Burnet (OCT, 1907) · Bury (1926)
Bury (1926)
652a ΑΘ.Τὸ δὴ μετὰ τοῦτο, ὡς ἔοικε, σκεπτέον ἐκεῖνο περὶ
αὐτῶν, πότερα τοῦτο μόνον ἀγαθὸν ἔχει, τὸ κατιδεῖν πῶς
ἔχομεν τὰς φύσεις, καί τι μέγεθος ὠφελίας ἄξιον πολλῆς
σπουδῆς ἔνεστ' ἐν τῇ κατ' ὀρθὸν χρείᾳ τῆς ἐν οἴνῳ συνουσίας.
τί οὖν δὴ λέγομεν; ἔνεσθ', ὡς λόγος ἔοικεν βούλεσθαι
σημαίνειν· ὅπῃ δὲ καὶ ὅπως, ἀκούωμεν προσέχοντες
652b τὸν νοῦν, μή πῃ παραποδισθῶμεν ὑπ' αὐτοῦ.
Ath.In the next place, we probably ought to enquire, regarding this subject, whether the discerning of men’s natural dispositions is the only gain to be derived from the right use of wine-parties, or whether it entails benefits so great as to be worthy of serious consideration. What do we say about this? Our argument evidently tends to indicate that it does entail such benefits; so how and wherein it does so let us now hear, and that with minds attentive, lest haply we be led astray by it.
ΚΛ.Λέγ' οὖν.
Clin.Say on.
ΑΘ.Ἀναμνησθῆναι τοίνυν ἔγωγε πάλιν ἐπιθυμῶ τί ποτε
653a λέγομεν ἡμῖν εἶναι τὴν ὀρθὴν παιδείαν. τούτου γάρ, ὥς
γε ἐγὼ τοπάζω τὰ νῦν, ἔστιν ἐν τῷ ἐπιτηδεύματι τούτῳ
καλῶς κατορθουμένῳ σωτηρία.
Ath.I want us to call to mind again our definition of right education. For the safekeeping of this depends, as I now conjecture, upon the correct establishment of the institution mentioned.
ΚΛ.Μέγα λέγεις.
Clin.That is a strong statement!
ΑΘ.Λέγω τοίνυν τῶν παίδων παιδικὴν εἶναι πρώτην
αἴσθησιν ἡδονὴν καὶ λύπην, καὶ ἐν οἷς ἀρετὴ ψυχῇ καὶ
κακία παραγίγνεται πρῶτον, ταῦτ' εἶναι, φρόνησιν δὲ καὶ
ἀληθεῖς δόξας βεβαίους εὐτυχὲς ὅτῳ καὶ πρὸς τὸ γῆρας
παρεγένετο· τέλεος δ' οὖν ἔστ' ἄνθρωπος ταῦτα καὶ τὰ ἐν
653b τούτοις πάντα κεκτημένος ἀγαθά. παιδείαν δὴ λέγω τὴν
παραγιγνομένην πρῶτον παισὶν ἀρετήν· ἡδονὴ δὴ καὶ φιλία
καὶ λύπη καὶ μῖσος ἂν ὀρθῶς ἐν ψυχαῖς ἐγγίγνωνται μήπω
δυναμένων λόγῳ λαμβάνειν, λαβόντων δὲ τὸν λόγον, συμφωνήσωσι
τῷ λόγῳ ὀρθῶς εἰθίσθαι ὑπὸ τῶν προσηκόντων
ἐθῶν, αὕτη 'σθ' συμφωνία σύμπασα μὲν ἀρετή, τὸ δὲ
περὶ τὰς ἡδονὰς καὶ λύπας τεθραμμένον αὐτῆς ὀρθῶς ὥστε
653c μισεῖν μὲν χρὴ μισεῖν εὐθὺς ἐξ ἀρχῆς μέχρι τέλους,
στέργειν δὲ χρὴ στέργειν, τοῦτ' αὐτὸ ἀποτεμὼν τῷ λόγῳ
καὶ παιδείαν προσαγορεύων, κατά γε τὴν ἐμὴν ὀρθῶς ἂν
προσαγορεύοις.
Ath.What I state is this,—that in children the first childish sensations are pleasure and pain, and that it is in these first that goodness and badness come to the soul; but as to wisdom and settled true opinions, a man is lucky if they come to him even in old age and; he that is possessed of these blessings, and all that they comprise, is indeed a perfect man. I term, then, the goodness that first comes to children education. When pleasure and love, and pain and hatred, spring up rightly in the souls of those who are unable as yet to grasp a rational account; and when, after grasping the rational account, they consent thereunto that they have been rightly trained in fitting practices:—this consent, viewed as a whole, is goodness, while the part of it that is rightly trained in respect of pleasures and pains, so as to hate what ought to be hated, right from the beginning up to the very end, and to love what ought to be loved, if you were to mark this part off in your definition and call it education, you would be giving it, in my opinion, its right name.
ΚΛ.Καὶ γάρ, ξένε, ἡμῖν καὶ τὰ πρότερον ὀρθῶς σοι
παιδείας πέρι καὶ τὰ νῦν εἰρῆσθαι δοκεῖ.
Clin.You are quite right, Stranger, as it seems to us, both in what you said before and in what you say now about education.
ΑΘ.Καλῶς τοίνυν. τούτων γὰρ δὴ τῶν ὀρθῶς τεθραμμένων
ἡδονῶν καὶ λυπῶν παιδειῶν οὐσῶν χαλᾶται τοῖς
ἀνθρώποις καὶ διαφθείρεται κατὰ πολλὰ ἐν τῷ βίῳ, θεοὶ
653d δὲ οἰκτίραντες τὸ τῶν ἀνθρώπων ἐπίπονον πεφυκὸς γένος,
ἀναπαύλας τε αὐτοῖς τῶν πόνων ἐτάξαντο τὰς τῶν ἑορτῶν
ἀμοιβὰς τοῖς θεοῖς, καὶ Μούσας Ἀπόλλωνά τε μουσηγέτην
καὶ Διόνυσον συνεορταστὰς ἔδοσαν, ἵν' ἐπανορθῶνται, τάς
τε τροφὰς γενομένας ἐν ταῖς ἑορταῖς μετὰ θεῶν. ὁρᾶν
χρὴ πότερον ἀληθὴς ἡμῖν κατὰ φύσιν λόγος ὑμνεῖται τὰ
νῦν, πῶς. φησὶν δὲ τὸ νέον ἅπαν ὡς ἔπος εἰπεῖν τοῖς
τε σώμασι καὶ ταῖς φωναῖς ἡσυχίαν ἄγειν οὐ δύνασθαι,
653e κινεῖσθαι δὲ ἀεὶ ζητεῖν καὶ φθέγγεσθαι, τὰ μὲν ἁλλόμενα
καὶ σκιρτῶντα, οἷον ὀρχούμενα μεθ' ἡδονῆς καὶ προσπαίζοντα,
τὰ δὲ φθεγγόμενα πάσας φωνάς. τὰ μὲν οὖν ἄλλα
ζῷα οὐκ ἔχειν αἴσθησιν τῶν ἐν ταῖς κινήσεσιν τάξεων οὐδὲ
ἀταξιῶν, οἷς δὴ ῥυθμὸς ὄνομα καὶ ἁρμονία· ἡμῖν δὲ οὓς
654a εἴπομεν τοὺς θεοὺς συγχορευτὰς δεδόσθαι, τούτους εἶναι καὶ
τοὺς δεδωκότας τὴν ἔνρυθμόν τε καὶ ἐναρμόνιον αἴσθησιν
μεθ' ἡδονῆς, δὴ κινεῖν τε ἡμᾶς καὶ χορηγεῖν ἡμῶν τούτους,
ᾠδαῖς τε καὶ ὀρχήσεσιν ἀλλήλοις συνείροντας, χορούς τε
ὠνομακέναι παρὰ τὸ τῆς χαρᾶς ἔμφυτον ὄνομα. πρῶτον
δὴ τοῦτο ἀποδεξώμεθα; θῶμεν παιδείαν εἶναι πρώτην διὰ
Μουσῶν τε καὶ Ἀπόλλωνος, πῶς;
Ath.Very good. Now these forms of child-training, which consist in right discipline in pleasures and pains, grow slack and weakened to a great extent in the course of men’s lives; so the gods, in pity for the human race thus born to misery, have ordained the feasts of thanksgiving as periods of respite from their troubles; and they have granted them as companions in their feasts the Muses and Apollo the master of music, and Dionysus, that they may at least set right again their modes of discipline by associating in their feasts with gods. We must consider, then, whether the account that is harped on nowadays is true to nature? What it says is that, almost without exception, every young creature is able of keeping either its body or its tongue quiet, and is always striving to move and to cry, leaping and skipping and delighting in dances and games, and uttering, also, noises of every description.

Now, whereas all other creatures are devoid of any perception of the various kinds of order and disorder in movement (which we term rhythm and harmony), to men the very gods, who were given, as we said, to be our fellows in the dance, have granted the pleasurable perception of rhythm and harmony, whereby they cause us to move and lead our choirs, linking us one with another by means of songs and dances; and to the choir they have given its name from the cheer implanted therein. Shall we accept this account to begin with, and postulate that education owes its origin to Apollo and the Muses?

ΚΛ.Οὕτως.
Clin.Yes.
ΑΘ.Οὐκοῦν μὲν ἀπαίδευτος ἀχόρευτος ἡμῖν ἔσται, τὸν
654b δὲ πεπαιδευμένον ἱκανῶς κεχορευκότα θετέον;
Ath.Shall we assume that the uneducated man is without choir-training, and the educated man fully choir-trained?
ΚΛ.Τί μήν;
Clin.Certainly.
ΑΘ.Χορεία γε μὴν ὄρχησίς τε καὶ ᾠδὴ τὸ σύνολόν
ἐστιν.
Ath.Choir-training, as a whole, embraces of course both dancing and song.
ΚΛ.Ἀναγκαῖον.
Clin.Undoubtedly.
ΑΘ. καλῶς ἄρα πεπαιδευμένος ᾄδειν τε καὶ ὀρχεῖσθαι
δυνατὸς ἂν εἴη καλῶς.
Ath.So the well-educated man will be able both to sing and dance well.
ΚΛ.Ἔοικεν.
Clin.Evidently.
ΑΘ.Ἴδωμεν δὴ τί ποτ' ἐστὶ τὸ νῦν αὖ λεγόμενον.
Ath.Let us now consider what this last statement of ours implies.
ΚΛ.Τὸ ποῖον δή;
Clin.Which statement?
ΑΘ."Καλῶς ᾄδει," φαμέν, "καὶ καλῶς ὀρχεῖταιπότερον
654c "εἰ καὶ καλὰ ᾄδει καὶ καλὰ ὀρχεῖται" προσθῶμεν μή;
Ath.Our words are,—he sings well and dances well: ought we, or ought we not, to add,—provided that he sings good songs and dances good dances?
ΚΛ.Προσθῶμεν.
Clin.We ought to add this.
ΑΘ.Τί δ' ἂν τὰ καλά τε ἡγούμενος εἶναι καλὰ καὶ τὰ
αἰσχρὰ αἰσχρὰ οὕτως αὐτοῖς χρῆται; βέλτιον τοιοῦτος
πεπαιδευμένος ἡμῖν ἔσται τὴν χορείαν τε καὶ μουσικὴν
ὃς ἂν τῷ μὲν σώματι καὶ τῇ φωνῇ τὸ διανοηθὲν εἶναι καλὸν
ἱκανῶς ὑπηρετεῖν δυνηθῇ ἑκάστοτε, χαίρῃ δὲ μὴ τοῖς καλοῖς
μηδὲ μισῇ τὰ μὴ καλά; 'κεῖνος ὃς ἂν τῇ μὲν φωνῇ καὶ
654d τῷ σώματι μὴ πάνυ δυνατὸς κατορθοῦν, διανοεῖσθαι, τῇ
δὲ ἡδονῇ καὶ λύπῃ κατορθοῖ, τὰ μὲν ἀσπαζόμενος, ὅσα καλά,
τὰ δὲ δυσχεραίνων, ὁπόσα μὴ καλά;
Ath.How then, if a man takes the good for good and the bad for bad and treats them accordingly? Shall we regard such a man as better trained in choristry and music when he is always able both with gesture and voice to represent adequately that which he conceives to be good, though he feels neither delight in the good nor hatred of the bad,—or when, though not wholly able to represent his conception rightly by voice and gesture, he yet keeps right in his feelings of pain and pleasure, welcoming everything good and abhorring everything not good.
ΚΛ.Πολὺ τὸ διαφέρον, ξένε, λέγεις τῆς παιδείας.
Clin.There is a vast difference between the two cases, Stranger, in point of education.
ΑΘ.Οὐκοῦν εἰ μὲν τὸ καλὸν ᾠδῆς τε καὶ ὀρχήσεως πέρι
γιγνώσκομεν τρεῖς ὄντες, ἴσμεν καὶ τὸν πεπαιδευμένον τε καὶ
ἀπαίδευτον ὀρθῶς· εἰ δὲ ἀγνοοῦμέν γε τοῦτο, οὐδ' εἴ τις
παιδείας ἐστὶν φυλακὴ καὶ ὅπου διαγιγνώσκειν ἄν ποτε
654e δυναίμεθα. ἆρ' οὐχ οὕτως;
Ath.If, then, we three understand what constitutes goodness in respect of dance and song, we also know who is and who is not rightly educated but without this knowledge we shall never be able to discern whether there exists any safeguard for education or where it is to be found. Is not that so?
ΚΛ.Οὕτω μὲν οὖν.
Clin.It is.
ΑΘ.Ταῦτ' ἄρα μετὰ τοῦθ' ἡμῖν αὖ καθάπερ κυσὶν ἰχνευούσαις
διερευνητέον, σχῆμά τε καλὸν καὶ μέλος καὶ ᾠδὴν
καὶ ὄρχησιν· εἰ δὲ ταῦθ' ἡμᾶς διαφυγόντα οἰχήσεται, μάταιος
μετὰ ταῦθ' ἡμῖν περὶ παιδείας ὀρθῆς εἴθ' Ἑλληνικῆς εἴτε
βαρβαρικῆς λόγος ἂν εἴη.
Ath.What we have next to track down, like hounds on the trail, is goodness of posture and tunes in relation to song and dance; if this eludes our pursuit, it will be in vain for us to discourse further concerning right education, whether of Greeks or of barbarians.
ΚΛ.Ναί.
Clin.Yes.
ΑΘ.Εἶεν· τί δὲ δὴ τὸ καλὸν χρὴ φάναι σχῆμα μέλος
εἶναί ποτε; φέρε, ἀνδρικῆς ψυχῆς ἐν πόνοις ἐχομένης καὶ
655a δειλῆς ἐν τοῖς αὐτοῖς τε καὶ ἴσοις ἆρ' ὅμοια τά τε σχήματα
καὶ τὰ φθέγματα συμβαίνει γίγνεσθαι;
Ath.Well then, however shall we define goodness of posture or of tune? Come, consider: when a manly soul is beset by troubles, and a cowardly soul by troubles identical and equal, are the postures and utterances that result in the two cases similar?
ΚΛ.Καὶ πῶς, ὅτε γε μηδὲ τὰ χρώματα;
Clin.How could they be, when even their complexions differ in color?
ΑΘ.Καλῶς γε, ἑταῖρε. ἀλλ' ἐν γὰρ μουσικῇ καὶ
σχήματα μὲν καὶ μέλη ἔνεστιν, περὶ ῥυθμὸν καὶ ἁρμονίαν
οὔσης τῆς μουσικῆς, ὥστε εὔρυθμον μὲν καὶ εὐάρμοστον,
εὔχρων δὲ μέλος σχῆμα οὐκ ἔστιν ἀπεικάσαντα, ὥσπερ
οἱ χοροδιδάσκαλοι ἀπεικάζουσιν, ὀρθῶς φθέγγεσθαι· τὸ δὲ
τοῦ δειλοῦ τε καὶ ἀνδρείου σχῆμα μέλος ἔστιν τε, καὶ
655b ὀρθῶς προσαγορεύειν ἔχει τὰ μὲν τῶν ἀνδρείων καλά, τὰ
τῶν δειλῶν δὲ αἰσχρά. καὶ ἵνα δὴ μὴ μακρολογία πολλή
τις γίγνηται περὶ ταῦθ' ἡμῖν ἅπαντα, ἁπλῶς ἔστω τὰ μὲν
ἀρετῆς ἐχόμενα ψυχῆς σώματος, εἴτε αὐτῆς εἴτε τινὸς
εἰκόνος, σύμπαντα σχήματά τε καὶ μέλη καλά, τὰ δὲ κακίας
αὖ, τοὐναντίον ἅπαν.
Ath.Well said, my friend. But in, fact, while postures and tunes do exist in music, which deals with rhythm and harmony, so that one can rightly speak of a tune or posture being rhythmical or harmonious, one cannot rightly apply the choir masters metaphor well-colored to tune and posture; but one can use this language about the posture and tune of the brave man and the coward, and one is right in calling those of the brave man good, and those of the coward bad. To avoid a tediously long disquisition, let us sum up the whole matter by saying that the postures and tunes which attach to goodness of soul or body, or to some image thereof, are universally good, while those which attach to badness are exactly the reverse.
ΚΛ.Ὀρθῶς τε προκαλῇ καὶ ταῦθ' ἡμῖν οὕτως ἔχειν
ἀποκεκρίσθω τὰ νῦν.
Clin.Your pronouncement is correct, and we now formally endorse it.
ΑΘ.Ἔτι δὴ τόδε· πότερον ἅπαντες πάσαις χορείαις
655c ὁμοίως χαίρομεν, πολλοῦ δεῖ;
Ath.Another point:—do we all delight equally in choral dancing, or far from equally?
ΚΛ.Τοῦ παντὸς μὲν οὖν.
Clin.Very far indeed.
ΑΘ.Τί ποτ' ἂν οὖν λέγομεν τὸ πεπλανηκὸς ἡμᾶς εἶναι;
πότερον οὐ ταὐτά ἐστι καλὰ ἡμῖν πᾶσιν, τὰ μὲν αὐτά,
ἀλλ' οὐ δοκεῖ ταὐτὰ εἶναι; οὐ γάρ που ἐρεῖ γέ τις ὥς ποτε
τὰ τῆς κακίας ἀρετῆς καλλίονα χορεύματα, οὐδ' ὡς αὐτὸς
μὲν χαίρει τοῖς τῆς μοχθηρίας σχήμασιν, οἱ δ' ἄλλοι ἐναντίᾳ
ταύτης Μούσῃ τινί· καίτοι λέγουσίν γε οἱ πλεῖστοι μουσικῆς
655d ὀρθότητα εἶναι τὴν ἡδονὴν ταῖς ψυχαῖς πορίζουσαν
δύναμιν. ἀλλὰ τοῦτο μὲν οὔτε ἀνεκτὸν οὔτε ὅσιον τὸ
παράπαν φθέγγεσθαι, τόδε δὲ μᾶλλον εἰκὸς πλανᾶν ἡμᾶς.
Ath.Then what are we to suppose it is that misleads us? Is it the fact that we do not all regard as good the same things, or is it that, although they are the same, they are thought not to be the same? For surely no one will maintain that the choric performance of vice are better than those of virtue, or that he himself enjoys the postures of turpitude, while all others delight in music of the opposite kind. Most people, however, assert that the value of music consists in its power of affording pleasure to the soul. But such an assertion is quite intolerable, and it is blasphemy even to utter it. The fact which misleads us is more probably the following—
ΚΛ.Τὸ ποῖον;
Clin.What?
ΑΘ.Ἐπειδὴ μιμήματα τρόπων ἐστὶ τὰ περὶ τὰς χορείας,
ἐν πράξεσί τε παντοδαπαῖς γιγνόμενα καὶ τύχαις, καὶ ἤθεσι
καὶ μιμήσεσι διεξιόντων ἑκάστων, οἷς μὲν ἂν πρὸς τρόπου
τὰ ῥηθέντα μελῳδηθέντα καὶ ὁπωσοῦν χορευθέντα,
655e κατὰ φύσιν κατὰ ἔθος κατ' ἀμφότερα, τούτους μὲν καὶ
τούτοις χαίρειν τε καὶ ἐπαινεῖν αὐτὰ καὶ προσαγορεύειν
καλὰ ἀναγκαῖον, οἷς δ' ἂν παρὰ φύσιν τρόπον τινα
συνήθειαν, οὔτε χαίρειν δυνατὸν οὔτε ἐπαινεῖν αἰσχρά τε
προσαγορεύειν. οἷς δ' ἂν τὰ μὲν τῆς φύσεως ὀρθὰ συμβαίνῃ,
τὰ δὲ τῆς συνηθείας ἐναντία, τὰ μὲν τῆς συνηθείας
ὀρθά, τὰ δὲ τῆς φύσεως ἐναντία, οὗτοι δὲ ταῖς ἡδοναῖς
656a τοὺς ἐπαίνους ἐναντίους προσαγορεύουσιν· ἡδέα γὰρ τούτων
ἕκαστα εἶναί φασι, πονηρὰ δέ, καὶ ἐναντίον ἄλλων οὓς
οἴονται φρονεῖν αἰσχύνονται μὲν κινεῖσθαι τῷ σώματι τὰ
τοιαῦτα, αἰσχύνονται δὲ ᾄδειν ὡς ἀποφαινόμενοι καλὰ μετὰ
σπουδῆς, χαίρουσιν δὲ παρ' αὑτοῖς.
Ath.Inasmuch as choric performances are representations of character, exhibited in actions and circumstances of every kind, in which, the several performers enact their parts by habit and imitative art, whenever the choric performances are congenial to them in point of diction, tune or other features (whether from natural bent or from habit, or from all these causes combined), then these performers invariably delight in such, performances and extol them as excellent; whereas those who find them repugnant to their nature, disposition or habits cannot possibly delight in them or praise them, but call them bad.

And when men are right in their natural tastes but wrong in those acquired by habituation, or right in the latter but wrong in the former, then by their expressions of praise they convey the opposite of their real sentiments; for whereas they say of a performance that it is pleasant but bad, and feel ashamed to indulge in such bodily motions before men whose wisdom they respect, or to sing such songs (as though they seriously approved of them), they really take a delight in them in private.

ΚΛ.Ὀρθότατα λέγεις.
Clin.Very true.
ΑΘ.Μῶν οὖν τι βλάβην ἔσθ' ἥντινα φέρει τῷ χαίροντι
πονηρίας σχήμασιν μέλεσιν, τιν' ὠφελίαν αὖ τοῖς
πρὸς τἀναντία τὰς ἡδονὰς ἀποδεχομένοις;
Ath.Does the man who delights in bad postures and tunes suffer any damage thereby, or do those who take pleasure in the opposite gain therefrom any benefit?
ΚΛ.Εἰκός γε.
Clin.Probably.
656b ΑΘ.Πότερον εἰκὸς καὶ ἀναγκαῖον ταὐτὸν εἶναι ὅπερ
ὅταν τις πονηροῖς ἤθεσιν συνὼν κακῶν ἀνθρώπων μὴ μισῇ,
χαίρῃ δὲ ἀποδεχόμενος, ψέγῃ δὲ ὡς ἐν παιδιᾶς μοίρᾳ, ὀνειρώττων
αὐτοῦ τὴν μοχθηρίαν; τότε ὁμοιοῦσθαι δήπου ἀνάγκη
τὸν χαίροντα ὁποτέροις ἂν χαίρῃ, ἐὰν ἄρα καὶ ἐπαινεῖν
αἰσχύνηται· καίτοι τοῦ τοιούτου τί μεῖζον ἀγαθὸν κακὸν
φαῖμεν ἂν ἡμῖν ἐκ πάσης ἀνάγκης γίγνεσθαι;
Ath.Is it not probable or rather inevitable that the result here will be exactly the same as what takes place when a man who is living amongst the bad habits of wicked men, though he does not really abhor but rather accepts and delights in those habits, yet censures them casually, as though dimly aware of his own turpitude? In such a case it is, to be sure, inevitable that the man thus delighted becomes assimilated to those habits, good or bad, in which he delights, even though he is ashamed to praise them. Yet what blessing could we name, or what curse, greater than that of assimilation which befalls us so inevitably?
ΚΛ.Δοκῶ μὲν οὐδέν.
Clin.There is none, I believe.
656c ΑΘ.Ὅπου δὴ νόμοι καλῶς εἰσι κείμενοι καὶ εἰς τὸν
ἔπειτα χρόνον ἔσονται τὴν περὶ τὰς Μούσας παιδείαν τε
καὶ παιδιάν, οἰόμεθα ἐξέσεσθαι τοῖς ποιητικοῖς, ὅτιπερ ἂν
αὐτὸν τὸν ποιητὴν ἐν τῇ ποιήσει τέρπῃ ῥυθμοῦ μέλους
ῥήματος ἐχόμενον, τοῦτο διδάσκοντα καὶ τοὺς τῶν εὐνόμων
παῖδας καὶ νέους ἐν τοῖς χοροῖς, ὅτι ἂν τύχῃ ἀπεργάζεσθαι
πρὸς ἀρετὴν μοχθηρίαν;
Ath.Now where laws are, or will be in the future, rightly laid down regarding musical education and recreation, do we imagine that poets will be granted such licence that they may teach whatever form of rhythm or tune they best like themselves to the children of law-abiding citizens and the young men in the choirs, no matter what the result may be in the way of virtue or depravity?
ΚΛ.Οὔτοι δὴ τοῦτό γε λόγον ἔχει· πῶς γὰρ ἄν;
Clin.That would be unreasonable, most certainly.
656d ΑΘ.Νῦν δέ γε αὐτὸ ὡς ἔπος εἰπεῖν ἐν πάσαις ταῖς
πόλεσιν ἔξεστι δρᾶν, πλὴν κατ' Αἴγυπτον.
Ath.But at present this licence is allowed in practically every State, with the exception of Egypt.
ΚΛ.Ἐν Αἰγύπτῳ δὲ δὴ πῶς τὸ τοιοῦτον φῂς νενομοθετῆσθαι;
Clin.How, then, does the law stand in Egypt?
ΑΘ.Θαῦμα καὶ ἀκοῦσαι. πάλαι γὰρ δή ποτε, ὡς ἔοικεν,
ἐγνώσθη παρ' αὐτοῖς οὗτος λόγος ὃν τὰ νῦν λέγομεν ἡμεῖς,
ὅτι καλὰ μὲν σχήματα, καλὰ δὲ μέλη δεῖ μεταχειρίζεσθαι
ταῖς συνηθείαις τοὺς ἐν ταῖς πόλεσιν νέους· ταξάμενοι δὲ
ταῦτα, ἅττα ἐστὶ καὶ ὁποῖ' ἄττα ἀπέφηναν ἐν τοῖς ἱεροῖς,
656e καὶ παρὰ ταῦτ' οὐκ ἐξῆν οὔτε ζωγράφοις, οὔτ' ἄλλοις ὅσοι
σχήματα καὶ ὁποῖ' ἄττα ἀπεργάζονται, καινοτομεῖν οὐδ'
ἐπινοεῖν ἄλλ' ἄττα τὰ πάτρια, οὐδὲ νῦν ἔξεστιν, οὔτε ἐν
τούτοις οὔτε ἐν μουσικῇ συμπάσῃ. σκοπῶν δὲ εὑρήσεις
αὐτόθι τὰ μυριοστὸν ἔτος γεγραμμένα τετυπωμέναοὐχ
ὡς ἔπος εἰπεῖν μυριοστὸν ἀλλ' ὄντωςτῶν νῦν δεδημιουργημένων
657a οὔτε τι καλλίονα οὔτ' αἰσχίω, τὴν αὐτὴν δὲ τέχνην
ἀπειργασμένα.
Ath.It is marvellous, even in the telling. It appears that long ago they determined on the rule of which we are now speaking, that the youth of a State should practise in their rehearsals postures and tunes that are good: these they prescribed in detail and posted up in the temples, and outside this official list it was, and still is, forbidden to painters and all other producers of postures and representations to introduce any innovation or invention, whether in such productions or in any other branch of music, over and above the traditional forms.

And if you look there, you will find that the things depicted or graven there 10,000 years ago (I mean what I say, not loosely but literally 10,000) are no whit better or worse than the productions of today, but wrought with the same art.

ΚΛ.Θαυμαστὸν λέγεις.
Clin.A marvellous state of affairs!
ΑΘ.Νομοθετικὸν μὲν οὖν καὶ πολιτικὸν ὑπερβαλλόντως.
ἀλλ' ἕτερα φαῦλ' ἂν εὕροις αὐτόθι· τοῦτο δ' οὖν τὸ περὶ
μουσικὴν ἀληθές τε καὶ ἄξιον ἐννοίας, ὅτι δυνατὸν ἄρ' ἦν
περὶ τῶν τοιούτων νομοθετεῖσθαι βεβαίως θαρροῦντα μέλη
τὰ τὴν ὀρθότητα φύσει παρεχόμενα. τοῦτο δὲ θεοῦ θείου
τινὸς ἀνδρὸς ἂν εἴη, καθάπερ ἐκεῖ φασιν τὰ τὸν πολὺν τοῦτον
657b σεσωμένα χρόνον μέλη τῆς Ἴσιδος ποιήματα γεγονέναι.
ὥσθ', ὅπερ ἔλεγον, εἰ δύναιτό τις ἑλεῖν αὐτῶν καὶ ὁπωσοῦν
τὴν ὀρθότητα, θαρροῦντα χρὴ εἰς νόμον ἄγειν καὶ τάξιν αὐτά·
ὡς τῆς ἡδονῆς καὶ λύπης ζήτησις τοῦ καινῇ ζητεῖν ἀεὶ
μουσικῇ χρῆσθαι σχεδὸν οὐ μεγάλην τινὰ δύναμιν ἔχει
πρὸς τὸ διαφθεῖραι τὴν καθιερωθεῖσαν χορείαν ἐπικαλοῦσα
ἀρχαιότητα. τὴν γοῦν ἐκεῖ οὐδαμῶς ἔοικε δυνατὴ γεγονέναι
διαφθεῖραι, πᾶν δὲ τοὐναντίον.
Ath.Say rather, worthy in the highest degree of a statesman and a legislator. Still, you would find in Egypt other things that are bad. This, however, is a true and noteworthy fact, that as regards music it has proved possible for the tunes which possess a natural correctness to be enacted by law and permanently consecrated. To effect this would be the task of a god or a godlike man,—even as in Egypt they say that the tunes preserved throughout all this lapse of time are the compositions of Isis. Hence, as I said, if one could by any means succeed in grasping no principle of correctness in tune, one might then with confidence reduce them to legal form and prescription, since the tendency of pleasure and pain to indulge constantly in fresh music has, after all, no very great power to corrupt choric forms that are consecrated, by merely scoffing at them as antiquated. In Egypt, at any rate, it seems to have had no such power of corrupting,—in fact, quite the reverse.
657c ΚΛ.Φαίνεται οὕτως ἂν ταῦτα ἔχειν ἐκ τῶν ὑπὸ σοῦ τὰ
νῦν λεχθέντων.
Clin.Such would evidently be the case, judging from what you now say.
ΑΘ.Ἆρ' οὖν θαρροῦντες λέγομεν τὴν τῇ μουσικῇ καὶ τῇ
παιδιᾷ μετὰ χορείας χρείαν ὀρθὴν εἶναι τοιῷδέ τινι τρόπῳ;
χαίρομεν ὅταν οἰώμεθα εὖ πράττειν, καὶ ὁπόταν χαίρωμεν,
οἰόμεθα εὖ πράττειν αὖ; μῶν οὐχ οὕτως;
Ath.May we confidently describe the correct method in music and play, in connection with choristry, in some such terms as this: we rejoice whenever we think we are prospering, and, conversely, whenever we rejoice we think we are prospering? Is not that so?
ΚΛ.Οὕτω μὲν οὖν.
Clin.Yes, that is so.
ΑΘ.Καὶ μὴν ἔν γε τῷ τοιούτῳ, χαίροντες, ἡσυχίαν οὐ
δυνάμεθα ἄγειν.
Ath.Moreover, when in this state of joy we are unable to keep still.
ΚΛ.Ἔστι ταῦτα.
Clin.True.
657d ΑΘ.Ἆρ' οὖν οὐχ ἡμῶν οἱ μὲν νέοι αὐτοὶ χορεύειν ἕτοιμοι,
τὸ δὲ τῶν πρεσβυτέρων ἡμῶν ἐκείνους αὖ θεωροῦντες διάγειν
ἡγούμεθα πρεπόντως, χαίροντες τῇ ἐκείνων παιδιᾷ τε καὶ
ἑορτάσει, ἐπειδὴ τὸ παρ' ἡμῖν ἡμᾶς ἐλαφρὸν ἐκλείπει νῦν,
ποθοῦντες καὶ ἀσπαζόμενοι τίθεμεν οὕτως ἀγῶνας τοῖς δυναμένοις
ἡμᾶς ὅτι μάλιστ' εἰς τὴν νεότητα μνήμῃ ἐπεγείρειν;
Ath.Now while our young men are fitted for actually dancing themselves, we elders regard ourselves as suitably employed in looking on at them, and enjoying their sport and merrymaking, now that our former nimbleness is leaving us; and it is our yearning regret for this that causes us to propose such contests for those who can best arouse in us through recollection, the dormant emotions of youth.
ΚΛ.Ἀληθέστατα.
Clin.Very true.
ΑΘ.Μῶν οὖν οἰόμεθα καὶ κομιδῇ μάτην τὸν νῦν λεγόμενον
657e λόγον περὶ τῶν ἑορταζόντων λέγειν τοὺς πολλούς, ὅτι
τοῦτον δεῖ σοφώτατον ἡγεῖσθαι καὶ κρίνειν νικᾶν, ὃς ἂν
ἡμᾶς εὐφραίνεσθαι καὶ χαίρειν ὅτι μάλιστα ἀπεργάζηται;
δεῖ γὰρ δή, ἐπείπερ ἀφείμεθά γε παίζειν ἐν τοῖς τοιούτοις,
τὸν πλείστους καὶ μάλιστα χαίρειν ποιοῦντα, τοῦτον μάλιστα
τιμᾶσθαί τε, καὶ ὅπερ εἶπον νυνδή, τὰ νικητήρια φέρειν.
658a ἆρ' οὐκ ὀρθῶς λέγεταί τε τοῦτο καὶ πράττοιτ' ἄν, εἰ ταύτῃ
γίγνοιτο;
Ath.Thus we shall not dismiss as entirely groundless the opinion now commonly expressed about merrymakers,—namely, that he who best succeeds in giving us joy and pleasure should be counted the most skilful and be awarded the prize. For, seeing that we give ourselves up on such occasions of recreation, surely the highest honor and the prize of victory, as I said just now, should be awarded to the performer who affords the greatest enjoyment to the greatest number.

Is not this the right view, and the right mode of action too, supposing it were carried out?

ΚΛ.Τάχ' ἄν.
Clin.Possibly.
ΑΘ.Ἀλλ', μακάριε, μὴ ταχὺ τὸ τοιοῦτον κρίνωμεν,
ἀλλὰ διαιροῦντες αὐτὸ κατὰ μέρη σκοπώμεθα τοιῷδέ τινι
τρόπῳ· τί ἄν, εἴ ποτέ τις οὕτως ἁπλῶς ἀγῶνα θείη ὁντινοῦν,
μηδὲν ἀφορίσας μήτε γυμνικὸν μήτε μουσικὸν μήθ' ἱππικόν,
ἀλλὰ πάντας συναγαγὼν τοὺς ἐν τῇ πόλει προείποι, θεὶς
νικητήρια, τὸν βουλόμενον ἥκειν ἀγωνιούμενον ἡδονῆς πέρι
658b μόνον, ὃς δ' ἂν τέρψῃ τοὺς θεατὰς μάλιστα, μηδὲν ἐπιταττόμενος
ᾧτινι τρόπῳ, νικήσῃ δὲ αὐτὸ τοῦτο ὅτι μάλιστα
ἀπεργασάμενος καὶ κριθῇ τῶν ἀγωνισαμένων ἥδιστος γεγονέναιτί
ποτ' ἂν ἡγούμεθα ἐκ ταύτης τῆς προρρήσεως
συμβαίνειν;
Ath.But, my dear sir, we must not decide this matter hastily; rather we must analyze it thoroughly and examine it in some such fashion as this: suppose a man were to organize a competition, without qualifying or limiting it to gymnastic, musical or equestrian sports; and suppose that he should assemble the whole population of the State and, proclaiming that this is purely a pleasure-contest in which anyone who chooses may compete, should offer a prize to the competitor who gives the greatest amusement to the spectators,— without any restrictions as to the methods employed,—and who excels others just in doing this in the highest possible degree, and is adjudged the most pleasure-giving of the competitors: what do we suppose would be the effect of such a proclamation?
ΚΛ.Τοῦ πέρι λέγεις;
Clin.In what respect do you mean?
ΑΘ.Εἰκός που τὸν μέν τινα ἐπιδεικνύναι, καθάπερ
Ὅμηρος, ῥαψῳδίαν, ἄλλον δὲ κιθαρῳδίαν, τὸν δέ τινα τραγῳδίαν,
τὸν δ' αὖ κωμῳδίαν, οὐ θαυμαστὸν δὲ εἴ τις καὶ
658c θαύματα ἐπιδεικνὺς μάλιστ' ἂν νικᾶν ἡγοῖτο· τούτων δὴ
τοιούτων καὶ ἑτέρων ἀγωνιστῶν μυρίων ἐλθόντων ἔχομεν
εἰπεῖν τίς ἂν νικῷ δικαίως;
Ath.The natural result would be that one man would, like Homer, show up a rhapsody, another a harp-song, one a tragedy and another a comedy; nor should we be surprised if someone were even to fancy that he had the best chance of winning with a puppet-show. So where such as these and thousands others enter the competition, can we say who will deserve to win the prize?
ΚΛ.Ἄτοπον ἤρου· τίς γὰρ ἂν ἀποκρίνοιτό σοι τοῦτο ὡς
γνοὺς ἄν ποτε πρὶν ἀκοῦσαί τε, καὶ τῶν ἀθλητῶν ἑκάστων
αὐτήκοος αὐτὸς γενέσθαι;
Clin.An absurd question; for who could possibly pretend to know the answer before he had himself actually heard each of the competitors?
ΑΘ.Τί οὖν δή; βούλεσθε ἐγὼ σφῷν τὴν ἄτοπον ἀπόκρισιν
ταύτην ἀποκρίνωμαι;
Ath.Very well, then; do you wish me to supply you with the answer to this absurd question?
ΚΛ.Τί μήν;
Clin.By all means.
ΑΘ.Εἰ μὲν τοίνυν τὰ πάνυ σμικρὰ κρίνοι παιδία, κρινοῦσιν
τὸν τὰ θαύματα ἐπιδεικνύντα· γάρ;
Ath.If the tiniest children are to be the judges, they will award the prize to the showman of puppets, will they not?
658d ΚΛ.Πῶς γὰρ οὔ;
Clin.Certainly they will.
ΑΘ.Ἐὰν δέ γ' οἱ μείζους παῖδες, τὸν τὰς κωμῳδίας·
τραγῳδίαν δὲ αἵ τε πεπαιδευμέναι τῶν γυναικῶν καὶ τὰ νέα
μειράκια καὶ σχεδὸν ἴσως τὸ πλῆθος πάντων.
Ath.And older lads to the exhibitor of comedies; while the educated women and the young men, and the mass of the people in general, will award it to the shower of tragedies.
ΚΛ.Ἴσως δῆτα.
Clin.Most probably.
ΑΘ.Ῥαψῳδὸν δέ, καλῶς Ἰλιάδα καὶ Ὀδύσσειαν τι
τῶν Ἡσιοδείων διατιθέντα, τάχ' ἂν ἡμεῖς οἱ γέροντες ἥδιστα
ἀκούσαντες νικᾶν ἂν φαῖμεν πάμπολυ. τίς οὖν ὀρθῶς ἂν
νενικηκὼς εἴη; τοῦτο μετὰ τοῦτο· γάρ;
Ath.And we old men would very likely take most delight in listening to a rhapsode giving a fine recitation of the Iliad or the Odyssey or of a piece from Hesiod, and declare that he is easily the winner. Who then would rightly be the winner of the prize? That is the next question, is it not?
ΚΛ.Ναί.
Clin.Yes.
658e ΑΘ.Δῆλον ὡς ἔμοιγε καὶ ὑμῖν ἀναγκαῖόν ἐστιν φάναι
τοὺς ὑπὸ τῶν ἡμετέρων ἡλικιωτῶν κριθέντας ὀρθῶς ἂν
νικᾶν. τὸ γὰρ ἔθος ἡμῖν τῶν νῦν δὴ πάμπολυ δοκεῖ τῶν
ἐν ταῖς πόλεσιν ἁπάσαις καὶ πανταχοῦ βέλτιστον γίγνεσθαι.
Ath.Evidently we three cannot avoid saying that those who are adjudged the winners by our own contemporaries would win rightly. For in our opinion epic poetry is by far the best to be found nowadays anywhere in any State in the world.
ΚΛ.Τί μήν;
Clin.Of course.
ΑΘ.Συγχωρῶ δὴ τό γε τοσοῦτον καὶ ἐγὼ τοῖς πολλοῖς,
δεῖν τὴν μουσικὴν ἡδονῇ κρίνεσθαι, μὴ μέντοι τῶν γε ἐπιτυχόντων,
ἀλλὰ σχεδὸν ἐκείνην εἶναι Μοῦσαν καλλίστην ἥτις
τοὺς βελτίστους καὶ ἱκανῶς πεπαιδευμένους τέρπει, μάλιστα
659a δὲ ἥτις ἕνα τὸν ἀρετῇ τε καὶ παιδείᾳ διαφέροντα· διὰ ταῦτα
δὲ ἀρετῆς φαμεν δεῖσθαι τοὺς τούτων κριτάς, ὅτι τῆς τε
ἄλλης μετόχους αὐτοὺς εἶναι δεῖ φρονήσεως καὶ δὴ καὶ τῆς
ἀνδρείας. οὔτε γὰρ παρὰ θεάτρου δεῖ τόν γε ἀληθῆ κριτὴν
κρίνειν μανθάνοντα, καὶ ἐκπληττόμενον ὑπὸ θορύβου τῶν
πολλῶν καὶ τῆς αὑτοῦ ἀπαιδευσίας, οὔτ' αὖ γιγνώσκοντα δι'
ἀνανδρίαν καὶ δειλίαν ἐκ ταὐτοῦ στόματος οὗπερ τοὺς θεοὺς
659b ἐπεκαλέσατο μέλλων κρίνειν, ἐκ τούτου ψευδόμενον ἀποφαίνεσθαι
ῥᾳθύμως τὴν κρίσιν· οὐ γὰρ μαθητὴς ἀλλὰ διδάσκαλος,
ὥς γε τὸ δίκαιον, θεατῶν μᾶλλον κριτὴς καθίζει, καὶ ἐναντιωσόμενος
τοῖς τὴν ἡδονὴν μὴ προσηκόντως μηδὲ ὀρθῶς
ἀποδιδοῦσι θεαταῖς. ἐξῆν γὰρ δὴ τῷ παλαιῷ τε καὶ Ἑλληνικῷ
νόμῳ, <οὐ> καθάπερ Σικελικός τε καὶ Ἰταλικὸς νόμος
νῦν, τῷ πλήθει τῶν θεατῶν ἐπιτρέπων καὶ τὸν νικῶντα
διακρίνων χειροτονίαις, διέφθαρκε μὲν τοὺς ποιητὰς αὐτούς
659c πρὸς γὰρ τὴν τῶν κριτῶν ἡδονὴν ποιοῦσιν οὖσαν φαύλην,
ὥστε αὐτοὶ αὐτοὺς οἱ θεαταὶ παιδεύουσινδιέφθαρκεν δ'
αὐτοῦ τοῦ θεάτρου τὰς ἡδονάς· δέον γὰρ αὐτοὺς ἀεὶ βελτίω
τῶν αὑτῶν ἠθῶν ἀκούοντας βελτίω τὴν ἡδονὴν ἴσχειν, νῦν
αὐτοῖς δρῶσιν πᾶν τοὐναντίον συμβαίνει. τί ποτ' οὖν ἡμῖν
τὰ νῦν αὖ διαπερανθέντα τῷ λόγῳ σημαίνειν βούλεται;
σκοπεῖσθ' εἰ τόδε.
Ath.Thus much I myself am willing to concede to the majority of men,—that the criterion of music should be pleasure not, however, the pleasure of any chance person; rather I should regard that music which pleases the best men and the highly educated as about the best, and as quite the best if it pleases the one man who excels all others in virtue and education. And we say that the judges of these matters need virtue for the reason that they need to possess not only wisdom in general, but especially courage. For the true judge should not take his verdicts from the dictation of the audience, nor yield weakly to the uproar of the crowd or his own lack of education; nor again, when he knows the truth, should he give his verdict carelessly through cowardice and lack of spirit, thus swearing falsely out of the same mouth with which he invoked Heaven when he first took his seat as judge. For, rightly speaking, the judge sits not as a pupil, but rather as a teacher of the spectators, being ready to oppose those who offer them pleasure in a way that is unseemly or wrong; and that is what the present law of Sicily and Italy actually does: by entrusting the decision to the spectators, who award the prize by show of hands, not only has it corrupted the poets (since they adapt their works to the poor standard of pleasure of the judges, which means that the spectators are the teachers of the poets), but it has corrupted also the pleasures of the audience; for whereas they ought to be improving their standard of pleasure by listening to characters superior to their own, what they now do has just the opposite effect. What, then, is the conclusion to be drawn from this survey? Is it this, do you suppose?
ΚΛ.Τὸ ποῖον;
Clin.What?
ΑΘ.Δοκεῖ μοι τρίτον τέταρτον λόγος εἰς ταὐτὸν
659d περιφερόμενος ἥκειν, ὡς ἄρα παιδεία μέν ἐσθ' παίδων
ὁλκή τε καὶ ἀγωγὴ πρὸς τὸν ὑπὸ τοῦ νόμου λόγον ὀρθὸν εἰρημένον,
καὶ τοῖς ἐπιεικεστάτοις καὶ πρεσβυτάτοις δι' ἐμπειρίαν
συνδεδογμένον ὡς ὄντως ὀρθός ἐστιν· ἵν' οὖν ψυχὴ τοῦ
παιδὸς μὴ ἐναντία χαίρειν καὶ λυπεῖσθαι ἐθίζηται τῷ νόμῳ
καὶ τοῖς ὑπὸ τοῦ νόμου πεπεισμένοις, ἀλλὰ συνέπηται
χαίρουσά τε καὶ λυπουμένη τοῖς αὐτοῖς τούτοις οἷσπερ
659e γέρων, τούτων ἕνεκα, ἃς ᾠδὰς καλοῦμεν, ὄντως μὲν ἐπῳδαὶ
ταῖς ψυχαῖς αὗται νῦν γεγονέναι, πρὸς τὴν τοιαύτην ἣν
λέγομεν συμφωνίαν ἐσπουδασμέναι, διὰ δὲ τὸ σπουδὴν μὴ
δύνασθαι φέρειν τὰς τῶν νέων ψυχάς, παιδιαί τε καὶ ᾠδαὶ
καλεῖσθαι καὶ πράττεσθαι, καθάπερ τοῖς κάμνουσίν τε καὶ
ἀσθενῶς ἴσχουσιν τὰ σώματα ἐν ἡδέσι τισὶν σιτίοις καὶ
660a πώμασι τὴν χρηστὴν πειρῶνται τροφὴν προσφέρειν οἷς μέλει
τούτων, τὴν δὲ τῶν πονηρῶν ἐν ἀηδέσιν, ἵνα τὴν μὲν ἀσπάζωνται,
τὴν δὲ μισεῖν ὀρθῶς ἐθίζωνται. ταὐτὸν δὴ καὶ τὸν
ποιητικὸν ὀρθὸς νομοθέτης ἐν τοῖς καλοῖς ῥήμασι καὶ
ἐπαινετοῖς πείσει τε, καὶ ἀναγκάσει μὴ πείθων, τὰ τῶν
σωφρόνων τε καὶ ἀνδρείων καὶ πάντως ἀγαθῶν ἀνδρῶν ἔν
τε ῥυθμοῖς σχήματα καὶ ἐν ἁρμονίαισιν μέλη ποιοῦντα ὀρθῶς
ποιεῖν.
Ath.This is, I imagine, the third or fourth time that our discourse has described a circle and come back to this same point—namely, that education is the process of drawing and guiding children towards that principle which is pronounced right by the law and confirmed as truly right by the experience of the oldest and the most just. So in order that the soul of the child may not become habituated to having pains and pleasures in contradiction to the law and those who obey the law, but in conformity thereto, being pleased and pained at the same things as the old man,— for this reason we have what we call chants, which evidently are in reality incantations seriously designed to produce in souls that conformity and harmony of which we speak. But inasmuch as the souls of the young are unable to endure serious study, we term these plays and chants, and use them as such,—

just as, when people suffer from bodily ailments and infirmities, those whose office it is try to administer to them nutriment that is wholesome in meats and drinks that are pleasant, but unwholesome nutriment in the opposite, so that they may form the right habit of approving the one kind and detesting the other. Similarly in dealing with the poet, the good legislator will use noble and laudable phrases to persuade him—and, failing persuasion, he will compel him—to portray by his rhythms the gestures, and by his harmonies the tunes, of men who are temperate, courageous, and good in all respects, and thereby to compose poems aright.

660b ΚΛ.Νῦν οὖν οὕτω δοκοῦσίν σοι, πρὸς Διός, ξένε, ἐν
ταῖς ἄλλαις πόλεσι ποιεῖν; ἐγὼ μὲν γὰρ καθ' ὅσον αἰσθάνομαι,
πλὴν παρ' ἡμῖν παρὰ Λακεδαιμονίοις, σὺ νῦν
λέγεις οὐκ οἶδα πραττόμενα, καινὰ δὲ ἄττα ἀεὶ γιγνόμενα
περί τε τὰς ὀρχήσεις καὶ περὶ τὴν ἄλλην μουσικὴν σύμπασαν,
οὐχ ὑπὸ νόμων μεταβαλλόμενα ἀλλ' ὑπό τινων ἀτάκτων
ἡδονῶν, πολλοῦ δεουσῶν τῶν αὐτῶν εἶναι καὶ κατὰ ταὐτά, ὡς
660c σὺ κατ' Αἴγυπτον ἀφερμηνεύεις, ἀλλ' οὐδέποτε τῶν αὐτῶν.
Clin.In Heaven’s name, Stranger, do you believe that that is the way poetry is composed nowadays in other States? So far as my own observation goes, I know of no practices such as you describe except in my own country and in Lacedaemon; but I do know that novelties are always being introduced in dancing and all other forms of music, which changes due not to the laws, but to disorderly tastes and these are so far from being constantly uniform and stable—like the Egyptian ones you describe—that they are never for a moment uniform.
ΑΘ.Ἄριστά γ', Κλεινία. εἰ δ' ἔδοξά σοι σὺ λέγεις
λέγειν ὡς νῦν γιγνόμενα, οὐκ ἂν θαυμάζοιμι εἰ μὴ σαφῶς
λέγων διανοοῦμαι τοῦτο ἐποίησα καὶ ἔπαθον· ἀλλ'
βούλομαι γίγνεσθαι περὶ μουσικήν, τοιαῦτ' ἄττα εἶπον ἴσως
ὥστε σοὶ δόξαι ταῦτα ἐμὲ λέγειν. λοιδορεῖν γὰρ πράγματα
ἀνίατα καὶ πόρρω προβεβηκότα ἁμαρτίας οὐδαμῶς ἡδύ,
660d ἀναγκαῖον δ' ἐνίοτέ ἐστιν. ἐπειδὴ δὲ ταῦτα συνδοκεῖ καὶ
σοί, φέρε, φῂς παρ' ὑμῖν καὶ τοῖσδε μᾶλλον παρὰ τοῖς
ἄλλοις Ἕλλησιν γίγνεσθαι τὰ τοιαῦτα;
Ath.Nobly spoken, O Clinias! If, however, I seemed to you to say that the practices you refer to are in use now, very likely our mistake arose from my own failure to express my meaning clearly; probably I stated my own desires with regard to music in such a way that you imagined me to be stating present facts. To denounce things that are beyond remedy and far gone in error is a task that is by no means pleasant; but at times it is unavoidable. And now that you hold the same opinion on this subject, come, tell me, do you assert that such practices are more general among the Cretans and the Lacedaemonians than among the other Greeks?
ΚΛ.Τί μήν;
Clin.Certainly.
ΑΘ.Τί δ' εἰ καὶ παρὰ τοῖς ἄλλοις γίγνοιθ' οὕτω; πότερον
αὐτὰ καλλιόνως οὕτως εἶναι φαῖμεν ἂν καθάπερ νῦν γίγνεται
γιγνόμενα;
Ath.Suppose now that they were to become general among the rest also,—should we say that the method of procedure then would be better than it is now?
ΚΛ.Πολύ που τὸ διαφέρον, εἰ καθάπερ παρά τε τοῖσδε
καὶ παρ' ἡμῖν, καὶ ἔτι καθάπερ εἶπες σὺ νυνδὴ δεῖν εἶναι,
γίγνοιτο.
Clin.The improvement would be immense, if things were done as they are in my country and in that of our friends here, and as, moreover, you yourself said just now they ought to be done.
ΑΘ.Φέρε δή, συνομολογησώμεθα τὰ νῦν. ἄλλο τι παρ'
660e ὑμῖν ἐν πάσῃ παιδείᾳ καὶ μουσικῇ τὰ λεγόμενά ἐστι τάδε;
τοὺς ποιητὰς ἀναγκάζετε λέγειν ὡς μὲν ἀγαθὸς ἀνὴρ
σώφρων ὢν καὶ δίκαιος εὐδαίμων ἐστὶ καὶ μακάριος, ἐάντε
μέγας καὶ ἰσχυρὸς ἐάντε μικρὸς καὶ ἀσθενὴς , καὶ ἐὰν
πλουτῇ καὶ μή· ἐὰν δὲ ἄρα πλουτῇ μὲν Κινύρα τε καὶ Μίδα
μᾶλλον, δὲ ἄδικος, ἄθλιός τ' ἐστὶ καὶ ἀνιαρῶς ζῇ. καὶ
"Οὔτ' ἂν μνησαίμην," φησὶν ὑμῖν ποιητής, εἴπερ ὀρθῶς
λέγει, "οὔτ' ἐν λόγῳ ἄνδρα τιθείμην," ὃς μὴ πάντα τὰ
λεγόμενα καλὰ μετὰ δικαιοσύνης πράττοι καὶ κτῷτο, καὶ δὴ
661a "καὶ δηΐων" τοιοῦτος ὢν "ὀρέγοιτο ἐγγύθεν ἱστάμενος,"
ἄδικος δὲ ὢν μήτε τολμῷ "ὁρῶν φόνον αἱματόεντα" μήτε
νικῷ θέων "Θρηίκιον Βορέην," μήτε ἄλλο αὐτῷ μηδὲν τῶν
λεγομένων ἀγαθῶν γίγνοιτό ποτε. τὰ γὰρ ὑπὸ τῶν πολλῶν
λεγόμεν' ἀγαθὰ οὐκ ὀρθῶς λέγεται. λέγεται γὰρ ὡς ἄριστον
μὲν ὑγιαίνειν, δεύτερον δὲ κάλλος, τρίτον δὲ πλοῦτος, μυρία
δὲ ἄλλα ἀγαθὰ λέγεται· καὶ γὰρ ὀξὺ ὁρᾶν καὶ ἀκούειν καὶ
661b πάντα ὅσα ἔχεται τῶν αἰσθήσεων εὐαισθήτως ἔχειν, ἔτι δὲ
καὶ τὸ ποιεῖν τυραννοῦντα ὅτι ἂν ἐπιθυμῇ, καὶ τὸ δὴ τέλος
ἁπάσης μακαριότητος εἶναι τὸ πάντα ταῦτα κεκτημένον ἀθάνατον
εἶναι γενόμενον ὅτι τάχιστα. ὑμεῖς δὲ καὶ ἐγώ
που τάδε λέγομεν, ὡς ταῦτά ἐστι σύμπαντα δικαίοις μὲν
καὶ ὁσίοις ἀνδράσιν ἄριστα κτήματα, ἀδίκοις δὲ κάκιστα
σύμπαντα, ἀρξάμενα ἀπὸ τῆς ὑγιείας· καὶ δὴ καὶ τὸ ὁρᾶν
661c καὶ τὸ ἀκούειν καὶ αἰσθάνεσθαι καὶ τὸ παράπαν ζῆν μέγιστον
μὲν κακὸν τὸν σύμπαντα χρόνον ἀθάνατον ὄντα καὶ κεκτημένον
πάντα τὰ λεγόμενα ἀγαθὰ πλὴν δικαιοσύνης τε καὶ
ἀρετῆς ἁπάσης, ἔλαττον δέ, ἂν ὡς ὀλίγιστον τοιοῦτος
χρόνον ἐπιζώῃ. ταῦτα δὴ λέγειν, οἶμαι, τοὺς παρ' ὑμῖν
ποιητάς, ἅπερ ἐγώ, πείσετε καὶ ἀναγκάσετε, καὶ ἔτι τούτοις
ἑπομένους ῥυθμούς τε καὶ ἁρμονίας ἀποδιδόντας παιδεύειν
οὕτω τοὺς νέους ἡμῶν. γάρ; ὁρᾶτε. ἐγὼ μὲν γὰρ λέγω
661d σαφῶς τὰ μὲν κακὰ λεγόμενα ἀγαθὰ τοῖς ἀδίκοις εἶναι,
τοῖς δὲ δικαίοις κακά, τὰ δ' ἀγαθὰ τοῖς μὲν ἀγαθοῖς ὄντως
ἀγαθά, τοῖς δὲ κακοῖς κακά· ὅπερ οὖν ἠρόμην, ἆρα συμφωνοῦμεν
ἐγώ τε καὶ ὑμεῖς, πῶς;
Ath.Come now, let us come to an understanding on this matter. In all education and music in your countries, is not this your teaching? You oblige the poets to teach that the good man, since he is temperate and just, is fortunate and happy, whether he be great or small, strong or weak, rich or poor; whereas, though he be richer even than Cinyras or Midas, if he be unjust, he is a wretched man and lives a miserable life.

Your poet says—if he speaks the truth—I would spend no word on the man, and hold him in no esteem, who without justice performs or acquires all the things accounted good; and again he describes how the just man drives his spear against the foe at close quarters, whereas the unjust man dares not to look upon the face of bloody death, nor does he outpace in speed of foot the north wind out of Thrace, nor acquire any other of the things called good. For the things which most men call good are wrongly so described. Men say that the chief good is health, beauty the second, wealth the third; and they call countless other things goods—such as sharpness of sight and hearing, and quickness in perceiving all the objects of sense; being a king, too, and doing exactly as you please; and to possess the whole of these goods and become on the spot an immortal, that, as they say, is the crown and top of all felicity. But what you and I say is this,—that all these things are very good as possessions for men who are just and holy, but for the unjust they are (one and all, from health downwards) very bad; and we say too that sight and hearing and sensation and even of itself are very great evils for the man endowed with all the so-called goods, but lacking in justice and all virtue, if he is immortal forever, but a lesser evil for such a man if he survives but a short time. This, I imagine, is what you (like myself) will persuade or compel your poets to teach, and compel them also to educate your youth by furnishing them with rhythms and harmonies in consonance with this teaching. Am I not right? Just consider: what I assert is that what are called evils are good for the unjust, but evil for the just, while the so-called goods are really good for the good, but bad for the bad. Are you in accord with me, then,—that was my question,—or how stands the matter?

ΚΛ.Τὰ μὲν ἔμοιγε φαινόμεθά πως, τὰ δ' οὐδαμῶς.
Clin.We are, apparently, partly in accord, but partly quite the reverse.
ΑΘ.Ἆρ' οὖν ὑγίειάν τε κεκτημένον καὶ πλοῦτον καὶ
τυραννίδα διὰ τέλουςκαὶ ἔτι προστίθημι ὑμῖν ἰσχὺν διαφέρουσαν
661e καὶ ἀνδρείαν μετ' ἀθανασίας, καὶ μηδὲν ἄλλο αὐτῷ
τῶν λεγομένων κακῶν εἶναι γιγνόμενονἀδικίαν δὲ καὶ ὕβριν
ἔχοντα ἐν αὑτῷ μόνον, τὸν οὕτω ζῶντα ἴσως ὑμᾶς οὐ πείθω
μὴ οὐκ ἄρα εὐδαίμονα ἀλλ' ἄθλιον γίγνεσθαι σαφῶς;
Ath.Take the case of a man who has health and wealth and absolute power in perpetuity,—in addition to which I bestow on him, if you like, matchless strength and courage, together with immortality and freedom from all the other evils so called,—but a man who has within him nothing but injustice and insolence: probably I fail to convince you that the man who lives such a life is obviously not happy but wretched?
ΚΛ.Ἀληθέστατα λέγεις.
Clin.Quite true.
ΑΘ.Εἶεν· τί οὖν τὸ μετὰ τοῦτ' εἰπεῖν ἡμᾶς χρεών;
ἀνδρεῖος γὰρ δὴ καὶ ἰσχυρὸς καὶ καλὸς καὶ πλούσιος, καὶ
662a ποιῶν ὅτιπερ ἐπιθυμοῖ τὸν βίον ἅπαντα, οὐχ ὑμῖν δοκεῖ,
εἴπερ ἄδικος εἴη καὶ ὑβριστής, ἐξ ἀνάγκης αἰσχρῶς ἂν ζῆν;
τοῦτο μὲν ἴσως ἂν συγχωρήσαιτε, τό γε αἰσχρῶς;
Ath.Well, then, what ought I to say next? Do you not think that if a man who is courageous, strong, beautiful, and rich, and who does exactly as he likes all his life long, is really unjust and insolent, he must necessarily be living a base life? Probably you will agree at any rate to call it base?
ΚΛ.Πάνυ μὲν οὖν.
Clin.Certainly.
ΑΘ.Τί δέ; τὸ καὶ κακῶς;
Ath.And also a bad life?
ΚΛ.Οὐκ ἂν ἔτι τοῦθ' ὁμοίως.
Clin.We would not go so far as to admit that.
ΑΘ.Τί δέ; τὸ καὶ ἀηδῶς καὶ μὴ συμφερόντως αὑτῷ;
Ath.Well, would you admit the epithets unpleasant and unprofitable to himself?
ΚΛ.Καὶ πῶς ἂν ταῦτά γ' ἔτι συγχωροῖμεν;
Clin.How could we agree to such further descriptions?
662b ΑΘ.Ὅπως; εἰ θεὸς ἡμῖν, ὡς ἔοικεν, φίλοι, δοίη τις
συμφωνίαν, ὡς νῦν γε σχεδὸν ἀπᾴδομεν ἀπ' ἀλλήλων. ἐμοὶ
γὰρ δὴ φαίνεται ταῦτα οὕτως ἀναγκαῖα, ὡς οὐδέ, φίλε
Κλεινία, Κρήτη νῆσος σαφῶς· καὶ νομοθέτης ὢν ταύτῃ
πειρῴμην ἂν τούς τε ποιητὰς ἀναγκάζειν φθέγγεσθαι καὶ
πάντας τοὺς ἐν τῇ πόλει, ζημίαν τε ὀλίγου μεγίστην ἐπιτιθείην
ἄν, εἴ τις ἐν τῇ χώρᾳ φθέγξαιτο ὡς εἰσίν τινες
662c ἄνθρωποί ποτε πονηροὶ μέν, ἡδέως δὲ ζῶντες, λυσιτελοῦντα
μὲν ἄλλα ἐστὶ καὶ κερδαλέα, δικαιότερα δὲ ἄλλα, καὶ πόλλ'
ἄττ' ἂν παρὰ τὰ νῦν λεγόμενα ὑπό τε Κρητῶν καὶ Λακεδαιμονίων,
ὡς ἔοικε, καὶ δήπου καὶ τῶν ἄλλων ἀνθρώπων,
διάφορα πείθοιμ' ἂν τοὺς πολίτας μοι φθέγγεσθαι. φέρε
γάρ, πρὸς Διός τε καὶ Ἀπόλλωνος, ἄριστοι τῶν ἀνδρῶν,
εἰ τοὺς νομοθετήσαντας ὑμῖν αὐτοὺς τούτους ἐροίμεθα θεούς·
662d "Ἆρ' δικαιότατός ἐστιν βίος ἥδιστος, δύ' ἐστόν τινε βίω,
οἷν μὲν ἥδιστος ὢν τυγχάνει, δικαιότατος δ' ἕτερος;" εἰ δὴ
δύο φαῖεν, ἐροίμεθ' ἂν ἴσως αὐτοὺς πάλιν, εἴπερ ὀρθῶς
ἐπανερωτῷμεν· "Ποτέρους δὲ εὐδαιμονεστέρους χρὴ λέγειν,
τοὺς τὸν δικαιότατον τοὺς τὸν ἥδιστον διαβιοῦντας βίον;"
εἰ μὲν δὴ φαῖεν τοὺς τὸν ἥδιστον, ἄτοπος αὐτῶν λόγος
ἂν γίγνοιτο. βούλομαι δέ μοι μὴ ἐπὶ θεῶν λέγεσθαι τὸ
662e τοιοῦτον, ἀλλ' ἐπὶ πατέρων καὶ νομοθετῶν μᾶλλον, καί μοι
τὰ ἔμπροσθεν ἠρωτημένα πατέρα τε καὶ νομοθέτην ἠρωτήσθω,
δ' εἰπέτω ὡς ζῶν τὸν ἥδιστον βίον ἐστὶν μακαριώτατος·
εἶτα μετὰ ταῦτα ἔγωγ' ἂν φαίην· " πάτερ, οὐχ ὡς εὐδαιμονέστατά
με ἐβούλου ζῆν; ἀλλ' ἀεὶ διακελευόμενος οὐδὲν
ἐπαύου ζῆν με ὡς δικαιότατα." ταύτῃ μὲν οὖν τιθέμενος
εἴτε νομοθέτης εἴτε καὶ πατὴρ ἄτοπος ἂν οἶμαι καὶ ἄπορος
φαίνοιτο τοῦ συμφωνούντως ἑαυτῷ λέγειν· εἰ δ' αὖ τὸν
δικαιότατον εὐδαιμονέστατον ἀποφαίνοιτο βίον εἶναι, ζητοῖ
που πᾶς ἂν ἀκούων, οἶμαι, τί ποτ' ἐν αὐτῷ τὸ τῆς ἡδονῆς
663a κρεῖττον ἀγαθόν τε καὶ καλὸν νόμος ἐνὸν ἐπαινεῖ. τί γὰρ
δὴ δικαίῳ χωριζόμενον ἡδονῆς ἀγαθὸν ἂν γίγνοιτο; φέρε,
κλέος τε καὶ ἔπαινος πρὸς ἀνθρώπων τε καὶ θεῶν ἆρ' ἐστὶν
ἀγαθὸν μὲν καὶ καλόν, ἀηδὲς δέ, δύσκλεια δὲ τἀναντία;
ἥκιστα, φίλε νομοθέτα, φήσομεν. ἀλλὰ τὸ μήτε τινὰ
ἀδικεῖν μήτε ὑπό τινος ἀδικεῖσθαι μῶν ἀηδὲς μέν, ἀγαθὸν δὲ
καλόν, τὰ δ' ἕτερα ἡδέα μέν, αἰσχρὰ δὲ καὶ κακά;
Ath.How? do you ask? Only (as it seems, my friend) if some god were to grant us concord, since at present we are fairly at discord one with another. In my opinion these facts are quite indisputable even more plainly so, my dear Clinias, than the fact that Crete is an island; and were I a legislator, I should endeavor to compel the poets and all the citizens to speak in this sense; and I should impose all but the heaviest of penalties on anyone in the land who should declare that any wicked men lead pleasant lives, or that things profitable and lucrative are different from things just; and there are many other things contrary to what is now said, as it seems, by Cretans and Lacedaemonians,—and of course by the rest of mankind,—which I should persuade my citizens to proclaim. For, come now, my most excellent sirs, in the name of Zeus and Apollo, suppose we should interrogate those very gods themselves who legislated for you, and ask: Is the most just life the most pleasant; or are there two lives, of which the one is most pleasant, the other most just? If they replied that there were two, we might well ask them further, if we were to put the correct question; Which of the two ought one to describe as the happier, those that live the most just or those that live the most pleasant life? If they replied, Those that live the most pleasant life, that would be a monstrous statement in their mouths. But I prefer not to ascribe such statements to gods, but rather to ancestors and lawgivers: imagine, then, that the questions I have put have been put to an ancestor and lawgiver, and that he has stated that the man who lives the most pleasant life is the happiest. In the next place I would say to him this: O father, did you not desire me to live as happily as possible? Yet you never ceased bidding me constantly to live as justly as possible.

And hereby, as I think, our lawgiver or ancestor would be shown up as illogical and incapable of speaking consistently with himself, but if, on the other hand, he were to declare the most just life to be the happiest, everyone who heard him would, I suppose, enquire what is the good and charm it contains which is superior to pleasure, for which the lawgiver praises it. For, apart from pleasure, what good could accrue to a just man? Come, tell me, is fair fame and praise from the mouths of men and gods a noble and good thing, but unpleasant, while ill-fame is the opposite? By no means, my dear lawgiver, we shall say. And is it unpleasant, but noble and good, neither to injure anyone nor be injured by anyone, while the opposite is pleasant, but ignoble and bad?

ΚΛ.Καὶ πῶς;
Clin.By no means.
ΑΘ.Οὐκοῦν μὲν μὴ χωρίζων λόγος ἡδύ τε καὶ δίκαιον
663b καὶ ἀγαθόν τε καὶ καλὸν πιθανός γ', εἰ μηδὲν ἕτερον, πρὸς
τό τινα ἐθέλειν ζῆν τὸν ὅσιον καὶ δίκαιον βίον, ὥστε νομοθέτῃ
γε αἴσχιστος λόγων καὶ ἐναντιώτατος ὃς ἂν μὴ φῇ
ταῦτα οὕτως ἔχειν· οὐδεὶς γὰρ ἂν ἑκὼν ἐθέλοι πείθεσθαι
πράττειν τοῦτο ὅτῳ μὴ τὸ χαίρειν τοῦ λυπεῖσθαι πλέον
ἕπεται. σκοτοδινιᾶν δὲ τὸ πόρρωθεν ὁρώμενον πᾶσίν τε ὡς
ἔπος εἰπεῖν καὶ δὴ καὶ τοῖς παισὶ παρέχει, νομοθέτης
εἰ μὴ δόξαν εἰς τοὐναντίον τούτου καταστήσει, τὸ σκότος
663c ἀφελών, καὶ πείσει ἁμῶς γέ πως ἔθεσι καὶ ἐπαίνοις καὶ
λόγοις ὡς ἐσκιαγραφημένα τὰ δίκαιά ἐστι καὶ ἄδικα, τὰ μὲν
ἄδικα τῷ τοῦ δικαίου ἐναντίως φαινόμενα, ἐκ μὲν ἀδίκου καὶ
κακοῦ ἑαυτοῦ θεωρούμενα ἡδέα, τὰ δὲ δίκαια ἀηδέστατα, ἐκ δὲ
δικαίου πάντα τἀναντία παντὶ πρὸς ἀμφότερα.
Ath.So then the teaching which refuses to separate the pleasant from the just helps, if nothing else, to induce a man to live the holy and just life, so that any doctrine which denies this truth is, in the eyes of the lawgiver, most shameful and most hateful; for no one would voluntarily consent to be induced to commit an act, unless it involves as its consequence more pleasure than pain. Now distance has the effect of befogging the vision of nearly everybody, and of children especially; but our lawgiver will reverse the appearance by removing the fog, and by one means or another—habituation, commendation, or argument—will persuade people that their notions of justice and injustice are illusory pictures, unjust objects appearing pleasant and just objects most unpleasant to him who is opposed to justice, through being viewed from his own unjust and evil standpoint, but when seen from the standpoint of justice, both of them appear in all ways entirely the opposite.
ΚΛ.Φαίνεται.
Clin.So it appears.
ΑΘ.Τὴν δ' ἀλήθειαν τῆς κρίσεως ποτέραν κυριωτέραν εἶναι
φῶμεν; πότερα τὴν τῆς χείρονος ψυχῆς τὴν τῆς βελτίονος;
Ath.In point of truth, which of the two judgements shall we say is the more authoritative,—that of the worse soul or that of the better.
663d ΚΛ.Ἀναγκαῖόν που τὴν τῆς ἀμείνονος.
Clin.That of the better, undoubtedly.
ΑΘ.Ἀναγκαῖον ἄρα τὸν ἄδικον βίον οὐ μόνον αἰσχίω
καὶ μοχθηρότερον, ἀλλὰ καὶ ἀηδέστερον τῇ ἀληθείᾳ τοῦ
δικαίου τε εἶναι καὶ ὁσίου βίου.
Ath.Undoubtedly, then, the unjust life is not only more base and ignoble, but also in very truth more unpleasant, than the just and holy life.
ΚΛ.Κινδυνεύει κατά γε τὸν νῦν λόγον, φίλοι.
Clin.It would seem so, my friends, from our present argument.
ΑΘ.Νομοθέτης δὲ οὗ τι καὶ σμικρὸν ὄφελος, εἰ καὶ μὴ
τοῦτο ἦν οὕτως ἔχον, ὡς καὶ νῦν αὐτὸ ᾕρηχ' λόγος ἔχειν,
εἴπερ τι καὶ ἄλλο ἐτόλμησεν ἂν ἐπ' ἀγαθῷ ψεύδεσθαι πρὸς
τοὺς νέους, ἔστιν ὅτι τούτου ψεῦδος λυσιτελέστερον ἂν
663e ἐψεύσατό ποτε καὶ δυνάμενον μᾶλλον ποιεῖν μὴ βίᾳ ἀλλ'
ἑκόντας πάντας πάντα τὰ δίκαια;
Ath.And even if the state of the case were different from what it has now been proved to be by our argument, could a lawgiver who was worth his salt find any more useful fiction than this (if he dared to use any fiction at all in addressing the youths for their good), or one more effective in persuading all men to act justly in all things willingly and without constraint?
ΚΛ.Καλὸν μὲν ἀλήθεια, ξένε, καὶ μόνιμον· ἔοικε
μὴν οὐ ῥᾴδιον εἶναι πείθειν.
Clin.Truth is a noble thing, Stranger, and an enduring; yet to persuade men of it seems no easy matter.
ΑΘ.Εἶεν· τὸ μὲν τοῦ Σιδωνίου μυθολόγημα ῥᾴδιον
ἐγένετο πείθειν, οὕτως ἀπίθανον ὄν, καὶ ἄλλα μυρία;
Ath.Be it so; yet it proved easy to persuade men of the Sidonian fairy-tale, incredible though it was, and of numberless others.
ΚΛ.Ποῖα;
Clin.What tales?
ΑΘ.Τὸ σπαρέντων ποτὲ ὀδόντων ὁπλίτας ἐξ αὐτῶν
φῦναι. καίτοι μέγα γ' ἐστὶ νομοθέτῃ παράδειγμα τοῦ
664a πείσειν ὅτι ἂν ἐπιχειρῇ τις πείθειν τὰς τῶν νέων ψυχάς,
ὥστε οὐδὲν ἄλλο αὐτὸν δεῖ σκοποῦντα ἀνευρίσκειν τί
πείσας μέγιστον ἀγαθὸν ἐργάσαιτο ἂν πόλιν, τούτου δὲ
πέρι πᾶσαν μηχανὴν εὑρίσκειν ὅντινά ποτε τρόπον τοιαύτη
συνοικία πᾶσα περὶ τούτων ἓν καὶ ταὐτὸν ὅτι μάλιστα
φθέγγοιτ' ἀεὶ διὰ βίου παντὸς ἔν τε ᾠδαῖς καὶ μύθοις καὶ
λόγοις. εἰ δ' οὖν ἄλλῃ πῃ δοκεῖ ταύτῃ, πρὸς ταῦτα οὐδεὶς
φθόνος ἀμφισβητῆσαι τῷ λόγῳ.
Ath.The tale of the teeth that were sown, and how armed men sprang out of them. Here, indeed, the lawgiver has a notable example of how one can, if he tries, persuade the souls of the young of anything, so that the only question he has to consider in his inventing is what would do most good to the State, if it were believed; and then he must devise all possible means to ensure that the whole of the community constantly, so long as they live, use exactly the same language, so far as possible, about these matters, alike in their songs, their tales, and their discourses. If you, however, think otherwise, I have no objection to your arguing in the opposite sense.
664b ΚΛ.Ἀλλ' οὔ μοι φαίνεται πρός γε ταῦτα δύνασθαι ἡμῶν
ἀμφισβητῆσαί ποτ' ἂν οὐδέτερος.
Clin.Neither of us, I think, could possibly argue against your view.
ΑΘ.Τὸ μετὰ τοῦτο τοίνυν ἐμὸν ἂν εἴη λέγειν. φημὶ
γὰρ ἅπαντας δεῖν ἐπᾴδειν τρεῖς ὄντας τοὺς χοροὺς ἔτι νέαις
οὔσαις ταῖς ψυχαῖς καὶ ἁπαλαῖς τῶν παίδων, τά τε ἄλλα
καλὰ λέγοντας πάντα ὅσα διεληλύθαμέν τε καὶ ἔτι διέλθοιμεν
ἄν, τὸ δὲ κεφάλαιον αὐτῶν τοῦτο ἔστω· τὸν αὐτὸν
ἥδιστόν τε καὶ ἄριστον ὑπὸ θεῶν βίον λέγεσθαι φάσκοντες,
664c ἀληθέστατα ἐροῦμεν ἅμα, καὶ μᾶλλον πείσομεν οὓς δεῖ
πείθειν ἐὰν ἄλλως πως φθεγγώμεθα λέγοντες.
Ath.Our next subject I must handle myself. I maintain that all the three choirs must enchant the souls of the children, while still young and tender, by rehearsing all the noble things which we have already recounted, or shall recount hereafter; and let this be the sum of them: in asserting that one and the same life is declared by the gods to be both most pleasant and most just, we shall not only be saying what is most true, but we shall also convince those who need convincing more forcibly than we could by any other assertion.
ΚΛ.Συγχωρητέον λέγεις.
Clin.We must assent to what you say.
ΑΘ.Πρῶτον μὲν τοίνυν Μουσῶν χορὸς παιδικὸς
ὀρθότατ' ἂν εἰσίοι πρῶτος τὰ τοιαῦτα εἰς τὸ μέσον ᾀσόμενος
ἁπάσῃ σπουδῇ καὶ ὅλῃ τῇ πόλει, δεύτερος δὲ μέχρι τριάκοντα
ἐτῶν, τόν τε Παιᾶνα ἐπικαλούμενος μάρτυρα τῶν
λεγομένων ἀληθείας πέρι καὶ τοῖς νέοις ἵλεων μετὰ πειθοῦς
664d γίγνεσθαι ἐπευχόμενος. δεῖ δὲ δὴ καὶ ἔτι τρίτους τοὺς ὑπὲρ
τριάκοντα ἔτη μέχρι τῶν ἑξήκοντα γεγονότας ᾄδειν· τοὺς
δὲ μετὰ ταῦταοὐ γὰρ ἔτι δυνατοὶ φέρειν ᾠδάςμυθολόγους
περὶ τῶν αὐτῶν ἠθῶν διὰ θείας φήμης καταλελεῖφθαι.
Ath.First, then, the right order of procedure will be for the Muses’ choir of children to come forward first to sing these things with the utmost vigor and before the whole city; second will come the choir of those under thirty, invoking Apollo Paian as witness of the truth of what is said, and praying him of grace to persuade the youth. The next singers will be the third choir, of those over thirty and under sixty; and lastly, there were left those who, being no longer able to uplift the song, shall handle the same moral themes in stories and by oracular speech.
ΚΛ.Λέγεις δέ, ξένε, τίνας τούτους τοὺς χοροὺς τοὺς
τρίτους; οὐ γὰρ πάνυ συνίεμεν σαφῶς ὅτι ποτὲ βούλει
φράζειν αὐτῶν πέρι.
Clin.Whom do you mean, Stranger, by these third choristers. For we do not grasp very clearly what you intend to convey about them.
ΑΘ.Καὶ μὴν εἰσίν γε οὗτοι σχεδὸν ὧν χάριν οἱ πλεῖστοι
τῶν ἔμπροσθεν ἐρρήθησαν λόγων.
Ath.Yet they are in fact the very people to whom most of our previous discourse was intended to lead up.
664e ΚΛ.Οὔπω μεμαθήκαμεν, ἀλλ' ἔτι σαφέστερον πειρῶ
φράζειν.
Clin.We are still in the dark: try to explain yourself more clearly still.
ΑΘ.Εἴπομεν, εἰ μεμνήμεθα, κατ' ἀρχὰς τῶν λόγων, ὡς
φύσις ἁπάντων τῶν νέων διάπυρος οὖσα ἡσυχίαν οὐχ οἵα
τε ἄγειν οὔτε κατὰ τὸ σῶμα οὔτε κατὰ τὴν φωνὴν εἴη,
φθέγγοιτο δ' ἀεὶ ἀτάκτως καὶ πηδῷ, τάξεως δ' αἴσθησιν
τούτων ἀμφοτέρων, τῶν ἄλλων μὲν ζῴων οὐδὲν ἐφάπτοιτο,
δὲ ἀνθρώπου φύσις ἔχοι μόνη τοῦτο· τῇ δὴ τῆς κινήσεως
665a τάξει ῥυθμὸς ὄνομα εἴη, τῇ δὲ αὖ τῆς φωνῆς, τοῦ τε ὀξέος
ἅμα καὶ βαρέος συγκεραννυμένων, ἁρμονία ὄνομα προσαγορεύοιτο,
χορεία δὲ τὸ συναμφότερον κληθείη. θεοὺς δὲ ἔφαμεν
ἐλεοῦντας ἡμᾶς συγχορευτάς τε καὶ χορηγοὺς ἡμῖν δεδωκέναι
τόν τε Ἀπόλλωνα καὶ Μούσας, καὶ δὴ καὶ τρίτον ἔφαμεν,
εἰ μεμνήμεθα, Διόνυσον.
Ath.At the commencement of our discourse we said, if we recollect, that since all young creatures are by nature fiery, they are unable to keep still either body or voice, but are always crying and leaping in disorderly fashion; we said also that none of the other creatures attains a sense of order, bodily and vocal, and that this is possessed by man alone;

and that the order of motion is called rhythm, while the order of voice (in which acute and grave are blended together) is termed harmony, and to the combination of these two the name choristry is given. We stated also that the gods, in pity for us, have granted to us as fellow-choristers and choir-leaders Apollo and the Muses,—besides whom we mentioned, if we recollect, a third, Dionysus.

ΚΛ.Πῶς δ' οὐ μεμνήμεθα;
Clin.Certainly we recollect.
ΑΘ. μὲν τοίνυν τοῦ Ἀπόλλωνος καὶ τῶν Μουσῶν
665b χορὸς εἴρηνται, τὸν δὲ τρίτον καὶ τὸν λοιπὸν χορὸν ἀνάγκη
τοῦ Διονύσου λέγεσθαι.
Ath.The choir of Apollo and that of the Muses have been described, and the third and remaining choir must necessarily be described, which is that of Dionysus.
ΚΛ.Πῶς δή; λέγε· μάλα γὰρ ἄτοπος γίγνοιτ' ἂν ὥς
γε ἐξαίφνης ἀκούσαντι Διονύσου πρεσβυτῶν χορός, εἰ ἄρα
οἱ ὑπὲρ τριάκοντα καὶ πεντήκοντα δὲ γεγονότες ἔτη μέχρι
ἑξήκοντα αὐτῷ χορεύσουσιν.
Clin.How so? Tell us; for at the first mention of it, a Dionysiac choir of old men sounds mighty strange,—if you mean that men over thirty, and even men over fifty and up to sixty, are really going to dance in his honor.
ΑΘ.Ἀληθέστατα μέντοι λέγεις. λόγου δὴ δεῖ πρὸς
ταῦτα οἶμαι, ὅπῃ τοῦτο εὔλογον οὕτω γιγνόμενον ἂν γίγνοιτο.
Ath.That is, indeed, perfectly true. It needs argument, I fancy, to show how such a procedure would be reasonable.
ΚΛ.Τί μήν;
Clin.It does.
ΑΘ.Ἆρ' οὖν ἡμῖν τά γε ἔμπροσθεν ὁμολογεῖται;
Ath.Are we agreed about our previous proposals?
665c ΚΛ.Τοῦ πέρι;
Clin.In what respect?
ΑΘ.Τὸ δεῖν πάντ' ἄνδρα καὶ παῖδα, ἐλεύθερον καὶ
δοῦλον, θῆλύν τε καὶ ἄρρενα, καὶ ὅλῃ τῇ πόλει ὅλην τὴν
πόλιν αὐτὴν αὑτῇ ἐπᾴδουσαν μὴ παύεσθαί ποτε ταῦτα
διεληλύθαμεν, ἁμῶς γέ πως ἀεὶ μεταβαλλόμενα καὶ πάντως
παρεχόμενα ποικιλίαν, ὥστε ἀπληστίαν εἶναί τινα τῶν
ὕμνων τοῖς ᾄδουσιν καὶ ἡδονήν.
Ath.That it is the duty of every man and child—bond and free, male and female,—and the duty of the whole State, to charm themselves unceasingly with the chants we have described, constantly changing them and securing variety in every way possible, so as to inspire the singers with an insatiable appetite for the hymns and with pleasure therein.
ΚΛ.Πῶς δ' οὐχ ὁμολογοῖτ' ἂν δεῖν ταῦτα οὕτω πράττεσθαι;
Clin.Assuredly we would agree as to the duty of doing this.
665d ΑΘ.Ποῦ δὴ τοῦθ' ἡμῖν τὸ ἄριστον τῆς πόλεως, ἡλικίαις
τε καὶ ἅμα φρονήσεσιν πιθανώτατον ὂν τῶν ἐν τῇ πόλει,
ᾆδον τὰ κάλλιστα μέγιστ' ἂν ἐξεργάζοιτο ἀγαθά; τοῦτο
ἀνοήτως οὕτως ἀφήσομεν, κυριώτατον ἂν εἴη τῶν καλλίστων
τε καὶ ὠφελιμωτάτων ᾠδῶν;
Ath.Then where should we put the best element in the State,—that which by age and judgment alike is the most influential it contains,—so that by singing its noblest songs it might do most good? Or shall we be so foolish as to dismiss that section which possesses the highest capacity for the noblest and most useful songs?
ΚΛ.Ἀλλὰ ἀδύνατον τὸ μεθιέναι, ὥς γε τὰ νῦν λεγόμενα.
Clin.We cannot possibly dismiss it, judging from what you now say.
ΑΘ.Πῶς οὖν πρέπον ἂν εἴη τοῦτο; ὁρᾶτε εἰ τῇδε.
Ath.What seemly method can we adopt about it? Will the method be this?
ΚΛ.Πῇ δή;
Clin.What?
ΑΘ.Πᾶς που γιγνόμενος πρεσβύτερος ὄκνου πρὸς τὰς
665e ᾠδὰς μεστός, καὶ χαίρει τε ἧττον πράττων τοῦτο καὶ ἀνάγκης
γιγνομένης αἰσχύνοιτ' ἂν μᾶλλον, ὅσῳ πρεσβύτερος καὶ
σωφρονέστερος γίγνεται, τόσῳ μᾶλλον. ἆρ' οὐχ οὕτως;
Ath.Every man as he grows older becomes reluctant to sing songs, and takes less pleasure in doing so; and when compelled to sing, the older he is and the more temperate, the more he will feel ashamed. Is it not so?
ΚΛ.Οὕτω μὲν οὖν.
Clin.It is.
ΑΘ.Οὐκοῦν ἐν θεάτρῳ γε καὶ παντοίοις ἀνθρώποις ᾄδειν
ἑστὼς ὀρθὸς ἔτι μᾶλλον αἰσχύνοιτ' ἄν· καὶ ταῦτά γ' εἰ
καθάπερ οἱ περὶ νίκης χοροὶ ἀγωνιζόμενοι πεφωνασκηκότες
ἰσχνοί τε καὶ ἄσιτοι ἀναγκάζοιντο ᾄδειν οἱ τοιοῦτοι, παντάπασίν
που ἀηδῶς τε καὶ αἰσχυντηλῶς ᾄδοντες ἀπροθύμως
ἂν τοῦτ' ἐργάζοιντο;
Ath.Surely, then, he will be more than ever ashamed to get up and sing in the theater, before people of all sorts. Moreover, if old men like that were obliged to do as the choristers do, who go lean and fasting when training their voices for a competition, they would assuredly find singing an unpleasant and degrading task, and they would undertake it with no great readiness.
666a ΚΛ.Ἀναγκαιότατα μέντοι λέγεις.
Clin.That is beyond a doubt.
ΑΘ.Πῶς οὖν αὐτοὺς παραμυθησόμεθα προθύμους εἶναι
πρὸς τὰς ᾠδάς; ἆρ' οὐ νομοθετήσομεν πρῶτον μὲν τοὺς
παῖδας μέχρι ἐτῶν ὀκτωκαίδεκα τὸ παράπαν οἴνου μὴ γεύεσθαι,
διδάσκοντες ὡς οὐ χρὴ πῦρ ἐπὶ πῦρ ὀχετεύειν εἴς τε
τὸ σῶμα καὶ τὴν ψυχήν, πρὶν ἐπὶ τοὺς πόνους ἐγχειρεῖν
πορεύεσθαι, τὴν ἐμμανῆ εὐλαβουμένους ἕξιν τῶν νέων·
μετὰ δὲ τοῦτο οἴνου μὲν δὴ γεύεσθαι τοῦ μετρίου μέχρι
666b τριάκοντα ἐτῶν, μέθης δὲ καὶ πολυοινίας τὸ παράπαν τὸν
νέον ἀπέχεσθαι· τετταράκοντα δὲ ἐπιβαίνοντα ἐτῶν, ἐν τοῖς
συσσιτίοις εὐωχηθέντα, καλεῖν τούς τε ἄλλους θεοὺς καὶ δὴ
καὶ Διόνυσον παρακαλεῖν εἰς τὴν τῶν πρεσβυτέρων τελετὴν
ἅμα καὶ παιδιάν, ἣν τοῖς ἀνθρώποις ἐπίκουρον τῆς τοῦ γήρως
αὐστηρότητος ἐδωρήσατο τὸν οἶνον φάρμακον, ὥστε ἀνηβᾶν
ἡμᾶς, καὶ δυσθυμίας λήθῃ γίγνεσθαι μαλακώτερον ἐκ
666c σκληροτέρου τὸ τῆς ψυχῆς ἦθος, καθάπερ εἰς πῦρ σίδηρον
ἐντεθέντα γιγνόμενον, καὶ οὕτως εὐπλαστότερον εἶναι;
πρῶτον μὲν δὴ διατεθεὶς οὕτως ἕκαστος ἆρ' οὐκ ἂν ἐθέλοι
προθυμότερόν γε, ἧττον αἰσχυνόμενος, οὐκ ἐν πολλοῖς ἀλλὰ
ἐν μετρίοις, καὶ οὐκ ἐν ἀλλοτρίοις ἀλλ' ἐν οἰκείοις, ᾄδειν
τε καὶ πολλάκις εἰρήκαμεν ἐπᾴδειν;
Ath.How then shall we encourage them to take readily to singing? Shall we not pass a law that, in the first place, no children under eighteen may touch wine at all, teaching that it is wrong to pour fire upon fire either in body or in soul, before they set about tackling their real work, and thus guarding against the excitable disposition of the young? And next, we shall rule that the young man under thirty may take wine in moderation, but that he must entirely abstain from intoxication and heavy drinking. But when a man has reached the age of forty, he may join in the convivial gatherings and invoke Dionysus, above all other gods, inviting his presence at the rite (which is also the recreation) of the elders, which he bestowed on mankind as a medicine potent against the crabbedness of old age, that thereby we men may renew our youth, and that, through forgetfulness of care, the temper of our souls may lose its hardness and become softer and more ductile, even as iron when it has been forged in the fire. Will not this softer disposition, in the first place, render each one of them more ready and less ashamed to sing chants and incantations (as we have often called them), in the presence, not of a large company of strangers, but of a small number of intimate friends?
ΚΛ.Καὶ πολύ γε.
Clin.Yes! much more ready.
ΑΘ.Εἰς μέν γε τὸ προάγειν τοίνυν αὐτοὺς μετέχειν
ἡμῖν ᾠδῆς οὗτος τρόπος οὐκ ἂν παντάπασιν ἀσχήμων
666d γίγνοιτο.
Ath.So then, for the purpose of inducing them to take a share in our singing, this plan would not be altogether unseemly.
ΚΛ.Οὐδαμῶς.
Clin.By no means.
ΑΘ.Ποίαν δὲ ἥσουσιν οἱ ἄνδρες φωνήν; μοῦσαν []
δῆλον ὅτι πρέπουσαν αὑτοῖς δεῖ γέ τινα;
Ath.What manner of song will the men raise? Will it not, evidently, be one that suits their own condition in every case?
ΚΛ.Πῶς γὰρ οὔ;
Clin.Of course.
ΑΘ.Τίς ἂν οὖν πρέποι θείοις ἀνδράσιν; ἆρ' ἂν τῶν
χορῶν;
Ath.What song, then, would suit godlike men? Would a choric song?
ΚΛ.Ἡμεῖς γοῦν, ξένε, καὶ οἵδε οὐκ ἄλλην ἄν τινα
δυναίμεθα ᾠδὴν ἣν ἐν τοῖς χοροῖς ἐμάθομεν συνήθεις
ᾄδειν γενόμενοι.
Clin.At any rate, Stranger, we and our friends here would be unable to sing any other song than that which we learnt by practice in choruses.
ΑΘ.Εἰκότως γε· ὄντως γὰρ οὐκ ἐπήβολοι γεγόνατε τῆς
666e καλλίστης ᾠδῆς. στρατοπέδου γὰρ πολιτείαν ἔχετε ἀλλ'
οὐκ ἐν ἄστεσι κατῳκηκότων, ἀλλ' οἷον ἁθρόους πώλους ἐν
ἀγέλῃ νεμομένους φορβάδας τοὺς νέους κέκτησθε· λαβὼν
δ' ὑμῶν οὐδεὶς τὸν αὑτοῦ, παρὰ τῶν συννόμων σπάσας
σφόδρα ἀγριαίνοντα καὶ ἀγανακτοῦντα, ἱπποκόμον τε ἐπέστησεν
ἰδίᾳ καὶ παιδεύει ψήχων τε καὶ ἡμερῶν, καὶ πάντα
προσήκοντα ἀποδιδοὺς τῇ παιδοτροφίᾳ ὅθεν οὐ μόνον ἀγαθὸς
667a ἂν στρατιώτης εἴη, πόλιν δὲ καὶ ἄστη δυνάμενος διοικεῖν,
ὃν δὴ κατ' ἀρχὰς εἴπομεν τῶν Τυρταίου πολεμικῶν εἶναι
πολεμικώτερον, τέταρτον ἀρετῆς ἀλλ' οὐ πρῶτον τὴν ἀνδρείαν
κτῆμα τιμῶντα ἀεὶ καὶ πανταχοῦ, ἰδιώταις τε καὶ συμπάσῃ
πόλει.
Ath.Naturally; for in truth you never attained to the noblest singing. For your civic organization is that of an army rather than that of city-dwellers, and you keep your young people massed together like a herd of colts at grass:

none of you takes his own colt, dragging him away from his fellows, in spite of his fretting and fuming, and puts a special groom in charge of him, and trains him by rubbing him down and stroking him and using all the means proper to child-nursing, that so he may turn out not only a good soldier, but able also to manage a State and cities—in short, a man who (as we said at the first) is more of a warrior than the warriors of Tyrtaeus, inasmuch as always and everywhere, both in States and in individuals, he esteems courage as the fourth in order of the virtues, not the first.

ΚΛ.Οὐκ οἶδα ἡμῶν, ξένε, ὅπῃ πάλιν αὖ τοὺς νομοθέτας
φαυλίζεις.
Clin.Once again, Stranger, you are—in a sort of a way—disparaging our lawgivers.
ΑΘ.Οὐκ, ὠγαθέ, προσέχων τούτῳ τὸν νοῦν δρῶ τοῦτο,
εἴπερ· ἀλλ' λόγος ὅπῃ φέρει, ταύτῃ πορευώμεθα, εἰ βούλεσθε.
εἰ γὰρ ἔχομεν μοῦσαν τῆς τῶν χορῶν καλλίω καὶ
667b τῆς ἐν τοῖς κοινοῖς θεάτροις, πειρώμεθα ἀποδοῦναι τούτοις
οὕς φαμεν ἐκείνην μὲν αἰσχύνεσθαι, ζητεῖν δέ, ἥτις καλλίστη,
ταύτης κοινωνεῖν.
Ath.It is not intentionally, my friend, that I do so—if I am doing it but whither the argument leads us, thither, if you please, let us go. If we know of a music that is superior to that of the choirs or to that of the public theaters, let us try to supply it to those men who, as we said, are ashamed of the latter, yet are eager to take a part in that music which is noblest.
ΚΛ.Πάνυ γε.
Clin.Certainly.
ΑΘ.Οὐκοῦν πρῶτον μὲν δεῖ τόδε γε ὑπάρχειν ἅπασιν
ὅσοις συμπαρέπεταί τις χάρις, τοῦτο αὐτὸ μόνον αὐτοῦ τὸ
σπουδαιότατον εἶναι, τινα ὀρθότητα, τὸ τρίτον ὠφελίαν;
οἷον δὴ λέγω ἐδωδῇ μὲν καὶ πόσει καὶ συμπάσῃ τροφῇ
παρέπεσθαι μὲν τὴν χάριν, ἣν ἡδονὴν ἂν προσείποιμεν· ἣν
667c δὲ ὀρθότητά τε καὶ ὠφελίαν, ὅπερ ὑγιεινὸν τῶν προσφερομένων
λέγομεν ἑκάστοτε, τοῦτ' αὐτὸ εἶναι ἐν αὐτοῖς καὶ τὸ
ὀρθότατον.
Ath.Now, in the first place, must it not be true of everything which possesses charm as its concomitant, that its most important element is either this charm in itself, or some form of correctness, or, thirdly, utility? For instance, meat and drink and nutriment in general have, as I say, for concomitant that charm which we should term pleasure; but as regards their correctness and utility, what we call the wholesomeness of each article administered is precisely the most perfect element they contain.
ΚΛ.Πάνυ μὲν οὖν.
Clin.Certainly.
ΑΘ.Καὶ μὴν καὶ τῇ μαθήσει παρακολουθεῖν μὲν τό γε
τῆς χάριτος, τὴν ἡδονήν, τὴν δὲ ὀρθότητα καὶ τὴν ὠφελίαν
καὶ τὸ εὖ καὶ τὸ καλῶς τὴν ἀλήθειαν εἶναι τὴν ἀποτελοῦσαν.
Ath.Learning, too, is accompanied by the element of charm, which is pleasure; but that which produces its correctness and utility, its goodness and nobleness, is truth.
ΚΛ.Ἔστιν οὕτως.
Clin.Quite so.
ΑΘ.Τί δὲ τῇ τῶν ὁμοίων ἐργασίᾳ ὅσαι τέχναι εἰκαστικαί;
667d ἆρ' οὐκ, ἂν τοῦτο ἐξεργάζωνται, τὸ μὲν ἡδονὴν ἐν
αὐτοῖς γίγνεσθαι παρεπόμενον, ἐὰν γίγνηται, χάριν αὐτὸ
δικαιότατον ἂν εἴη προσαγορεύειν;
Ath.Then how about the imitative arts which produce likenesses? If they succeed in their productions, should not any concomitant pleasure which results therefrom be most properly called charm?
ΚΛ.Ναί.
Clin.Yes.
ΑΘ.Τὴν δέ γε ὀρθότητά που τῶν τοιούτων ἰσότης
ἄν, ὡς ἐπὶ τὸ πᾶν εἰπεῖν, ἐξεργάζοιτο τοῦ τε τοσούτου καὶ
τοῦ τοιούτου πρότερον, ἀλλ' οὐχ ἡδονή.
Ath.But, speaking generally, the correctness of these things would be the result not, primarily, of pleasure, but of equality in respect of both quality and quantity.
ΚΛ.Καλῶς.
Clin.Excellent.
ΑΘ.Οὐκοῦν ἡδονῇ κρίνοιτ' ἂν μόνον ἐκεῖνο ὀρθῶς,
μήτε τινὰ ὠφελίαν μήτε ἀλήθειαν μήτε ὁμοιότητα ἀπεργαζόμενον
667e παρέχεται, μηδ' αὖ γε βλάβην, ἀλλ' αὐτοῦ τούτου
μόνου ἕνεκα γίγνοιτο τοῦ συμπαρεπομένου τοῖς ἄλλοις, τῆς
χάριτος, ἣν δὴ κάλλιστά τις ὀνομάσαι ἂν ἡδονήν, ὅταν μηδὲν
αὐτῇ τούτων ἐπακολουθῇ;
Ath.Then we shall rightly judge by the criterion of pleasure that object only which, in its effects, produces neither utility nor truth nor similarity, nor yet harm, and which exists solely for the sake of the concomitant element of charm,—which element will best be named pleasure whenever it is accompanied by none of the other qualities mentioned.
ΚΛ.Ἀβλαβῆ λέγεις ἡδονὴν μόνον.
Clin.You mean only harmless pleasure.
ΑΘ.Ναί, καὶ παιδιάν γε εἶναι τὴν αὐτὴν ταύτην λέγω
τότε, ὅταν μήτε τι βλάπτῃ μήτε ὠφελῇ σπουδῆς λόγου
ἄξιον.
Ath.Yes, and I say that this same pleasure is also play, whenever the harm or good it does is negligible.
ΚΛ.Ἀληθέστατα λέγεις.
Clin.Very true.
ΑΘ.Ἆρ' οὖν οὐ πᾶσαν μίμησιν φαῖμεν ἂν ἐκ τῶν νῦν
λεγομένων ἥκιστα ἡδονῇ προσήκειν κρίνεσθαι καὶ δόξῃ μὴ
668a ἀληθεῖκαὶ δὴ καὶ πᾶσαν ἰσότητα· οὐ γὰρ εἴ τῳ δοκεῖ
μή τις χαίρει τῳ, τό γε ἴσον ἴσον οὐδὲ τὸ σύμμετρον ἂν εἴη
σύμμετρον ὅλωςἀλλὰ τῷ ἀληθεῖ πάντων μάλιστα, ἥκιστα
δὲ ὁτῳοῦν ἄλλῳ;
Ath.Should we not then assert, as a corollary, that no imitation should be judged by the criterion of pleasure or of untrue opinion, nor indeed should any kind of equality be so judged? The reason why the equal is equal, or the symmetrical symmetrical, is not at all because a man so opines, or is charmed thereby, but most of all because of truth, and least of all for any other reason.
ΚΛ.Παντάπασι μὲν οὖν.
Clin.Most certainly.
ΑΘ.Οὐκοῦν μουσικήν γε πᾶσάν φαμεν εἰκαστικήν τε
εἶναι καὶ μιμητικήν;
Ath.We assert, do we not, that all music is representative and imitative?
ΚΛ.Τί μήν;
Clin.Of course.
ΑΘ.Ἥκιστ' ἄρα ὅταν τις μουσικὴν ἡδονῇ φῇ κρίνεσθαι,
τοῦτον ἀποδεκτέον τὸν λόγον, καὶ ζητητέον ἥκιστα ταύτην
668b ὡς σπουδαίαν, εἴ τις ἄρα που καὶ γίγνοιτο, ἀλλ' ἐκείνην τὴν
ἔχουσαν τὴν ὁμοιότητα τῷ τοῦ καλοῦ μιμήματι.
Ath.So whenever a man states that pleasure is the criterion of music, we shall decisively reject his statement; and we shall regard such music as the least important of all (if indeed any music is important) and prefer that which possesses similarity in its imitation of the beautiful.
ΚΛ.Ἀληθέστατα.
Clin.Very true.
ΑΘ.Καὶ τούτοις δὴ τοῖς τὴν καλλίστην ᾠδήν τε ζητοῦσι
καὶ μοῦσαν ζητητέον, ὡς ἔοικεν, οὐχ ἥτις ἡδεῖα ἀλλ' ἥτις
ὀρθή· μιμήσεως γὰρ ἦν, ὥς φαμεν, ὀρθότης, εἰ τὸ μιμηθὲν
ὅσον τε καὶ οἷον ἦν ἀποτελοῖτο.
Ath.Thus those who are seeking the best singing and music must seek, as it appears, not that which is pleasant, but that which is correct; and the correctness of imitation consists, as we say, in the reproduction of the original in its own proper quantity and quality.
ΚΛ.Πῶς γὰρ οὔ;
Clin.Of course.
ΑΘ.Καὶ μὴν τοῦτό γε πᾶς ἂν ὁμολογοῖ περὶ τῆς μουσικῆς,
ὅτι πάντα τὰ περὶ αὐτήν ἐστιν ποιήματα μίμησίς τε
668c καὶ ἀπεικασία· καὶ τοῦτό γε μῶν οὐκ ἂν σύμπαντες ὁμολογοῖεν
ποιηταί τε καὶ ἀκροαταὶ καὶ ὑποκριταί;
Ath.And this is certainly true of music, as everyone would allow,—that all its productions are imitative and representative; that much, at least, they would all admit,—poets, audience, and actors alike, would they not?
ΚΛ.Καὶ μάλα.
Clin.They would.
ΑΘ.Δεῖ δὴ καθ' ἕκαστόν γε, ὡς ἔοικε, γιγνώσκειν τῶν
ποιημάτων ὅτι ποτ' ἐστὶν τὸν μέλλοντα ἐν αὐτῷ μὴ ἁμαρτήσεσθαι·
μὴ γὰρ γιγνώσκων τὴν οὐσίαν, τί ποτε βούλεται
καὶ ὅτου ποτ' ἐστὶν εἰκὼν ὄντως, σχολῇ τήν γε ὀρθότητα
τῆς βουλήσεως καὶ ἁμαρτίαν αὐτοῦ διαγνώσεται.
Ath.Now the man who is to judge a poem unerringly must know in each particular case the exact nature of the poem; for if he does not know its essence,—what its intention is and what the actual original which it represents,—then he will hardly be able to decide how far it succeeds or fails in fulfilling its intention.
ΚΛ.Σχολῇ· πῶς δ' οὔ;
Clin.Hardly, to be sure.
668d ΑΘ. δὲ τὸ ὀρθῶς μὴ γιγνώσκων ἆρ' ἄν ποτε τό γε
εὖ καὶ τὸ κακῶς δυνατὸς εἴη διαγνῶναι; λέγω δὲ οὐ πάνυ
σαφῶς, ἀλλ' ὧδε σαφέστερον ἴσως ἂν λεχθείη.
Ath.And would a man who does not know what constitutes perfection be able to decide as to the goodness or badness of a poem? But I am not making myself quite clear: it might be clearer if I put it in this way—
ΚΛ.Πῶς;
Clin.In what way?
ΑΘ.Εἰσὶν δήπου κατὰ τὴν ὄψιν ἡμῖν ἀπεικασίαι μυρίαι.
Ath.As regards objects of sight we have, of course, thousands of representations.
ΚΛ.Ναί.
Clin.Yes.
ΑΘ.Τί οὖν εἴ τις καὶ ἐν τούτοις ἀγνοοῖ τῶν μεμιμημένων
ὅτι ποτ' ἐστὶν ἕκαστον τῶν σωμάτων; ἆρ' ἄν ποτε
τό γε ὀρθῶς αὐτῶν εἰργασμένον γνοίη; λέγω δὲ τὸ τοιόνδε,
οἷον τοὺς ἀριθμοὺς τοῦ σώματος καὶ ἑκάστων τῶν μερῶν
668e τὰς θέσεις εἰ ἔχει, ὅσοι τέ εἰσιν καὶ ὁποῖα παρ' ὁποῖα αὐτῶν
κείμενα τὴν προσήκουσαν τάξιν ἀπείληφενκαὶ ἔτι δὴ χρώματά
τε καὶ σχήματα πάντα ταῦτα τεταραγμένως εἴργασται·
μῶν δοκεῖ ταῦτ' ἄν ποτε διαγνῶναί τις τὸ παράπαν
ἀγνοῶν ὅτι ποτ' ἐστὶ τὸ μεμιμημένον ζῷον;
Ath.How, then, if in this class of objects a man were to be ignorant of the nature of each of the bodies represented could he ever know whether it is perfectly executed? What I mean is this: whether it preserves the proper dimensions and the positions of each of the bodily parts, and has caught their exact number and the proper order in which one is placed next another, and their colors and shapes as well,—or whether all these things are wrought in a confused manner. Do you suppose that anyone could possibly decide these points if he were totally ignorant as to what animal was being represented?
ΚΛ.Καὶ πῶς;
Clin.How could he?
ΑΘ.Τί δ' εἰ γιγνώσκοιμεν ὅτι τὸ γεγραμμένον τὸ
πεπλασμένον ἐστὶν ἄνθρωπος, καὶ τὰ μέρη πάντα τὰ ἑαυτοῦ
669a καὶ χρώματα ἅμα καὶ σχήματα ἀπείληφεν ὑπὸ τῆς τέχνης;
ἆρά γε ἀναγκαῖον ἤδη τῷ ταῦτα γνόντι καὶ ἐκεῖνο ἑτοίμως
γιγνώσκειν, εἴτε καλὸν εἴτε ὅπῃ ποτὲ ἐλλιπὲς ἂν εἴη κάλλους;
Ath.Well, suppose we should know that the object painted or moulded is a man, and know that art has endowed him with all his proper parts, colors, and shapes,—is it at once inevitable that the person who knows this can easily discern also whether the work is beautiful, or wherein it is deficient in beauty?
ΚΛ.Πάντες μεντἂν ὡς ἔπος εἰπεῖν, ξένε, τὰ καλὰ
τῶν ζῴων ἐγιγνώσκομεν.
Clin.If that were so, Stranger, practically all of us would know what animals are beautiful.
ΑΘ.Ὀρθότατα λέγεις. ἆρ' οὖν οὐ περὶ ἑκάστην εἰκόνα,
καὶ ἐν γραφικῇ καὶ ἐν μουσικῇ καὶ πάντῃ, τὸν μέλλοντα
ἔμφρονα κριτὴν ἔσεσθαι δεῖ ταῦτα τρία ἔχειν, τέ ἐστι
669b πρῶτον γιγνώσκειν, ἔπειτα ὡς ὀρθῶς, ἔπειθ' ὡς εὖ, τὸ
τρίτον, εἴργασται τῶν εἰκόνων ἡτισοῦν ῥήμασί τε καὶ μέλεσι
καὶ τοῖς ῥυθμοῖς;
Ath.You are quite right. In regard, then, to every representation—whether in painting, music or any other art—must not the judicious critic possess these three requisites: first, a knowledge of the nature of the original; next, a knowledge of the correctness of the copy; and thirdly, a knowledge of the excellence with which the copy is executed?
ΚΛ.Ἔοικε γοῦν.
Clin.It would seem so, certainly.
ΑΘ.Μὴ τοίνυν ἀπείπωμεν λέγοντες τὸ περὶ τὴν μουσικὴν
χαλεπόν· ἐπειδὴ γὰρ ὑμνεῖται περὶ αὐτὴν διαφερόντως
τὰς ἄλλας εἰκόνας, εὐλαβείας δὴ δεῖται πλείστης
πασῶν εἰκόνων. ἁμαρτών τε γάρ τις μέγιστ' ἂν βλάπτοιτο,
669c ἤθη κακὰ φιλοφρονούμενος, χαλεπώτατόν τε αἰσθέσθαι διὰ
τὸ τοὺς ποιητὰς φαυλοτέρους εἶναι ποιητὰς αὐτῶν τῶν
Μουσῶν. οὐ γὰρ ἂν ἐκεῖναί γε ἐξαμάρτοιέν ποτε τοσοῦτον
ὥστε ῥήματα ἀνδρῶν ποιήσασαι τὸ χρῶμα γυναικῶν καὶ
μέλος ἀποδοῦναι, καὶ μέλος ἐλευθέρων αὖ καὶ σχήματα
συνθεῖσαι ῥυθμοὺς δούλων καὶ ἀνελευθέρων προσαρμόττειν,
οὐδ' αὖ ῥυθμοὺς καὶ σχῆμα ἐλευθέριον ὑποθεῖσαι μέλος
λόγον ἐναντίον ἀποδοῦναι τοῖς ῥυθμοῖς, ἔτι δὲ θηρίων φωνὰς
669d καὶ ἀνθρώπων καὶ ὀργάνων καὶ πάντας ψόφους εἰς ταὐτὸν
οὐκ ἄν ποτε συνθεῖεν, ὡς ἕν τι μιμούμεναι· ποιηταὶ δὲ
ἀνθρώπινοι σφόδρα τὰ τοιαῦτα ἐμπλέκοντες καὶ συγκυκῶντες
ἀλόγως, γέλωτ' ἂν παρασκευάζοιεν τῶν ἀνθρώπων ὅσους
φησὶν Ὀρφεὺς λαχεῖν ὥραν τῆς τέρψιος. ταῦτά γε γὰρ
ὁρῶσι πάντα κυκώμενα, καὶ ἔτι διασπῶσιν οἱ ποιηταὶ ῥυθμὸν
μὲν καὶ σχήματα μέλους χωρίς, λόγους ψιλοὺς εἰς μέτρα
669e τιθέντες, μέλος δ' αὖ καὶ ῥυθμὸν ἄνευ ῥημάτων, ψιλῇ κιθαρίσει
τε καὶ αὐλήσει προσχρώμενοι, ἐν οἷς δὴ παγχάλεπον
ἄνευ λόγου γιγνόμενον ῥυθμόν τε καὶ ἁρμονίαν γιγνώσκειν
ὅτι τε βούλεται καὶ ὅτῳ ἔοικε τῶν ἀξιολόγων μιμημάτων·
ἀλλὰ ὑπολαβεῖν ἀναγκαῖον ὅτι τὸ τοιοῦτόν γε πολλῆς ἀγροικίας
μεστὸν πᾶν, ὁπόσον τάχους τε καὶ ἀπταισίας καὶ φωνῆς
θηριώδους σφόδρα φίλον ὥστ' αὐλήσει γε χρῆσθαι καὶ
670a κιθαρίσει πλὴν ὅσον ὑπὸ ὄρχησίν τε καὶ ᾠδήν, ψιλῷ δ'
ἑκατέρῳ πᾶσά τις ἀμουσία καὶ θαυματουργία γίγνοιτ' ἂν τῆς
χρήσεως. ταῦτα μὲν ἔχει ταύτῃ λόγον· ἡμεῖς δέ γε οὐχ
ὅτι μὴ δεῖ ταῖς Μούσαις ἡμῶν προσχρῆσθαι τοὺς ἤδη τριακοντούτας
καὶ τῶν πεντήκοντα πέραν γεγονότας σκοπούμεθα,
ἀλλ' ὅτι ποτὲ δεῖ. τόδε μὲν οὖν ἐκ τούτων λόγος ἡμῖν
δοκεῖ μοι σημαίνειν ἤδη, τῆς γε χορικῆς Μούσης ὅτι πεπαιδεῦσθαι
670b δεῖ βέλτιον τοὺς πεντηκοντούτας ὅσοισπερ ἂν ᾄδειν
προσήκῃ. τῶν γὰρ ῥυθμῶν καὶ τῶν ἁρμονιῶν ἀναγκαῖον
αὐτοῖς ἐστιν εὐαισθήτως ἔχειν καὶ γιγνώσκειν· πῶς τις
τὴν ὀρθότητα γνώσεται τῶν μελῶν, προσῆκεν μὴ προςῆκεν
τοῦ δωριστί, καὶ τοῦ ῥυθμοῦ ὃν ποιητὴς αὐτῷ
προσῆψεν, ὀρθῶς μή;
Ath.Let us not hesitate, then, to mention the point wherein lies the difficulty of music. Just because it is more talked about than any other form of representation, it needs more caution than any. The man who blunders in this art will do himself the greatest harm, by welcoming base morals; and, moreover, his blunder is very hard to discern, inasmuch as our poets are inferior as poets to the Muses themselves. For the Muses would never blunder so far as to assign a feminine tune and gesture to verses composed for men, or to fit the rhythms of captives and slaves to gestures framed for free men, or conversely, after constructing the rhythms and gestures of free men, to assign to the rhythms a tune or verses of an opposite style. Nor would the Muses ever combine in a single piece the cries of beasts and men, the clash of instruments, and noises of all kinds, by way of representing a single object; whereas human poets, by their senselessness in mixing such things and jumbling them up together, would furnish a theme for laughter to all the men who, in Orpheus’ phrase, have attained the full flower of joyousness. For they behold all these things jumbled together, and how, also, the poets rudely sunder rhythm and gesture from tune, putting tuneless words into meter, or leaving time and rhythm without words, and using the bare sound of harp or flute, wherein it is almost impossible to understand what is intended by this wordless rhythm and harmony, or what noteworthy original it represents.

Such methods, as one ought to realize, are clownish in the extreme in so far as they exhibit an excessive craving for speed, mechanical accuracy, and the imitation of animals’ sounds, and consequently employ the pipe and the harp without the accompaniment of dance and song; for the use of either of these instruments by itself is the mark of the mountebank or the boor. Enough, then, of that matter: now as to ourselves. What we are considering is, not how those of us who are over thirty years old, or beyond fifty, ought not to make use of the Muses, but how they ought to do so. Our argument already indicates, I think, this result from our discussion,—that all men of over fifty that are fit to sing ought to have a training that is better than that of the choric Muse. For they must of necessity possess knowledge and a quick perception of rhythms and harmonies; else how shall a man know which tunes are correct?

ΚΛ.Δῆλον ὡς οὐδαμῶς.
Clin.Obviously he cannot know this at all.
ΑΘ.Γελοῖος γὰρ γε πολὺς ὄχλος ἡγούμενος ἱκανῶς
γιγνώσκειν τό τε εὐάρμοστον καὶ εὔρυθμον καὶ μή, ὅσοι
προσᾴδειν αὐτῶν καὶ βαίνειν ἐν ῥυθμῷ γεγόνασι διηναγκασμένοι,
670c ὅτι δὲ δρῶσιν ταῦτα ἀγνοοῦντες αὐτῶν ἕκαστα, οὐ
συλλογίζονται. τὸ δέ που προσήκοντα μὲν ἔχον πᾶν μέλος
ὀρθῶς ἔχει, μὴ προσήκοντα δὲ ἡμαρτημένως.
Ath.It is absurd of the general crowd to imagine that they can fully understand what is harmonious and rhythmical, or the reverse, when they have been drilled to sing to the flute or step in time; and they fail to comprehend that, in doing each of these things, they do them in ignorance. But the fact is that every tune which has its appropriate elements is correct, but incorrect if the elements are inappropriate.
ΚΛ.Ἀναγκαιότατα.
Clin.Undoubtedly.
ΑΘ.Τί οὖν μηδ' ὅτι ποτ' ἔχει γιγνώσκων; ἆρα, ὅπερ
εἴπομεν, ὡς ὀρθῶς γε αὐτὸ ἔχει, γνώσεταί ποτε ἐν ὁτῳοῦν;
Ath.What then of the man who does not know in the least what the tune’s elements are? Will he ever know about any tune, as we said, that it is correct?
ΚΛ.Καὶ τίς μηχανή;
Clin.There is no possible means of his doing so.
ΑΘ.Τοῦτ' οὖν, ὡς ἔοικεν, ἀνευρίσκομεν αὖ τὰ νῦν, ὅτι
τοῖς ᾠδοῖς ἡμῖν, οὓς νῦν παρακαλοῦμεν καὶ ἑκόντας τινὰ
670d τρόπον ἀναγκάζομεν ᾄδειν, μέχρι γε τοσούτου πεπαιδεῦσθαι
σχεδὸν ἀναγκαῖον, μέχρι τοῦ δυνατὸν εἶναι συνακολουθεῖν
ἕκαστον ταῖς τε βάσεσιν τῶν ῥυθμῶν καὶ ταῖς χορδαῖς ταῖς
τῶν μελῶν, ἵνα καθορῶντες τάς τε ἁρμονίας καὶ τοὺς ῥυθμούς,
ἐκλέγεσθαί τε τὰ προσήκοντα οἷοί τ' ὦσιν τοῖς τηλικούτοις τε
καὶ τοιούτοις ᾄδειν πρέπον, καὶ οὕτως ᾄδωσιν, καὶ ᾄδοντες αὐτοί
τε ἡδονὰς τὸ παραχρῆμα ἀσινεῖς ἥδωνται καὶ τοῖς νεωτέροις
670e ἡγεμόνες ἠθῶν χρηστῶν ἀσπασμοῦ προσήκοντος γίγνωνται·
μέχρι δὲ τοσούτου παιδευθέντες ἀκριβεστέραν ἂν παιδείαν
τῆς ἐπὶ τὸ πλῆθος φερούσης εἶεν μετακεχειρισμένοι καὶ
τῆς περὶ τοὺς ποιητὰς αὐτούς. τὸ γὰρ τρίτον οὐδεμία ἀνάγκη
ποιητῇ γιγνώσκειν, εἴτε καλὸν εἴτε μὴ καλὸν τὸ μίμημα,
τὸ δὲ ἁρμονίας καὶ ῥυθμοῦ σχεδὸν ἀνάγκη, τοῖς δὲ πάντα
τὰ τρία τῆς ἐκλογῆς ἕνεκα τοῦ καλλίστου καὶ δευτέρου,
671a μηδέποτε ἱκανὸν ἐπῳδὸν γίγνεσθαι νέοις πρὸς ἀρετήν. καὶ
ὅπερ λόγος ἐν ἀρχαῖς ἐβουλήθη, τὴν τῷ τοῦ Διονύσου
χορῷ βοήθειαν ἐπιδεῖξαι καλῶς λεγομένην, εἰς δύναμιν
εἴρηκεν· σκοπώμεθα δὴ εἰ τοῦθ' οὕτω γέγονεν. θορυβώδης
μέν που σύλλογος τοιοῦτος ἐξ ἀνάγκης προϊούσης τῆς
πόσεως ἐπὶ μᾶλλον ἀεὶ συμβαίνει γιγνόμενος, ὅπερ ὑπεθέμεθα
κατ' ἀρχὰς ἀναγκαῖον εἶναι γίγνεσθαι περὶ τῶν νῦν
671b λεγομένων.
Ath.We are now once more, as it appears, discovering the fact that these singers of ours (whom we are now inviting and compelling, so to say, of their own free will to sing) must almost necessarily be trained up to such a point that every one of them may be able to follow both the steps of the rhythms and the chords of the tunes, so that, by observing the harmonies and rhythms, they may be able to select those of an appropriate kind, which it is seemly for men of their own age and character to sing, and may in this wise sing them, and in the singing may not only enjoy innocent pleasure themselves at the moment, but also may serve as leaders to the younger men in their seemly adoption of noble manners. If they were trained up to such a point, their training would be more thorough than that of the majority, or indeed of the poets themselves.

For although it is almost necessary for a poet to have a knowledge of harmony and rhythm, it is not necessary for him to know the third point also—namely, whether the representation is noble or ignoble; but for our older singers a knowledge of all these three points is necessary, to enable them to determine what is first, what second in order of nobility; otherwise none of them will ever succeed in attracting the young to virtue by his incantations. The primary intention of our argument, which was to demonstrate that our defence of the Dionysiac chorus was justifiable, has now been carried out to the best of our ability. Let us consider if that is really so. Such a gathering inevitably tends, as the drinking proceeds, to grow ever more and more uproarious; and in the case of the present day gatherings that is, as we said at the outset, an inevitable result.

ΚΛ.Ἀνάγκη.
Clin.Inevitable.
ΑΘ.Πᾶς δέ γε αὐτὸς αὑτοῦ κουφότερος αἴρεται καὶ
γέγηθέν τε καὶ παρρησίας ἐμπίμπλαται καὶ ἀνηκουστίας ἐν
τῷ τοιούτῳ τῶν πέλας, ἄρχων δ' ἱκανὸς ἀξιοῖ ἑαυτοῦ τε καὶ
τῶν ἄλλων γεγονέναι.
Ath.Everyone is uplifted above his normal self, and is merry and bubbles over with loquacious audacity himself, while turning a deaf ear to his neighbors, and regards himself as competent to rule both himself and everyone else.
ΚΛ.Τί μήν;
Clin.To be sure.
ΑΘ.Οὐκοῦν ἔφαμεν, ὅταν γίγνηται ταῦτα, καθάπερ τινὰ
σίδηρον τὰς ψυχὰς τῶν πινόντων διαπύρους γιγνομένας
μαλθακωτέρας γίγνεσθαι καὶ νεωτέρας, ὥστε εὐαγώγους
671c συμβαίνειν τῷ δυναμένῳ τε καὶ ἐπισταμένῳ παιδεύειν τε
καὶ πλάττειν, καθάπερ ὅτ' ἦσαν νέαι; τοῦτον δ' εἶναι τὸν
πλάστην τὸν αὐτὸν ὥσπερ τότε, τὸν ἀγαθὸν νομοθέτην, οὗ
νόμους εἶναι δεῖ συμποτικούς, δυναμένους τὸν εὔελπιν καὶ
θαρραλέον ἐκεῖνον γιγνόμενον καὶ ἀναισχυντότερον τοῦ
δέοντος, καὶ οὐκ ἐθέλοντα τάξιν καὶ τὸ κατὰ μέρος σιγῆς
καὶ λόγου καὶ πόσεως καὶ μούσης ὑπομένειν, ἐθέλειν ποιεῖν
πάντα τούτοις τἀναντία, καὶ εἰσιόντι τῷ μὴ καλῷ θάρρει
671d τὸν κάλλιστον διαμαχόμενον φόβον εἰσπέμπειν οἵους τ'
εἶναι μετὰ δίκης, ὃν αἰδῶ τε καὶ αἰσχύνην θεῖον φόβον
ὠνομάκαμεν;
Ath.And did we not say that when this takes place, the souls of the drinkers turn softer, like iron, through being heated, and younger too; whence they become ductile, just as when they were young, in the hands of the man who has the skill and the ability to train and mould them. And now, even as then, the man who is to mould them is the good legislator; he must lay down banqueting laws, able to control that banqueter who becomes confident and bold and unduly shameless, and unwilling to submit to the proper limits of silence and speech, of drinking and of music, making him consent to do in all ways the opposite,— laws able also, with the aid of justice, to fight against the entrance of such ignoble audacity, by bringing in that most noble fear which we have named modesty and shame.
ΚΛ.Ἔστιν ταῦτα.
Clin.That is so.
ΑΘ.Τούτων δέ γε τῶν νόμων εἶναι νομοφύλακας καὶ
συνδημιουργοὺς αὐτοῖς τοὺς ἀθορύβους καὶ νήφοντας τῶν
μὴ νηφόντων στρατηγούς, ὧν δὴ χωρὶς μέθῃ διαμάχεσθαι
δεινότερον πολεμίοις εἶναι μὴ μετὰ ἀρχόντων ἀθορύβων,
καὶ τὸν αὖ μὴ δυνάμενον ἐθέλειν πείθεσθαι τούτοις καὶ τοῖς
671e ἡγεμόσιν τοῖς τοῦ Διονύσου, τοῖς ὑπὲρ ἑξήκοντα ἔτη γεγονόσιν,
ἴσην καὶ μείζω τὴν αἰσχύνην φέρειν τὸν τοῖς
τοῦ Ἄρεως ἀπειθοῦντα ἄρχουσιν.
Ath.And as law-wardens of these laws and cooperators therewith, there must be sober and sedate men to act as commanders over the un-sober; for to fight drunkenness without these would be a more formidable task than to fight enemies without sedate leaders. Any man who refuses willingly to obey these men and the officers of Dionysus (who are over sixty years of age) shall incur as much disgrace as the man who disobeys the officers of Ares, and even more.
ΚΛ.Ὀρθῶς.
Clin.Quite right.
ΑΘ.Οὐκοῦν εἴ γε εἴη τοιαύτη μὲν μέθη, τοιαύτη δὲ
παιδιά, μῶν οὐκ ὠφεληθέντες ἂν οἱ τοιοῦτοι συμπόται καὶ
μᾶλλον φίλοι πρότερον ἀπαλλάττοιντο ἀλλήλων, ἀλλ' οὐχ
672a ὥσπερ τὰ νῦν ἐχθροί, κατὰ νόμους δὲ πᾶσαν τὴν συνουσίαν
συγγενόμενοι καὶ ἀκολουθήσαντες, ὁπότε ἀφηγοῖντο οἱ
νήφοντες τοῖς μὴ νήφουσιν;
Ath.If such was the character of the drinking and of the recreation, would not such fellow-drinkers be the better for it, and part from one another better friends than before, instead of enemies, as now? For they would be guided by laws in all their intercourse, and would listen to the directions given to the un-sober by the sober.
ΚΛ.Ὀρθῶς, εἴ γε δὴ εἴη τοιαύτη οἵαν νῦν λέγεις.
Clin.True, if it really were of the character you describe.
ΑΘ.Μὴ τοίνυν ἐκεῖνό γ' ἔτι τῆς τοῦ Διονύσου δωρεᾶς
ψέγωμεν ἁπλῶς, ὡς ἔστιν κακὴ καὶ εἰς πόλιν οὐκ ἀξία
παραδέχεσθαι. καὶ γὰρ ἔτι πλείω τις ἂν ἐπεξέλθοι λέγων·
ἐπεὶ καὶ τὸ μέγιστον ἀγαθὸν δωρεῖται λέγειν μὲν ὄκνος
εἰς τοὺς πολλοὺς διὰ τὸ κακῶς τοὺς ἀνθρώπους αὐτὸ ὑπολαβεῖν
672b καὶ γνῶναι λεχθέν.
Ath.Then we must no longer, without qualification, bring that old charge against the gift of Dionysus, that it is bad and unworthy of admittance into a State. Indeed, one might enlarge considerably on this subject; for the greatest benefit that gift confers is one which one hesitates to declare to the multitude, since, when declared, it is misconceived and misunderstood.
ΚΛ.Τὸ ποῖον δή;
Clin.What is that?
ΑΘ.Λόγος τις ἅμα καὶ φήμη ὑπορρεῖ πως ὡς θεὸς
οὗτος ὑπὸ τῆς μητρυᾶς Ἥρας διεφορήθη τῆς ψυχῆς τὴν
γνώμην, διὸ τάς τε βακχείας καὶ πᾶσαν τὴν μανικὴν ἐμβάλλει
χορείαν τιμωρούμενος· ὅθεν καὶ τὸν οἶνον ἐπὶ τοῦτ'
αὐτὸ δεδώρηται. ἐγὼ δὲ τὰ μὲν τοιαῦτα τοῖς ἀσφαλὲς ἡγουμένοις
εἶναι λέγειν περὶ θεῶν ἀφίημι λέγειν, τὸ δὲ τοσόνδε
672c οἶδα, ὅτι πᾶν ζῷον, ὅσον αὐτῷ προσήκει νοῦν ἔχειν τελεωθέντι,
τοῦτον καὶ τοσοῦτον οὐδὲν ἔχον ποτὲ φύεται· ἐν
τούτῳ δὴ τῷ χρόνῳ ἐν μήπω κέκτηται τὴν οἰκείαν φρόνησιν,
πᾶν μαίνεταί τε καὶ βοᾷ ἀτάκτως, καὶ ὅταν ἀκταινώσῃ
ἑαυτὸ τάχιστα, ἀτάκτως αὖ πηδᾷ. ἀναμνησθῶμεν δὲ ὅτι
μουσικῆς τε καὶ γυμναστικῆς ἔφαμεν ἀρχὰς ταύτας εἶναι.
Ath.There is a secret stream of story and report to the effect that the god Dionysus was robbed of his soul’s judgment by his stepmother Hera, and that in vengeance therefor he brought in Bacchic rites and all the frenzied choristry, and with the same aim bestowed also the gift of wine. These matters, however, I leave to those who think it safe to say them about deities; but this much I know,—that no creature is ever born in possession of that reason, or that amount of reason, which properly belongs to it when fully developed; consequently, every creature, during the period when it is still lacking in its proper intelligence, continues all in a frenzy, crying out wildly, and, as soon as it can get on its feet, leaping wildly. Let us remember how we said that in this we have the origin of music and gymnastic.
ΚΛ.Μεμνήμεθα· τί δ' οὔ;
Clin.We remember that, of course.
ΑΘ.Οὐκοῦν καὶ ὅτι τὴν ῥυθμοῦ τε καὶ ἁρμονίας αἴσθησιν
672d τοῖς ἀνθρώποις ἡμῖν ἐνδεδωκέναι τὴν ἀρχὴν ταύτην
ἔφαμεν, Ἀπόλλωνα δὲ καὶ Μούσας καὶ Διόνυσον θεῶν
αἰτίους γεγονέναι;
Ath.Do we not also remember how we said that from this origin there was implanted in us men the sense of rhythm and harmony, and that the joint authors thereof were Apollo and the Muses and the god Dionysus?
ΚΛ.Πῶς γὰρ οὔ;
Clin.Certainly we remember.
ΑΘ.Καὶ δὴ καὶ τὸν οἶνόν γε, ὡς ἔοικεν, τῶν ἄλλων
λόγος, ἵνα μανῶμεν, φησὶν ἐπὶ τιμωρίᾳ τῇ τῶν ἀνθρώπων
δεδόσθαι· δὲ νῦν λεγόμενος ὑφ' ἡμῶν φάρμακον ἐπὶ τοὐναντίον
φησὶν αἰδοῦς μὲν ψυχῆς κτήσεως ἕνεκα δεδόσθαι,
σώματος δὲ ὑγιείας τε καὶ ἰσχύος.
Ath.Moreover, as to wine, the account given by other people apparently is that it was bestowed on us men as a punishment, to make us mad; but our own account, on the contrary, declares that it is a medicine given for the purpose of securing modesty of soul and health and strength of body.
ΚΛ.Κάλλιστα, ξένε, τὸν λόγον ἀπεμνημόνευκας.
Clin.You have recalled our account admirably, Stranger.
672e ΑΘ.Καὶ τὰ μὲν δὴ τῆς χορείας ἡμίσεα διαπεπεράνθω·
τὰ δ' ἡμίσεα, ὅπως ἂν ἔτι δοκῇ, περανοῦμεν καὶ
ἐάσομεν.
Ath.We may say, then, that the one half of the subject of choristry has now been disposed of. Shall we proceed at once to deal with the other half in whatever way seems best, or shall we leave it alone?
ΚΛ.Ποῖα δὴ λέγεις, καὶ πῶς ἑκάτερα διαιρῶν;
Clin.What halves do you mean? How are you dividing the subject?
ΑΘ.Ὅλη μέν που χορεία ὅλη παίδευσις ἦν ἡμῖν, τούτου
δ' αὖ τὸ μὲν ῥυθμοί τε καὶ ἁρμονίαι, τὸ κατὰ τὴν φωνήν.
Ath.In our view, choristry as a whole is identical with education as a whole; and the part of this concerned with the voice consists of rhythms and harmonies.
ΚΛ.Ναί.
Clin.Yes.
ΑΘ.Τὸ δέ γε κατὰ τὴν τοῦ σώματος κίνησιν ῥυθμὸν
μὲν κοινὸν τῇ τῆς φωνῆς εἶχε κινήσει, σχῆμα δὲ ἴδιον.
673a ἐκεῖ δὲ μέλος τῆς φωνῆς κίνησις.
Ath.And the part concerned with bodily motion possesses, in common with vocal motion, rhythm; besides which it possesses gesture as its own peculiar attribute, just as tune is the peculiar attribute of vocal motion.
ΚΛ.Ἀληθέστατα.
Clin.Very true.
ΑΘ.Τὰ μὲν τοίνυν τῆς φωνῆς μέχρι τῆς ψυχῆς πρὸς
ἀρετὴν παιδείας οὐκ οἶδ' ὅντινα τρόπον ὠνομάσαμεν μουσικήν.
Ath.Now the vocal actions which pertain to the training of the soul in excellence we ventured somehow to name music.
ΚΛ.Ὀρθῶς μὲν οὖν.
Clin.And rightly so.
ΑΘ.Τὰ δέ γε τοῦ σώματος, παιζόντων ὄρχησιν εἴπομεν,
ἐὰν μέχρι τῆς τοῦ σώματος ἀρετῆς τοιαύτη κίνησις
γίγνηται, τὴν ἔντεχνον ἀγωγὴν ἐπὶ τὸ τοιοῦτον αὐτοῦ
γυμναστικὴν προσείπωμεν.
Ath.As regards the bodily actions which we called playful dancing,—if such action attains to bodily excellence, we may term the technical guidance of the body to this end gymnastic.
ΚΛ.Ὀρθότατα.
Clin.Quite rightly.
673b ΑΘ.Τὸ δὲ τῆς μουσικῆς, νυνδὴ σχεδὸν ἥμισυ διεληλυθέναι
τῆς χορείας εἴπομεν καὶ διαπεπεράνθαι, καὶ νῦν
οὕτως εἰρήσθω· τὸ δ' ἥμισυ λέγωμεν, πῶς καὶ πῇ ποιητέον;
Ath.As to music, which was referred to when we said a moment ago that the one half of choristry had been described and disposed of,—let us say the same of it now; but as to the other half, are we to speak about it, or what are we to do?
ΚΛ. ἄριστε, Κρησὶν καὶ Λακεδαιμονίοις διαλεγόμενος,
μουσικῆς πέρι διελθόντων ἡμῶν, ἐλλειπόντων δὲ γυμναστικῆς,
τί ποτε οἴει σοι πότερον ἡμῶν ἀποκρινεῖσθαι πρὸς
ταύτην τὴν ἐρώτησιν;
Clin.My good sir, you are conversing with Cretans and Lacedaemonians, and we have discussed the subject of music; what reply, then, to your question do you suppose that either of us will make, when the subject left still untouched is gymnastic?
ΑΘ.Ἀποκεκρίσθαι ἔγωγ' ἄν σε φαίην σχεδὸν ταῦτ'
673c ἐρόμενον σαφῶς, καὶ μανθάνω ὡς ἐρώτησις οὖσα αὕτη
τὰ νῦν ἀπόκρισίς τέ ἐστιν, ὡς εἶπον, καὶ ἔτι πρόσταξις
διαπεράνασθαι τὰ περὶ γυμναστικῆς.
Ath.You have given me a pretty clear answer, I should say, in putting this question; although it is a question, I understand it to be also (as I say) an answer—or rather, an actual injunction to give a full account of gymnastic.
ΚΛ.Ἄρισθ' ὑπέλαβές τε καὶ οὕτω δὴ ποίει.
Clin.You have grasped my meaning excellently: please do so.
ΑΘ.Ποιητέον· οὐδὲ γὰρ πάνυ χαλεπόν ἐστιν εἰπεῖν ὑμῖν
γε ἀμφοτέροις γνώριμα. πολὺ γὰρ ἐν ταύτῃ τῇ τέχνῃ πλέον
ἐμπειρίας ἐν ἐκείνῃ μετέχετε.
Ath.Do it I must; and indeed it is no very hard task to speak of things well known to you both. For you are far better acquainted with this art than with the other.
ΚΛ.Σχεδὸν ἀληθῆ λέγεις.
Clin.That is about true.
ΑΘ.Οὐκοῦν αὖ ταύτης ἀρχὴ μὲν τῆς παιδιᾶς τὸ κατὰ
673d φύσιν πηδᾶν εἰθίσθαι πᾶν ζῷον, τὸ δὲ ἀνθρώπινον, ὡς
ἔφαμεν, αἴσθησιν λαβὸν τοῦ ῥυθμοῦ ἐγέννησέν τε ὄρχησιν
καὶ ἔτεκεν, τοῦ δὲ μέλους ὑπομιμνῄσκοντος καὶ ἐγείροντος
τὸν ῥυθμόν, κοινωθέντ' ἀλλήλοις χορείαν καὶ παιδιὰν ἐτεκέτην.
Ath.The origin of the play we are speaking of is to be found in the habitual tendency of every living creature to leap; and the human creature, by acquiring, as we said, a sense of rhythm, generated and brought forth dancing; and since the rhythm is suggested and awakened by the tune, the union of these two brought forth choristry and play.
ΚΛ.Ἀληθέστατα.
Clin.Very true.
ΑΘ.Καὶ τὸ μέν, φαμέν, ἤδη διεληλύθαμεν αὐτοῦ, τὸ δὲ
πειρασόμεθα ἐφεξῆς διελθεῖν.
Ath.Of choristry we have already discussed the one part, and we shall next endeavor to discuss the other part.
ΚΛ.Πάνυ μὲν οὖν.
Clin.By all means.
ΑΘ.Ἐπὶ τοίνυν τῇ τῆς μέθης χρείᾳ τὸν κολοφῶνα
673e πρῶτον ἐπιθῶμεν, εἰ καὶ σφῷν συνδοκεῖ.
Ath.But, if you both agree, let us first put the finishing stroke to our discourse on the use of drink.
ΚΛ.Ποῖον δὴ καὶ τίνα λέγεις;
Clin.What, or what kind of, finish do you mean?
ΑΘ.Εἰ μέν τις πόλις ὡς οὔσης σπουδῆς τῷ ἐπιτηδεύματι
τῷ νῦν εἰρημένῳ χρήσεται μετὰ νόμων καὶ τάξεως,
ὡς τοῦ σωφρονεῖν ἕνεκα μελέτῃ χρωμένη, καὶ τῶν ἄλλων
ἡδονῶν μὴ ἀφέξεται ὡσαύτως καὶ κατὰ τὸν αὐτὸν λόγον,
τοῦ κρατεῖν αὐτῶν ἕνεκα μηχανωμένη, τοῦτον μὲν τὸν
τρόπον ἅπασι τούτοις χρηστέον· εἰ δ' ὡς παιδιᾷ τε, καὶ
ἐξέσται τῷ βουλομένῳ καὶ ὅταν βούληται καὶ μεθ' ὧν ἂν
674a βούληται πίνειν μετ' ἐπιτηδευμάτων ὡντινωνοῦν ἄλλων, οὐκ
ἂν τιθείμην ταύτην τὴν ψῆφον, ὡς δεῖ ποτε μέθῃ χρῆσθαι
ταύτην τὴν πόλιν τοῦτον τὸν ἄνδρα, ἀλλ' ἔτι μᾶλλον τῆς
Κρητῶν καὶ Λακεδαιμονίων χρείας προσθείμην ἂν τῷ τῶν
Καρχηδονίων νόμῳ, μηδέποτε μηδένα ἐπὶ στρατοπέδου γεύεσθαι
τούτου τοῦ πώματος, ἀλλ' ὑδροποσίαις συγγίγνεσθαι
τοῦτον τὸν χρόνον ἅπαντα, καὶ κατὰ πόλιν μήτε δούλην
μήτε δοῦλον γεύεσθαι μηδέποτε, μηδὲ ἄρχοντας τοῦτον τὸν
674b ἐνιαυτὸν ὃν ἂν ἄρχωσιν, μηδ' αὖ κυβερνήτας μηδὲ δικαστὰς
ἐνεργοὺς ὄντας οἴνου γεύεσθαι τὸ παράπαν, μηδ' ὅστις βουλευσόμενος
εἰς βουλὴν ἀξίαν τινὰ λόγου συνέρχεται, μηδέ
γε μεθ' ἡμέραν μηδένα τὸ παράπαν εἰ μὴ σωμασκίας
νόσων ἕνεκα, μηδ' αὖ νύκτωρ ὅταν ἐπινοῇ τις παῖδας
ποιεῖσθαι ἀνὴρ καὶ γυνή. καὶ ἄλλα δὲ πάμπολλα ἄν τις
λέγοι ἐν οἷς τοῖς νοῦν τε καὶ νόμον ἔχουσιν ὀρθὸν οὐ ποτέος
674c οἶνος· ὥστε κατὰ τὸν λόγον τοῦτον οὐδ' ἀμπελώνων ἂν πολλῶν
δέοι οὐδ' ᾗτινι πόλει, τακτὰ δὲ τά τ' ἄλλ' ἂν εἴη γεωργήματα
καὶ πᾶσα δίαιτα, καὶ δὴ τά γε περὶ οἶνον σχεδὸν
ἁπάντων ἐμμετρότατα καὶ ὀλίγιστα γίγνοιτ' ἄν. οὗτος,
ξένοι, ἡμῖν, εἰ συνδοκεῖ, κολοφὼν ἐπὶ τῷ περὶ οἴνου λόγῳ
ῥηθέντι εἰρήσθω.
Ath.If a State shall make use of the institution now mentioned in a lawful and orderly manner, regarding it in a serious light and practising it with a view to temperance, and if in like manner and with a like object, aiming at the mastery of them, it shall allow indulgence in all other pleasures,—then they must all be made use of in the manner described.

But if, on the other hand, this institution is regarded in the light of play, and if anyone that likes is to be allowed to drink whenever he likes and with any companions he likes, and that in conjunction with all sorts of other institutions,—then I would refuse to vote for allowing such a State or such an individual ever to indulge in drink, and I would go even beyond the practice of the Cretans and Lacedaemonians; and to the Carthaginian law, which ordains that no soldier on the march should ever taste of this potion, but confine himself for the whole of the time to water-drinking only, I would add this, that in the city also no bondsman or bondsmaid should ever taste of it; and that magistrates during their year of office, and pilots and judges while on duty, should taste no wine at all; nor should any councillor, while attending any important council; nor should anyone whatever taste of it at all, except for reasons of bodily training or health, in the daytime; nor should anyone do so by night—be he man or woman—when proposing to procreate children. Many other occasions, also, might be mentioned when wine should not be drunk by men who are swayed by right reason and law. Hence, according to this argument, there would be no need for any State to have a large number of vineyards; and while all the other agricultural products, and all the foodstuffs, would be controlled, the production of wine especially would be kept within the smallest and most modest dimensions. Let this, then, Strangers, if you agree, be the finishing stroke which we put to our discourse concerning wine.

ΚΛ.Καλῶς, καὶ συνδοκεῖ.
Clin.Very good; we quite agree.