίαν τελέας οὔσης δικαιοσύνης
λυσιτελεστέραν φῂς εἶναι;
Did you hear, said I, all the goods that Thrasymachus just now enumerated for the life of the unjust man? I heard, he said, but I am not convinced. Do you wish us then to try to persuade him, supposing we can find a way, that what he says is not true? Of course I wish it, he said. If then we oppose him in a set speech enumerating in turn the advantages of being just and he replies and we rejoin, we shall have to count up and measure the goods listed in the respective speeches and we shall forthwith be in need of judges to decide between us. But if, as in the preceding discussion, we come to terms with one another as to what we admit in the inquiry, we shall be ourselves both judges and pleaders. Quite so, he said. Which method do you like best? said I. This one, he said.
348c Πάνυ μὲν οὖν καὶ φημί, ἔφη, καὶ δι' , εἴρηκα.
Φέρε δή, τὸ τοιόνδε περὶ αὐτῶν πῶς λέγεις; τὸ μέν που
ἀρετὴν αὐτοῖν καλεῖς, τὸ δὲ κακίαν;
Πῶς γὰρ οὔ;
Οὐκοῦν τὴν μὲν δικαιοσύνην ἀρετήν, τὴν δὲ ἀδικίαν
κακίαν;
Εἰκός γ', ἔφη, ἥδιστε, ἐπειδή γε καὶ λέγω ἀδικίαν μὲν
λυσιτελεῖν, δικαιοσύνην δ' οὔ.
Ἀλλὰ τί μήν;
Τοὐναντίον, δ' ὅς.
τὴν δικαιοσύνην κακίαν;
Οὔκ, ἀλλὰ πάνυ γενναίαν εὐήθειαν.
348d Τὴν ἀδικίαν ἄρα κακοήθειαν καλεῖς;
Οὔκ, ἀλλ' εὐβουλίαν, ἔφη.
καὶ φρόνιμοί σοι, Θρασύμαχε, δοκοῦσιν εἶναι καὶ
ἀγαθοὶ οἱ ἄδικοι;
Οἵ γε τελέως, ἔφη, οἷοί τε ἀδικεῖν, πόλεις τε καὶ ἔθνη
δυνάμενοι ἀνθρώπων ὑφ' ἑαυτοὺς ποιεῖσθαι· σὺ δὲ οἴει με
ἴσως τοὺς τὰ βαλλάντια ἀποτέμνοντας λέγειν. λυσιτελεῖ
μὲν οὖν, δ' ὅς, καὶ τὰ τοιαῦτα, ἐάνπερ λανθάνῃ· ἔστι δὲ
οὐκ ἄξια λόγου, ἀλλ' νυνδὴ ἔλεγον.
348e Τοῦτο μέν, ἔφην, οὐκ ἀγνοῶ βούλει λέγειν, ἀλλὰ τόδε
ἐθαύμασα, εἰ ἐν ἀρετῆς καὶ σοφίας τιθεῖς μέρει τὴν ἀδικίαν,
τὴν δὲ δικαιοσύνην ἐν τοῖς ἐναντίοις.
Ἀλλὰ πάνυ οὕτω τίθημι.
Τοῦτο, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, ἤδη στερεώτερον, ἑταῖρε, καὶ οὐκέτι
ῥᾴδιον ἔχειν ὅτι τις εἴπῃ. εἰ γὰρ λυσιτελεῖν μὲν τὴν
ἀδικίαν ἐτίθεσο, κακίαν μέντοι αἰσχρὸν αὐτὸ ὡμολόγεις
εἶναι ὥσπερ ἄλλοι τινές, εἴχομεν ἄν τι λέγειν κατὰ τὰ
νομιζόμενα λέγοντες· νῦν δὲ δῆλος εἶ ὅτι φήσεις αὐτὸ καὶ
καλὸν καὶ ἰσχυρὸν εἶναι καὶ τἆλλα αὐτῷ πάντα προσθήσεις
Come then, Thrasymachus, I said, go back to the beginning and answer us. You affirm that perfect and complete injustice is more profitable than justice that is complete. I affirm it, he said, and have told you my reasons. Tell me then how you would express yourself on this point about them. You call one of them, I presume, a virtue and the other a vice? Of course. Justice the virtue and injustice the vice? It is likely, you innocent, when I say that injustice pays and justice doesn’t pay. But what then, pray? The opposite, he replied. What! justice vice? No, but a most noble simplicity or goodness of heart. Then do you call injustice badness of heart? No, but goodness of judgement. Do you also, Thrasymachus, regard the unjust as intelligent and good? Yes, if they are capable of complete injustice, he said, and are able to subject to themselves cities and tribes of men. But you probably suppose that I mean those who take purses. There is profit to be sure even in that sort of thing, he said, if it goes undetected. But such things are not worth taking into the account, but only what I just described. I am not unaware of your meaning in that, I said; but this is what surprised me, that you should range injustice under the head of virtue and wisdom, and justice in the opposite class. Well, I do so class them, he said. That, said I, is a stiffer proposition, my friend, and if you are going as far as that it is hard to know what to answer.
349a ἡμεῖς τῷ δικαίῳ προσετίθεμεν, ἐπειδή γε καὶ ἐν ἀρετῇ
αὐτὸ καὶ σοφίᾳ ἐτόλμησας θεῖναι.
Ἀληθέστατα, ἔφη, μαντεύῃ.
Ἀλλ' οὐ μέντοι, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, ἀποκνητέον γε τῷ λόγῳ
ἐπεξελθεῖν σκοπούμενον, ἕως ἄν σε ὑπολαμβάνω λέγειν
ἅπερ διανοῇ. ἐμοὶ γὰρ δοκεῖς σύ, Θρασύμαχε, ἀτεχνῶς
νῦν οὐ σκώπτειν, ἀλλὰ τὰ δοκοῦντα περὶ τῆς ἀληθείας
λέγειν.
Τί δέ σοι, ἔφη, τοῦτο διαφέρει, εἴτε μοι δοκεῖ εἴτε μή,
ἀλλ' οὐ τὸν λόγον ἐλέγχεις;
349b Οὐδέν, ἦν δ' ἐγώ. ἀλλὰ τόδε μοι πειρῶ ἔτι πρὸς τούτοις
ἀποκρίνασθαι· δίκαιος τοῦ δικαίου δοκεῖ τί σοι ἂν
ἐθέλειν πλέον ἔχειν;
Οὐδαμῶς, ἔφη· οὐ γὰρ ἂν ἦν ἀστεῖος, ὥσπερ νῦν, καὶ
εὐήθης.
Τί δέ; τῆς δικαίας πράξεως;
Οὐδὲ τῆς δικαίας, ἔφη.
Τοῦ δὲ ἀδίκου πότερον ἀξιοῖ ἂν πλεονεκτεῖν καὶ ἡγοῖτο
δίκαιον εἶναι, οὐκ ἂν ἡγοῖτο;
Ἡγοῖτ' ἄν, δ' ὅς, καὶ ἀξιοῖ, ἀλλ' οὐκ ἂν δύναιτο.
Ἀλλ' οὐ τοῦτο, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, ἐρωτῶ, ἀλλ' εἰ τοῦ μὲν
349c δικαίου μὴ ἀξιοῖ πλέον ἔχειν μηδὲ βούλεται δίκαιος, τοῦ
δὲ ἀδίκου;
Ἀλλ' οὕτως, ἔφη, ἔχει.
Τί δὲ δὴ ἄδικος; ἆρα ἀξιοῖ τοῦ δικαίου πλεονεκτεῖν καὶ
τῆς δικαίας πράξεως;
Πῶς γὰρ οὔκ; ἔφη, ὅς γε πάντων πλέον ἔχειν ἀξιοῖ;
Οὐκοῦν καὶ ἀδίκου γε ἀνθρώπου τε καὶ πράξεως ἄδικος
πλεονεκτήσει καὶ ἁμιλλήσεται ὡς ἁπάντων πλεῖστον αὐτὸς
λάβῃ;
Ἔστι ταῦτα.
Ὧδε δὴ λέγωμεν, ἔφην· δίκαιος τοῦ μὲν ὁμοίου οὐ
πλεονεκτεῖ, τοῦ δὲ ἀνομοίου, δὲ ἄδικος τοῦ τε ὁμοίου καὶ

For if your position were that injustice is profitable yet you conceded it to be vicious and disgraceful as some other disputants do, there would be a chance for an argument on conventional principles. But, as it is, you obviously are going to affirm that it is honorable and strong and you will attach to it all the other qualities that we were assigning to the just, since you don’t shrink from putting it in the category of virtue and wisdom. You are a most veritable prophet, he replied. Well, said I, I mustn’t flinch from following out the logic of the inquiry, so long as I conceive you to be saying what you think. For now, Thrasymachus, I absolutely believe that you are not mocking us but telling us your real opinions about the truth. What difference does it make to you, he said, whether I believe it or not? Why don’t you test the argument? No difference, said I, but here is something I want you to tell me in addition to what you have said. Do you think the just man would want to overreach or exceed another just man? By no means, he said; otherwise he would not be the delightful simpleton that he is. And would he exceed or overreach or go beyond the just action? Not that either, he replied. But how would he treat the unjust man—would he deem it proper and just to outdo, overreach, or go beyond him or would he not? He would, he said, but he wouldn’t be able to. That is not my question, I said, but whether it is not the fact that the just man does not claim and wish to outdo the just man but only the unjust? That is the case, he replied. How about the unjust then? Does he claim to overreach and outdo the just man and the just action? Of course, he said, since he claims to overreach and get the better of everything. Then the unjust man will overreach and outdo also both the unjust man and the unjust action, and all his endeavor will be to get the most in everything for himself. That is so.

349d τοῦ ἀνομοίου;
Ἄριστα, ἔφη, εἴρηκας.
Ἔστιν δέ γε, ἔφην, φρόνιμός τε καὶ ἀγαθὸς ἄδικος,
δὲ δίκαιος οὐδέτερα;
Καὶ τοῦτ', ἔφη, εὖ.
Οὐκοῦν, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, καὶ ἔοικε τῷ φρονίμῳ καὶ τῷ ἀγαθῷ
ἄδικος, δὲ δίκαιος οὐκ ἔοικεν;
Πῶς γὰρ οὐ μέλλει, ἔφη, τοιοῦτος ὢν καὶ ἐοικέναι τοῖς
τοιούτοις, δὲ μὴ ἐοικέναι;
Καλῶς. τοιοῦτος ἄρα ἐστὶν ἑκάτερος αὐτῶν οἷσπερ
ἔοικεν;
Ἀλλὰ τί μέλλει; ἔφη.
Εἶεν, Θρασύμαχε· μουσικὸν δέ τινα λέγεις, ἕτερον δὲ
349e ἄμουσον;
Ἔγωγε.
Πότερον φρόνιμον καὶ πότερον ἄφρονα;
Τὸν μὲν μουσικὸν δήπου φρόνιμον, τὸν δὲ ἄμουσον
ἄφρονα.
Οὐκοῦν καὶ ἅπερ φρόνιμον, ἀγαθόν, δὲ ἄφρονα, κακόν;
Ναί.
Τί δὲ ἰατρικόν; οὐχ οὕτως;
Οὕτως.
Δοκεῖ ἂν οὖν τίς σοι, ἄριστε, μουσικὸς ἀνὴρ ἁρμοττόμενος
λύραν ἐθέλειν μουσικοῦ ἀνδρὸς ἐν τῇ ἐπιτάσει
καὶ ἀνέσει τῶν χορδῶν πλεονεκτεῖν ἀξιοῦν πλέον
ἔχειν;
Οὐκ ἔμοιγε.
Τί δέ; ἀμούσου;
Ἀνάγκη, ἔφη.
Let us put it in this way, I said; the just man does not seek to take advantage of his like but of his unlike, but the unjust man of both. Admirably put, he said. But the unjust man is intelligent and good and the just man neither. That, too, is right, he said. Is it not also true, I said, that the unjust man is like the intelligent and good and the just man is not? Of course, he said, being such he will be like to such and the other not. Excellent. Then each is such as that to which he is like. What else do you suppose? he said. Very well, Thrasymachus, but do you recognize that one man is a musician and another unmusical? I do. Which is the intelligent and which the unintelligent? The musician, I presume, is the intelligent and the unmusical the unintelligent. And is he not good in the things in which he is intelligent and bad in the things in which he is unintelligent? Yes. And the same of the physician? The same. Do you think then, my friend, that any musician in the tuning of a lyre would want to overreach another musician in the tightening and relaxing of the strings or would claim and think fit to exceed or outdo him? I do not. But would the the unmusical man? Of necessity, he said.
350a Τί δὲ ἰατρικός; ἐν τῇ ἐδωδῇ πόσει ἐθέλειν ἄν τι
ἰατρικοῦ πλεονεκτεῖν ἀνδρὸς πράγματος;
Οὐ δῆτα.
Μὴ ἰατρικοῦ δέ;
Ναί.
Περὶ πάσης δὴ ὅρα ἐπιστήμης τε καὶ ἀνεπιστημοσύνης
εἴ τίς σοι δοκεῖ ἐπιστήμων ὁστισοῦν πλείω ἂν ἐθέλειν
αἱρεῖσθαι ὅσα ἄλλος ἐπιστήμων πράττειν λέγειν, καὶ
οὐ ταὐτὰ τῷ ὁμοίῳ ἑαυτῷ εἰς τὴν αὐτὴν πρᾶξιν.
Ἀλλ' ἴσως, ἔφη, ἀνάγκη τοῦτό γε οὕτως ἔχειν.
Τί δὲ ἀνεπιστήμων; οὐχὶ ὁμοίως μὲν ἐπιστήμονος
350b πλεονεκτήσειεν ἄν, ὁμοίως δὲ ἀνεπιστήμονος;
Ἴσως.
δὲ ἐπιστήμων σοφός;
Φημί.
δὲ σοφὸς ἀγαθός;
Φημί.
ἄρα ἀγαθός τε καὶ σοφὸς τοῦ μὲν ὁμοίου οὐκ ἐθελήσει
πλεονεκτεῖν, τοῦ δὲ ἀνομοίου τε καὶ ἐναντίου.
Ἔοικεν, ἔφη.
δὲ κακός τε καὶ ἀμαθὴς τοῦ τε ὁμοίου καὶ τοῦ
ἐναντίου.
Φαίνεται.
Οὐκοῦν, Θρασύμαχε, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, ἄδικος ἡμῖν τοῦ
ἀνομοίου τε καὶ ὁμοίου πλεονεκτεῖ; οὐχ οὕτως ἔλεγες;
Ἔγωγε, ἔφη.
350c δέ γε δίκαιος τοῦ μὲν ὁμοίου οὐ πλεονεκτήσει, τοῦ δὲ
ἀνομοίου;
Ναί.
Ἔοικεν ἄρα, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, μὲν δίκαιος τῷ σοφῷ καὶ
ἀγαθῷ, δὲ ἄδικος τῷ κακῷ καὶ ἀμαθεῖ.
Κινδυνεύει.
Ἀλλὰ μὴν ὡμολογοῦμεν, γε ὅμοιος ἑκάτερος εἴη,
τοιοῦτον καὶ ἑκάτερον εἶναι.
Ὡμολογοῦμεν γάρ.
μὲν ἄρα δίκαιος ἡμῖν ἀναπέφανται ὢν ἀγαθός τε καὶ
σοφός, δὲ ἄδικος ἀμαθής τε καὶ κακός.
δὴ Θρασύμαχος ὡμολόγησε μὲν πάντα ταῦτα, οὐχ

And how about the medical man? In prescribing food and drink would he want to outdo the medical man or the medical procedure? Surely not. But he would the unmedical man? Yes. Consider then with regard to all forms of knowledge and ignorance whether you think that anyone who knows would choose to do or say other or more than what another who knows would do or say, and not rather exactly what his like would do in the same action. Why, perhaps it must be so, he said, in such cases. But what of the ignorant man—of him who does not know? Would he not overreach or outdo equally the knower and the ignorant? It may be. But the one who knows is wise? I’ll say so. And the wise is good? I’ll say so. Then he who is good and wise will not wish to overreach his like but his unlike and opposite. It seems so, he said. But the bad man and the ignoramus will overreach both like and unlike? So it appears. And does not our unjust man, Thrasymachus, overreach both unlike and like? Did you not say that? I did, he replied. But the just man will not overreach his like but only his unlike? Yes. Then the just man is like the wise and good, and the unjust is like the bad and the ignoramus. It seems likely. But furthermore we agreed that such is each as that to which he is like. Yes, we did. Then the just man has turned out on our hands to be good and wise and the unjust man bad and ignorant.

350d ὡς ἐγὼ νῦν ῥᾳδίως λέγω, ἀλλ' ἑλκόμενος καὶ μόγις, μετὰ
ἱδρῶτος θαυμαστοῦ ὅσου, ἅτε καὶ θέρους ὄντοςτότε καὶ
εἶδον ἐγώ, πρότερον δὲ οὔπω, Θρασύμαχον ἐρυθριῶντα
ἐπειδὴ δὲ οὖν διωμολογησάμεθα τὴν δικαιοσύνην ἀρετὴν
εἶναι καὶ σοφίαν, τὴν δὲ ἀδικίαν κακίαν τε καὶ ἀμαθίαν,
Εἶεν, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, τοῦτο μὲν ἡμῖν οὕτω κείσθω, ἔφαμεν δὲ
δὴ καὶ ἰσχυρὸν εἶναι τὴν ἀδικίαν. οὐ μέμνησαι,
Θρασύμαχε;
Μέμνημαι, ἔφη· ἀλλ' ἔμοιγε οὐδὲ νῦν λέγεις ἀρέσκει,
καὶ ἔχω περὶ αὐτῶν λέγειν. εἰ οὖν λέγοιμι, εὖ οἶδ' ὅτι
350e δημηγορεῖν ἄν με φαίης. οὖν ἔα με εἰπεῖν ὅσα βούλομαι,
, εἰ βούλει ἐρωτᾶν, ἐρώτα· ἐγὼ δέ σοι, ὥσπερ ταῖς γραυσὶν
ταῖς τοὺς μύθους λεγούσαις, "εἶεν" ἐρῶ καὶ κατανεύσομαι
καὶ ἀνανεύσομαι.
Μηδαμῶς, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, παρά γε τὴν σαυτοῦ δόξαν.
Ὥστε σοί, ἔφη, ἀρέσκειν, ἐπειδήπερ οὐκ ἐᾷς λέγειν.
καίτοι τί ἄλλο βούλει;
Οὐδὲν μὰ Δία, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, ἀλλ' εἴπερ τοῦτο ποιήσεις,
ποίει· ἐγὼ δὲ ἐρωτήσω.
Ἐρώτα δή.
Τοῦτο τοίνυν ἐρωτῶ, ὅπερ ἄρτι, ἵνα καὶ ἑξῆς διασκεψώμεθα
Thrasymachus made all these admissions not as I now lightly narrate them, but with much baulking and reluctance and prodigious sweating, it being summer, and it was then I beheld what I had never seen before—Thrasymachus blushing. But when we did reach our conclusion that justice is virtue and wisdom and injustice vice and ignorance, Good, said I, let this be taken as established. But we were also affirming that injustice is a strong and potent thing. Don’t you remember, Thrasymachus? I remember, he said; but I don’t agree with what you are now saying either and I have an answer to it, but if I were to attempt to state it, I know very well that you would say that I was delivering a harangue. Either then allow me to speak at such length as I desire, or, if you prefer to ask questions, go on questioning and I, as we do for old wives telling their tales, will say Very good and will nod assent and dissent. No, no, said I, not counter to your own belief. Yes, to please you, he said, since you don’t allow me freedom of speech. And yet what more do you want? Nothing, indeed, said I; but if this is what you propose to do, do it and I will ask the questions. Ask on, then.
351a τὸν λόγον, ὁποῖόν τι τυγχάνει ὂν δικαιοσύνη πρὸς
ἀδικίαν. ἐλέχθη γάρ που ὅτι καὶ δυνατώτερον καὶ ἰσχυρότερον
εἴη ἀδικία δικαιοσύνης· νῦν δέ γ', ἔφην, εἴπερ σοφία
τε καὶ ἀρετή ἐστιν δικαιοσύνη, ῥᾳδίως οἶμαι φανήσεται καὶ
ἰσχυρότερον ἀδικίας, ἐπειδήπερ ἐστὶν ἀμαθία ἀδικία
οὐδεὶς ἂν ἔτι τοῦτο ἀγνοήσειενἀλλ' οὔ τι οὕτως ἁπλῶς,
Θρασύμαχε, ἔγωγε ἐπιθυμῶ, ἀλλὰ τῇδέ πῃ σκέψασθαι·
351b πόλιν φαίης ἂν ἄδικον εἶναι καὶ ἄλλας πόλεις ἐπιχειρεῖν
δουλοῦσθαι ἀδίκως καὶ καταδεδουλῶσθαι, πολλὰς δὲ καὶ
ὑφ' ἑαυτῇ ἔχειν δουλωσαμένην;
Πῶς γὰρ οὔκ; ἔφη. καὶ τοῦτό γε ἀρίστη μάλιστα
ποιήσει καὶ τελεώτατα οὖσα ἄδικος.
Μανθάνω, ἔφην, ὅτι σὸς οὗτος ἦν λόγος. ἀλλὰ τόδε
περὶ αὐτοῦ σκοπῶ· πότερον κρείττων γιγνομένη πόλις
πόλεως ἄνευ δικαιοσύνης τὴν δύναμιν ταύτην ἕξει, ἀνάγκη
αὐτῇ μετὰ δικαιοσύνης;
351c Εἰ μέν, ἔφη, ὡς σὺ ἄρτι ἔλεγες ἔχει δικαιοσύνη
σοφίαμετὰ δικαιοσύνης· εἰ δ' ὡς ἐγὼ ἔλεγον, μετὰ
ἀδικίας.
Πάνυ ἄγαμαι, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, Θρασύμαχε, ὅτι οὐκ ἐπινεύεις
μόνον καὶ ἀνανεύεις, ἀλλὰ καὶ ἀποκρίνῃ πάνυ καλῶς.
Σοὶ γάρ, ἔφη, χαρίζομαι.
Εὖ γε σὺ ποιῶν· ἀλλὰ δὴ καὶ τόδε μοι χάρισαι καὶ λέγε·
δοκεῖς ἂν πόλιν στρατόπεδον λῃστὰς κλέπτας
ἄλλο τι ἔθνος, ὅσα κοινῇ ἐπί τι ἔρχεται ἀδίκως, πρᾶξαι ἄν
τι δύνασθαι, εἰ ἀδικοῖεν ἀλλήλους;

This, then, is the question I ask, the same as before, so that our inquiry may proceed in sequence. What is the nature of injustice as compared with justice? For the statement made, I believe, was that injustice is a more potent and stronger thing than justice. But now, I said, if justice is wisdom and virtue, it will easily, I take it, be shown to be also a stronger thing than injustice, since injustice is ignorance—no one could now fail to recognize that—but what I want is not quite so simple as that. I wish, Thrasymachus, to consider it in some such fashion as this. A city, you would say, may be unjust and try to enslave other cities unjustly, have them enslaved and hold many of them in subjection. Certainly, he said; and this is what the best state will chiefly do, the state whose injustice is most complete. I understand, I said, that this was your view. But the point that I am considering is this, whether the city that thus shows itself superior to another will have this power without justice or whether she must of necessity combine it with justice. If, he replied, what you were just now saying holds good, that justice is wisdom, with justice; if it is as I said, with injustice. Admirable, Thrasymachus, I said; you not only nod assent and dissent, but give excellent answers. I am trying to please you, he replied.

351d Οὐ δῆτα, δ' ὅς.
Τί δ' εἰ μὴ ἀδικοῖεν; οὐ μᾶλλον;
Πάνυ γε.
Στάσεις γάρ που, Θρασύμαχε, γε ἀδικία καὶ μίση
καὶ μάχας ἐν ἀλλήλοις παρέχει, δὲ δικαιοσύνη ὁμόνοιαν
καὶ φιλίαν· γάρ;
Ἔστω, δ' ὅς, ἵνα σοι μὴ διαφέρωμαι.
Ἀλλ' εὖ γε σὺ ποιῶν, ἄριστε. τόδε δέ μοι λέγε·
ἆρα εἰ τοῦτο ἔργον ἀδικίας, μῖσος ἐμποιεῖν ὅπου ἂν ἐνῇ, οὐ
καὶ ἐν ἐλευθέροις τε καὶ δούλοις ἐγγιγνομένη μισεῖν ποιήσει
ἀλλήλους καὶ στασιάζειν καὶ ἀδυνάτους εἶναι κοινῇ μετ'
351e ἀλλήλων πράττειν;
Πάνυ γε.
Τί δὲ ἂν ἐν δυοῖν ἐγγένηται; οὐ διοίσονται καὶ μισήσουσιν
καὶ ἐχθροὶ ἔσονται ἀλλήλοις τε καὶ τοῖς δικαίοις;
Ἔσονται, ἔφη.
Ἐὰν δὲ δή, θαυμάσιε, ἐν ἑνὶ ἐγγένηται ἀδικία, μῶν
μὴ ἀπολεῖ τὴν αὑτῆς δύναμιν, οὐδὲν ἧττον ἕξει;
Μηδὲν ἧττον ἐχέτω, ἔφη.
Οὐκοῦν τοιάνδε τινὰ φαίνεται ἔχουσα τὴν δύναμιν, οἵαν,
ἂν ἐγγένηται, εἴτε πόλει τινὶ εἴτε γένει εἴτε στρατοπέδῳ εἴτε
Very kind of you. But please me in one thing more and tell me this: do you think that a city, an army, or bandits, or thieves, or any other group that attempted any action in common, could accomplish anything if they wronged one another? Certainly not, said he. But if they didn’t, wouldn’t they be more likely to? Assuredly. For factions, Thrasymachus, are the outcome of injustice, and hatreds and internecine conflicts, but justice brings oneness of mind and love. Is it not so? So be it, he replied, not to differ from you. That is good of you, my friend; but tell me this: if it is the business of injustice to engender hatred wherever it is found, will it not, when it springs up either among freemen or slaves, cause them to hate and be at strife with one another, and make them incapable of effective action in common? By all means. Suppose, then, it springs up between two, will they not be at outs with and hate each other and be enemies both to one another and to the just? They will, he said. And then will you tell me that if injustice arises in one it will lose its force and function or will it none the less keep it? Have it that it keeps it, he said.
352a ἄλλῳ ὁτῳοῦν, πρῶτον μὲν ἀδύνατον αὐτὸ ποιεῖν πράττειν μεθ'
αὑτοῦ διὰ τὸ στασιάζειν καὶ διαφέρεσθαι, ἔτι δ' ἐχθρὸν εἶναι
ἑαυτῷ τε καὶ τῷ ἐναντίῳ παντὶ καὶ τῷ δικαίῳ; οὐχ οὕτως;
Πάνυ γε.
Καὶ ἐν ἑνὶ δὴ οἶμαι ἐνοῦσα ταὐτὰ ταῦτα ποιήσει ἅπερ
πέφυκεν ἐργάζεσθαι· πρῶτον μὲν ἀδύνατον αὐτὸν πράττειν
ποιήσει στασιάζοντα καὶ οὐχ ὁμονοοῦντα αὐτὸν ἑαυτῷ,
ἔπειτα ἐχθρὸν καὶ ἑαυτῷ καὶ τοῖς δικαίοις· γάρ;
Ναί.
Δίκαιοι δέ γ' εἰσίν, φίλε, καὶ οἱ θεοί;
Ἔστω, ἔφη.
352b Καὶ θεοῖς ἄρα ἐχθρὸς ἔσται ἄδικος, Θρασύμαχε,
δὲ δίκαιος φίλος.
Εὐωχοῦ τοῦ λόγου, ἔφη, θαρρῶν· οὐ γὰρ ἔγωγέ σοι
ἐναντιώσομαι, ἵνα μὴ τοῖσδε ἀπέχθωμαι.
Ἴθι δή, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, καὶ τὰ λοιπά μοι τῆς ἑστιάσεως ἀποπλήρωσον
ἀποκρινόμενος ὥσπερ καὶ νῦν. ὅτι μὲν γὰρ καὶ
σοφώτεροι καὶ ἀμείνους καὶ δυνατώτεροι πράττειν οἱ δίκαιοι
φαίνονται, οἱ δὲ ἄδικοι οὐδὲ πράττειν μετ' ἀλλήλων οἷοί
352c τεἀλλὰ δὴ καὶ οὕς φαμεν ἐρρωμένως πώποτέ τι μετ'
ἀλλήλων κοινῇ πρᾶξαι ἀδίκους ὄντας, τοῦτο οὐ παντάπασιν
ἀληθὲς λέγομεν· οὐ γὰρ ἂν ἀπείχοντο ἀλλήλων κομιδῇ
ὄντες ἄδικοι, ἀλλὰ δῆλον ὅτι ἐνῆν τις αὐτοῖς δικαιοσύνη,
αὐτοὺς ἐποίει μήτοι καὶ ἀλλήλους γε καὶ ἐφ' οὓς ᾖσαν
ἅμα ἀδικεῖν, δι' ἣν ἔπραξαν ἔπραξαν, ὥρμησαν δὲ ἐπὶ
τὰ ἄδικα ἀδικίᾳ ἡμιμόχθηροι ὄντες, ἐπεὶ οἵ γε παμπόνηροι
καὶ τελέως ἄδικοι τελέως εἰσὶ καὶ πράττειν ἀδύνατοιταῦτα
352d μὲν οὖν ὅτι οὕτως ἔχει μανθάνω, ἀλλ' οὐχ ὡς σὺ τὸ πρῶτον
ἐτίθεσο· εἰ δὲ καὶ ἄμεινον ζῶσιν οἱ δίκαιοι τῶν ἀδίκων καὶ
εὐδαιμονέστεροί εἰσιν, ὅπερ τὸ ὕστερον προυθέμεθα σκέψασθαι,
σκεπτέον. φαίνονται μὲν οὖν καὶ νῦν, ὥς γέ μοι δοκεῖ, ἐξ
ὧν εἰρήκαμεν· ὅμως δ' ἔτι βέλτιον σκεπτέον. οὐ γὰρ περὶ τοῦ
ἐπιτυχόντος λόγος, ἀλλὰ περὶ τοῦ ὅντινα τρόπον χρὴ ζῆν.
Σκόπει δή, ἔφη.
Σκοπῶ, ἦν δ' ἐγώ. καί μοι λέγε· δοκεῖ τί σοι εἶναι
ἵππου ἔργον;

And is it not apparent that its force is such that wherever it is found in city, family, camp, or in anything else it first renders the thing incapable of cooperation with itself owing to faction and difference, and secondly an enemy to itself and to its opposite in every case, the just? Isn’t that so? By all means. Then in the individual too, I presume, its presence will operate all these effects which it is its nature to produce. It will in the first place make him incapable of accomplishing anything because of inner faction and lack of self-agreement, and then an enemy to himself and to the just. Is it not so? Yes. But, my friend, the gods too are just. Have it that they are, he said. So to the gods also, it seems, the unjust man will be hateful, but the just man dear. Revel in your discourse, he said, without fear, for I shall not oppose you, so as not to offend your partisans here. Fill up the measure of my feast, then, and complete it for me, I said, by continuing to answer as you have been doing. Now that the just appear to be wiser and better and more capable of action and the unjust incapable of any common action, and that if we ever say that any men who are unjust have vigorously combined to put something over, our statement is not altogether true, for they would not have kept their hands from one another if they had been thoroughly unjust, but it is obvious that there was in them some justice which prevented them from wronging at the same time one another too as well as those whom they attacked; and by dint of this they accomplished whatever they did and set out to do injustice only half corrupted by injustice, since utter rascals completely unjust are completely incapable of effective action—all this I understand to be the truth, and not what you originally laid down. But whether it is also true that the just have a better life than the unjust and are happier, which is the question we afterwards proposed for examination, is what we now have to consider. It appears even now that they are, I think, from what has already been said. But all the same we must examine it more carefully. For it is no ordinary matter that we are discussing, but the right conduct of life. Proceed with your inquiry, he said. I proceed, said I. Tell me then—would you say that a horse has a specific work or function? I would. Would you be willing to define the work of a horse or of anything else to be that which one can do only with it or best with it? I don’t understand, he replied. Well, take it this way: is there anything else with which you can see except the eyes? Certainly not. Again, could you hear with anything but ears? By no means. Would you not rightly say that these are the functions of these (organs)? By all means.

352e Ἔμοιγε.
Ἆρ' οὖν τοῦτο ἂν θείης καὶ ἵππου καὶ ἄλλου ὁτουοῦν
ἔργον, ἂν μόνῳ ἐκείνῳ ποιῇ τις ἄριστα;
Οὐ μανθάνω, ἔφη.
Ἀλλ' ὧδε· ἔσθ' ὅτῳ ἂν ἄλλῳ ἴδοις ὀφθαλμοῖς;
Οὐ δῆτα.
Τί δέ; ἀκούσαις ἄλλῳ ὠσίν;
Οὐδαμῶς.
Οὐκοῦν δικαίως [ἂν] ταῦτα τούτων φαμὲν ἔργα εἶναι;
Πάνυ γε.
353a Τί δέ; μαχαίρᾳ ἂν ἀμπέλου κλῆμα ἀποτέμοις καὶ σμίλῃ
καὶ ἄλλοις πολλοῖς;
Πῶς γὰρ οὔ;
Ἀλλ' οὐδενί γ' ἂν οἶμαι οὕτω καλῶς ὡς δρεπάνῳ τῷ ἐπὶ
τούτῳ ἐργασθέντι.
Ἀληθῆ.
Ἆρ' οὖν οὐ τοῦτο τούτου ἔργον θήσομεν;
Θήσομεν μὲν οὖν.
Νῦν δὴ οἶμαι ἄμεινον ἂν μάθοις ἄρτι ἠρώτων, πυνθανόμενος
εἰ οὐ τοῦτο ἑκάστου εἴη ἔργον ἂν μόνον τι
κάλλιστα τῶν ἄλλων ἀπεργάζηται.
Ἀλλά, ἔφη, μανθάνω τε καί μοι δοκεῖ τοῦτο ἑκάστου

Once more, you could use a dirk to trim vine branches and a knife and many other instruments. Certainly. But nothing so well, I take it, as a pruning-knife fashioned for this purpose. That is true. Must we not then assume this to be the work or function of that? We must.

353b πράγματος ἔργον εἶναι.
Εἶεν, ἦν δ' ἐγώ. οὐκοῦν καὶ ἀρετὴ δοκεῖ σοι εἶναι
ἑκάστῳ ᾧπερ καὶ ἔργον τι προστέτακται; ἴωμεν δὲ ἐπὶ τὰ
αὐτὰ πάλιν· ὀφθαλμῶν, φαμέν, ἔστι τι ἔργον;
Ἔστιν.
Ἆρ' οὖν καὶ ἀρετὴ ὀφθαλμῶν ἔστιν;
Καὶ ἀρετή.
Τί δέ; ὤτων ἦν τι ἔργον;
Ναί.
Οὐκοῦν καὶ ἀρετή;
Καὶ ἀρετή.
Τί δὲ πάντων πέρι τῶν ἄλλων; οὐχ οὕτω;
Οὕτω.
Ἔχε δή· ἆρ' ἄν ποτε ὄμματα τὸ αὑτῶν ἔργον καλῶς
353c ἀπεργάσαιντο μὴ ἔχοντα τὴν αὑτῶν οἰκείαν ἀρετήν, ἀλλ'
ἀντὶ τῆς ἀρετῆς κακίαν;
Καὶ πῶς ἄν; ἔφη· τυφλότητα γὰρ ἴσως λέγεις ἀντὶ τῆς
ὄψεως.
Ἥτις, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, αὐτῶν ἀρετή· οὐ γάρ πω τοῦτο
ἐρωτῶ, ἀλλ' εἰ τῇ οἰκείᾳ μὲν ἀρετῇ τὸ αὑτῶν ἔργον εὖ
ἐργάσεται τὰ ἐργαζόμενα, κακίᾳ δὲ κακῶς.
Ἀληθές, ἔφη, τοῦτό γε λέγεις.
Οὐκοῦν καὶ ὦτα στερόμενα τῆς αὑτῶν ἀρετῆς κακῶς τὸ
αὑτῶν ἔργον ἀπεργάσεται;
Πάνυ γε.
353d Τίθεμεν οὖν καὶ τἆλλα πάντα εἰς τὸν αὐτὸν λόγον;
Ἔμοιγε δοκεῖ.
Ἴθι δή, μετὰ ταῦτα τόδε σκέψαι. ψυχῆς ἔστιν τι ἔργον
ἄλλῳ τῶν ὄντων οὐδ' ἂν ἑνὶ πράξαις, οἷον τὸ τοιόνδε· τὸ
ἐπιμελεῖσθαι καὶ ἄρχειν καὶ βουλεύεσθαι καὶ τὰ τοιαῦτα
πάντα, ἔσθ' ὅτῳ ἄλλῳ ψυχῇ δικαίως ἂν αὐτὰ ἀποδοῖμεν
καὶ φαῖμεν ἴδια ἐκείνης εἶναι;
Οὐδενὶ ἄλλῳ.
Τί δ' αὖ τὸ ζῆν; οὐ ψυχῆς φήσομεν ἔργον εἶναι;
Μάλιστά γ', ἔφη.
Οὐκοῦν καὶ ἀρετήν φαμέν τινα ψυχῆς εἶναι;
Φαμέν.
353e Ἆρ' οὖν ποτε, Θρασύμαχε, ψυχὴ τὰ αὑτῆς ἔργα εὖ
ἀπεργάσεται στερομένη τῆς οἰκείας ἀρετῆς, ἀδύνατον;
Ἀδύνατον.
Ἀνάγκη ἄρα κακῇ ψυχῇ κακῶς ἄρχειν καὶ ἐπιμελεῖσθαι,
τῇ δὲ ἀγαθῇ πάντα ταῦτα εὖ πράττειν.
Ἀνάγκη.
Οὐκοῦν ἀρετήν γε συνεχωρήσαμεν ψυχῆς εἶναι δικαιοσύνην,
κακίαν δὲ ἀδικίαν;
Συνεχωρήσαμεν γάρ.
μὲν ἄρα δικαία ψυχὴ καὶ δίκαιος ἀνὴρ εὖ βιώσεται,
κακῶς δὲ ἄδικος.
Φαίνεται, ἔφη, κατὰ τὸν σὸν λόγον.
You will now, then, I fancy, better apprehend the meaning of my question when I asked whether that is not the work of a thing which it only or it better than anything else can perform. Well, he said, I do understand, and agree that the work of anything is that. Very good, said I. Do you not also think that there is a specific virtue or excellence of everything for which a specific work or function is appointed? Let us return to the same examples. The eyes we say have a function? They have. Is there also a virtue of the eyes? There is. And was there not a function of the ears? Yes. And so also a virtue? Also a virtue. And what of all other things? Is the case not the same? The same. Take note now. Could the eyes possibly fulfil their function well if they lacked their own proper excellence and had in its stead the defect? How could they? he said; for I presume you meant blindness instead of vision. Whatever, said I, the excellence may be. For I have not yet come to that question, but am only asking whether whatever operates will not do its own work well by its own virtue and badly by its own defect. That much, he said, you may affirm to be true. Then the ears, too, if deprived of their own virtue will do their work ill? Assuredly. And do we then apply the same principle to all things? I think so. Then next consider this. The soul, has it a work which you couldn’t accomplish with anything else in the world, as for example, management, rule, deliberation, and the like, is there anything else than soul to which you could rightly assign these and say that they were its peculiar work? Nothing else. And again life? Shall we say that too is the function of the soul? Most certainly, he said. And do we not also say that there is an excellence virtue of the soul? We do. Will the soul ever accomplish its own work well if deprived of its own virtue, or is this impossible? It is impossible. Of necessity, then, a bad soul will govern and manage things badly while the good soul will in all these things do well. Of necessity. And did we not agree that the excellence or virtue of soul is justice and its defect injustice? Yes, we did. The just soul and the just man then will live well and the unjust ill? So it appears, he said, by your reasoning.
354a Ἀλλὰ μὴν γε εὖ ζῶν μακάριός τε καὶ εὐδαίμων, δὲ μὴ
τἀναντία.
Πῶς γὰρ οὔ;
μὲν δίκαιος ἄρα εὐδαίμων, δ' ἄδικος ἄθλιος.
Ἔστω, ἔφη.
Ἀλλὰ μὴν ἄθλιόν γε εἶναι οὐ λυσιτελεῖ, εὐδαίμονα δέ.
Πῶς γὰρ οὔ;
Οὐδέποτ' ἄρα, μακάριε Θρασύμαχε, λυσιτελέστερον
ἀδικία δικαιοσύνης.
Ταῦτα δή σοι, ἔφη, Σώκρατες, εἱστιάσθω ἐν τοῖς
Βενδιδίοις.
Ὑπὸ σοῦ γε, ἦν δ' ἐγώ, Θρασύμαχε, ἐπειδή μοι πρᾷος
ἐγένου καὶ χαλεπαίνων ἐπαύσω. οὐ μέντοι καλῶς γε
354b εἱστίαμαι, δι' ἐμαυτὸν ἀλλ' οὐ διὰ σέ· ἀλλ' ὥσπερ οἱ
λίχνοι τοῦ ἀεὶ παραφερομένου ἀπογεύονται ἁρπάζοντες, πρὶν
τοῦ προτέρου μετρίως ἀπολαῦσαι, καὶ ἐγώ μοι δοκῶ οὕτω,
πρὶν τὸ πρῶτον ἐσκοποῦμεν εὑρεῖν, τὸ δίκαιον ὅτι ποτ'
ἐστίν, ἀφέμενος ἐκείνου ὁρμῆσαι ἐπὶ τὸ σκέψασθαι περὶ
αὐτοῦ εἴτε κακία ἐστὶν καὶ ἀμαθία, εἴτε σοφία καὶ ἀρετή, καὶ
ἐμπεσόντος αὖ ὕστερον λόγου, ὅτι λυσιτελέστερον ἀδικία
τῆς δικαιοσύνης, οὐκ ἀπεσχόμην τὸ μὴ οὐκ ἐπὶ τοῦτο ἐλθεῖν
ἀπ' ἐκείνου, ὥστε μοι νυνὶ γέγονεν ἐκ τοῦ διαλόγου μηδὲν
354c εἰδέναι· ὁπότε γὰρ τὸ δίκαιον μὴ οἶδα ἐστιν, σχολῇ εἴσομαι
εἴτε ἀρετή τις οὖσα τυγχάνει εἴτε καὶ οὔ, καὶ πότερον ἔχων
αὐτὸ οὐκ εὐδαίμων ἐστὶν εὐδαίμων.
But furthermore, he who lives well is blessed and happy, and he who does not the contrary. Of course. Then the just is happy and the unjust miserable. So be it, he said. But it surely does not pay to be miserable, but to be happy. Of course not. Never, then, most worshipful Thrasymachus, can injustice be more profitable than justice. Let this complete your entertainment, Socrates, at the festival of Bendis. A feast furnished by you, Thrasymachus, I said, now that you have become gentle with me and are no longer angry. I have not dined well, however— by my own fault, not yours. But just as gluttons snatch at every dish that is handed along and taste it before they have properly enjoyed the preceding, so I, methinks, before finding the first object of our inquiry—what justice is—let go of that and set out to consider something about it, namely whether it is vice and ignorance or wisdom and virtue; and again, when later the view was sprung upon us that injustice is more profitable than justice I could not refrain from turning to that from the other topic. So that for me the present outcome of the discussion is that I know nothing. For if I don’t know what the just is, I shall hardly know whether it is a virtue or not, and whether its possessor is or is not happy.