Burnet (OCT, 1907) · Bury (1926)
Bury (1926)
624a ΑΘ.Θεὸς τις ἀνθρώπων ὑμῖν, ξένοι, εἴληφε τὴν
αἰτίαν τῆς τῶν νόμων διαθέσεως;
Ath.To whom do you ascribe the authorship of your legal arrangements, Strangers? To a god or to some man?
ΚΛ.Θεός, ξένε, θεός, ὥς γε τὸ δικαιότατον εἰπεῖν·
παρὰ μὲν ἡμῖν Ζεύς, παρὰ δὲ Λακεδαιμονίοις, ὅθεν ὅδε
ἐστίν, οἶμαι φάναι τούτους Ἀπόλλωνα. γάρ;
Clin.To a god, Stranger, most rightfully to a god. We Cretans call Zeus our lawgiver; while in Lacedaemon, where our friend here has his home, I believe they claim Apollo as theirs. Is not that so, Megillus?
ΜΕ.Ναί.
Meg.Yes.
ΑΘ.Μῶν οὖν καθ' Ὅμηρον λέγεις ὡς τοῦ Μίνω φοιτῶντος
624b πρὸς τὴν τοῦ πατρὸς ἑκάστοτε συνουσίαν δι' ἐνάτου
ἔτους καὶ κατὰ τὰς παρ' ἐκείνου φήμας ταῖς πόλεσιν ὑμῖν
θέντος τοὺς νόμους;
Ath.Do you then, like Homer, say that Minos used to go every ninth year to hold converse with his father Zeus, and that he was guided by his divine oracles in laying down the laws for your cities?
ΚΛ.Λέγεται γὰρ οὕτω παρ' ἡμῖν· καὶ δὴ καὶ τὸν ἀδελφόν
γε αὐτοῦ Ῥαδάμανθυνἀκούετε γὰρ τὸ ὄνομαδικαιότατον
625a γεγονέναι. τοῦτον οὖν φαῖμεν ἂν ἡμεῖς γε οἱ Κρῆτες,
ἐκ τοῦ τότε διανέμειν τὰ περὶ τὰς δίκας, ὀρθῶς τοῦτον τὸν
ἔπαινον αὐτὸν εἰληφέναι.
Clin.So our people say. And they say also that his brother Rhadamanthys,—no doubt you have heard the name,—was exceedingly just. And certainly we Cretans would maintain that he won this title owing to his righteous administration of justice in those days.
ΑΘ.Καὶ καλόν γε τὸ κλέος ὑεῖ τε Διὸς μάλα πρέπον.
ἐπειδὴ δὲ ἐν τοιούτοις ἤθεσι τέθραφθε νομικοῖς σύ τε καὶ
ὅδε, προσδοκῶ οὐκ ἂν ἀηδῶς περί τε πολιτείας τὰ νῦν
καὶ νόμων τὴν διατριβήν, λέγοντάς τε καὶ ἀκούοντας ἅμα κατὰ
625b τὴν πορείαν, ποιήσασθαι. πάντως δ' γε ἐκ Κνωσοῦ ὁδὸς
εἰς τὸ τοῦ Διὸς ἄντρον καὶ ἱερόν, ὡς ἀκούομεν, ἱκανή, καὶ
ἀνάπαυλαι κατὰ τὴν ὁδόν, ὡς εἰκός, πνίγους ὄντος τὰ νῦν,
ἐν τοῖς ὑψηλοῖς δένδρεσίν εἰσι σκιαραί, καὶ ταῖς ἡλικίαις
πρέπον ἂν ἡμῶν εἴη τὸ διαναπαύεσθαι πυκνὰ ἐν αὐταῖς,
λόγοις τε ἀλλήλους παραμυθουμένους τὴν ὁδὸν ἅπασαν οὕτω
μετὰ ῥᾳστώνης διαπερᾶναι.
Ath.Yes, his renown is indeed glorious and well befitting a son of Zeus. And, since you and our friend Megillus were both brought up in legal institutions of so noble a kind, you would, I imagine, have no aversion to our occupying ourselves as we go along in discussion on the subject of government and laws. Certainly, as I am told, the road from Cnosus to the cave and temple of Zeus is a long one, and we are sure to find, in this sultry weather, shady resting-places among the high trees along the road: in them we can rest ofttimes, as befits our age, beguiling the time with discourse, and thus complete our journey in comfort.
ΚΛ.Καὶ μὴν ἔστιν γε, ξένε, προϊόντι κυπαρίττων τε
625c ἐν τοῖς ἄλσεσιν ὕψη καὶ κάλλη θαυμάσια, καὶ λειμῶνες ἐν
οἷσιν ἀναπαυόμενοι διατρίβοιμεν ἄν.
Clin.True, Stranger; and as one proceeds further one finds in the groves cypress-trees of wonderful height and beauty, and meadows too, where we may rest ourselves and talk.
ΑΘ.Ὀρθῶς λέγεις.
Ath.You say well.
ΚΛ.Πάνυ μὲν οὖν· ἰδόντες δὲ μᾶλλον φήσομεν. ἀλλ'
ἴωμεν ἀγαθῇ τύχῃ.
Clin.Yes, indeed: and when we set eyes on them we shall say so still more emphatically. So let us be going, and good luck attend us.
ΑΘ.Ταῦτ' εἴη. καί μοι λέγε· κατὰ τί τὰ συσσίτιά
τε ὑμῖν συντέταχεν νόμος καὶ τὰ γυμνάσια καὶ τὴν τῶν
ὅπλων ἕξιν;
Ath.Amen! And tell me now, for what reason did your law ordain the common meals you have, and your gymnastic schools and military equipment?
ΚΛ.Οἶμαι μέν, ξένε, καὶ παντὶ ῥᾴδιον ὑπολαβεῖν εἶναι
τά γε ἡμέτερα. τὴν γὰρ τῆς χώρας πάσης Κρήτης φύσιν
625d ὁρᾶτε ὡς οὐκ ἔστι, καθάπερ τῶν Θετταλῶν, πεδιάς, διὸ
δὴ καὶ τοῖς μὲν ἵπποις ἐκεῖνοι χρῶνται μᾶλλον, δρόμοισιν
δὲ ἡμεῖς· ἥδε γὰρ ἀνώμαλος αὖ καὶ πρὸς τὴν τῶν πεζῇ
δρόμων ἄσκησιν μᾶλλον σύμμετρος. ἐλαφρὰ δὴ τὰ ὅπλα
ἀναγκαῖον ἐν τῷ τοιούτῳ κεκτῆσθαι καὶ μὴ βάρος ἔχοντα
θεῖν· τῶν δὴ τόξων καὶ τοξευμάτων κουφότης ἁρμόττειν
δοκεῖ. ταῦτ' οὖν πρὸς τὸν πόλεμον ἡμῖν ἅπαντα ἐξήρτυται,
625e καὶ πάνθ' νομοθέτης, ὥς γ' ἐμοὶ φαίνεται, πρὸς τοῦτο βλέπων
συνετάττετο· ἐπεὶ καὶ τὰ συσσίτια κινδυνεύει συναγαγεῖν,
ὁρῶν ὡς πάντες ὁπόταν στρατεύωνται, τόθ' ὑπ' αὐτοῦ
τοῦ πράγματος ἀναγκάζονται φυλακῆς αὑτῶν ἕνεκα συσσιτεῖν
τοῦτον τὸν χρόνον. ἄνοιαν δή μοι δοκεῖ καταγνῶναι τῶν
πολλῶν ὡς οὐ μανθανόντων ὅτι πόλεμος ἀεὶ πᾶσιν διὰ βίου
συνεχής ἐστι πρὸς ἁπάσας τὰς πόλεις· εἰ δὴ πολέμου γε
ὄντος φυλακῆς ἕνεκα δεῖ συσσιτεῖν καί τινας ἄρχοντας καὶ
626a ἀρχομένους διακεκοσμημένους εἶναι φύλακας αὐτῶν, τοῦτο
καὶ ἐν εἰρήνῃ δραστέον. ἣν γὰρ καλοῦσιν οἱ πλεῖστοι τῶν
ἀνθρώπων εἰρήνην, τοῦτ' εἶναι μόνον ὄνομα, τῷ δ' ἔργῳ
πάσαις πρὸς πάσας τὰς πόλεις ἀεὶ πόλεμον ἀκήρυκτον κατὰ
φύσιν εἶναι. καὶ σχεδὸν ἀνευρήσεις, οὕτω σκοπῶν, τὸν
Κρητῶν νομοθέτην ὡς εἰς τὸν πόλεμον ἅπαντα δημοσίᾳ καὶ
ἰδίᾳ τὰ νόμιμα ἡμῖν ἀποβλέπων συνετάξατο, καὶ κατὰ ταῦτα
626b οὕτω φυλάττειν παρέδωκε τοὺς νόμους, ὡς τῶν ἄλλων οὐδενὸς
οὐδὲν ὄφελος ὂν οὔτε κτημάτων οὔτ' ἐπιτηδευμάτων, ἂν
μὴ τῷ πολέμῳ ἄρα κρατῇ τις, πάντα δὲ τὰ τῶν νικωμένων
ἀγαθὰ τῶν νικώντων γίγνεσθαι.
Clin.Our Cretan customs, Stranger, are, as I think, such as anyone may grasp easily. As you may notice, Crete, as a whole, is not a level country, like Thessaly: consequently, whereas the Thessalians mostly go on horseback, we Cretans are runners, since this land of ours is rugged and more suitable for the practice of foot-running. Under these conditions we are obliged to have light armour for running and to avoid heavy equipment; so bows and arrows are adopted as suitable because of their lightness. Thus all these customs of ours are adapted for war, and, in my opinion, this was the object which the lawgiver had in view when he ordained them all. Probably this was his reason also for instituting common meals: he saw how soldiers, all the time they are on campaign, are obliged by force of circumstances to mess in common, for the sake of their own security. And herein, as I think, he condemned the stupidity of the mass of men in failing to perceive that all are involved ceaselessly in a lifelong war against all States.

If, then, these practices are necessary in war,—namely, messing in common for safety’s sake, and the appointment of relays of officers and privates to act as guards,— they must be carried out equally in time of peace. For (as he would say) peace, as the term is commonly employed, is nothing more than a name, the truth being that every State is, by a law of nature, engaged perpetually in an informal war with every other State. And if you look at the matter from this point of view you will find it practically true that our Cretan lawgiver ordained all our legal usages, both public and private, with an eye to war, and that he therefore charged us with the task of guarding our laws safely, in the conviction that without victory in war nothing else, whether possession or institution, is of the least value, but all the goods of the vanquished fall into the hands of the victors.

ΑΘ.Καλῶς γε, ξένε, φαίνῃ μοι γεγυμνάσθαι πρὸς τὸ
διειδέναι τὰ Κρητῶν νόμιμα. τόδε δέ μοι φράζε ἔτι σαφέστερον·
ὃν γὰρ ὅρον ἔθου τῆς εὖ πολιτευομένης πόλεως,
626c δοκεῖς μοι λέγειν οὕτω κεκοσμημένην οἰκεῖν δεῖν, ὥστε
πολέμῳ νικᾶν τὰς ἄλλας πόλεις. γάρ;
Ath.Your training, Stranger, has certainly, as it seems to me, given you an excellent understanding of the legal practices of Crete. But tell me this more clearly still: by the definition you have given of the well-constituted State you appear to me to imply that it ought to be organized in such a way as to be victorious in war over all other States. Is that so?
ΚΛ.Πάνυ μὲν οὖν· οἶμαι δὲ καὶ τῷδε οὕτω συνδοκεῖν.
Clin.Certainly it is; and I think that our friend here shares my opinion.
ΜΕ.Πῶς γὰρ ἂν ἄλλως ἀποκρίναιτο, θεῖε, Λακεδαιμονίων
γε ὁστισοῦν;
Meg.No Lacedaemonian, my good sir, could possibly say otherwise.
ΑΘ.Πότερ' οὖν δὴ πόλεσι μὲν πρὸς πόλεις ὀρθὸν τοῦτ'
ἐστί, κώμῃ δὲ πρὸς κώμην ἕτερον;
Ath.If this, then, is the right attitude for a State to adopt towards a State, is the right attitude for village towards village different?
ΚΛ.Οὐδαμῶς.
Clin.By no means.
ΑΘ.Ἀλλὰ ταὐτόν;
Ath.It is the same, you say?
ΚΛ.Ναί.
Clin.Yes.
ΑΘ.Τί δέ; πρὸς οἰκίαν οἰκίᾳ τῶν ἐν τῇ κώμῃ, καὶ πρὸς
ἄνδρα ἀνδρὶ ἑνὶ πρὸς ἕνα, ταὐτὸν ἔτι;
Ath.Well then, is the same attitude right also for one house in the village towards another, and for each man towards every other?
ΚΛ.Ταὐτόν.
Clin.It is.
626d ΑΘ.Αὐτῷ δὲ πρὸς αὑτὸν πότερον ὡς πολεμίῳ πρὸς
πολέμιον διανοητέον; πῶς ἔτι λέγομεν;
Ath.And must each individual man regard himself as his own enemy? Or what do we say when we come to this point?
ΚΛ. ξένε Ἀθηναῖεοὐ γάρ σε Ἀττικὸν ἐθέλοιμ' ἂν
προσαγορεύειν· δοκεῖς γάρ μοι τῆς θεοῦ ἐπωνυμίας ἄξιος
εἶναι μᾶλλον ἐπονομάζεσθαι· τὸν γὰρ λόγον ἐπ' ἀρχὴν
ὀρθῶς ἀναγαγὼν σαφέστερον ἐποίησας, ὥστε ῥᾷον ἀνευρήσεις
ὅτι νυνδὴ ὑφ' ἡμῶν ὀρθῶς ἐρρήθη τὸ πολεμίους εἶναι
πάντας πᾶσιν δημοσίᾳ τε, καὶ ἰδίᾳ ἑκάστους αὐτοὺς σφίσιν
αὐτοῖς.
Clin.O Stranger of Athens, for I should be loth to call you a man of Attica, since methinks you deserve rather to be named after the goddess Athena, seeing that you have made the argument more clear by taking it back again to its starting-point; whereby you will the more easily discover the justice of our recent statement that, in the mass, all men are both publicly and privately the enemies of all, and individually also each man is his own enemy.
626e ΑΘ.Πῶς εἴρηκας, θαυμάσιε;
Ath.What is your meaning, my admirable sir?
ΚΛ.Κἀνταῦθα, ξένε, τὸ νικᾶν αὐτὸν αὑτὸν πασῶν
νικῶν πρώτη τε καὶ ἀρίστη, τὸ δὲ ἡττᾶσθαι αὐτὸν ὑφ' ἑαυτοῦ
πάντων αἴσχιστόν τε ἅμα καὶ κάκιστον. ταῦτα γὰρ ὡς πολέμου
ἐν ἑκάστοις ἡμῶν ὄντος πρὸς ἡμᾶς αὐτοὺς σημαίνει.
Clin.It is just in this war, my friend, that the victory over self is of all victories the first and best while self-defeat is of all defeats at once the worst and the most shameful. For these phrases signify that a war against self exists within each of us.
ΑΘ.Πάλιν τοίνυν τὸν λόγον ἀναστρέψωμεν. ἐπειδὴ
γὰρ εἷς ἕκαστος ἡμῶν μὲν κρείττων αὑτοῦ, δὲ ἥττων
627a ἐστί, πότερα φῶμεν οἰκίαν τε καὶ κώμην καὶ πόλιν ἔχειν
ταὐτὸν τοῦτο ἐν αὑταῖς μὴ φῶμεν;
Ath.Now let us take the argument back in the reverse direction. Seeing that individually each of us is partly superior to himself and partly inferior, are we to affirm that the same condition of things exists in house and village and State, or are we to deny it?
ΚΛ.Τὸ κρείττω τε ἑαυτῆς εἶναι λέγεις τινά, τὴν δ' ἥττω;
Clin.Do you mean the condition of being partly self-superior and partly self-inferior?
ΑΘ.Ναί.
Ath.Yes.
ΚΛ.Καὶ τοῦτο ὀρθῶς ἤρου· πάνυ γὰρ ἔστι καὶ σφόδρα
τὸ τοιοῦτον, οὐχ ἥκιστα ἐν ταῖς πόλεσιν. ἐν ὁπόσαις μὲν
γὰρ οἱ ἀμείνονες νικῶσιν τὸ πλῆθος καὶ τοὺς χείρους, ὀρθῶς
ἂν αὕτη κρείττων τε ἑαυτῆς λέγοιθ' πόλις, ἐπαινοῖτό
τε ἂν δικαιότατα τῇ τοιαύτῃ νίκῃ· τοὐναντίον δέ, ὅπου
τἀναντία.
Clin.That, too, is a proper question; for such a condition does most certainly exist, and in States above all. Every State in which the better class is victorious over the populace and the lower classes would rightly be termed self-superior, and would be praised most justly for a victory of this kind; and conversely, when the reverse is the case.
627b ΑΘ.Τὸ μὲν τοίνυν εἴ ποτέ ἐστίν που τὸ χεῖρον κρεῖττον
τοῦ ἀμείνονος ἐάσωμενμακροτέρου γὰρ λόγουτὸ δὲ ὑπὸ
σοῦ λεγόμενον μανθάνω νῦν, ὥς ποτε πολῖται, συγγενεῖς καὶ
τῆς αὐτῆς πόλεως γεγονότες, ἄδικοι καὶ πολλοὶ συνελθόντες,
δικαίους ἐλάττους ὄντας βιάσονται δουλούμενοι, καὶ ὅταν
μὲν κρατήσωσιν, ἥττων πόλις αὑτῆς ὀρθῶς αὕτη λέγοιτ'
ἂν ἅμα καὶ κακή, ὅπου δ' ἂν ἡττῶνται, κρείττων τε καὶ
ἀγαθή.
Ath.Well then, leaving aside the question as to whether the worse element is ever superior to the better (a question which would demand a more lengthy discussion), what you assert, as I now perceive, is this,—that sometimes citizens of one stock and of one State who are unjust and numerous may combine together and try to enslave by force those who are just but fewer in number, and wherever they prevail such a State would rightly be termed self-inferior and bad, but self-superior and good wherever they are worsted.
627c ΚΛ.Καὶ μάλα ἄτοπον, ξένε, τὸ νῦν λεγόμενον· ὅμως
δὲ ὁμολογεῖν οὕτως ἀναγκαιότατον.
Clin.This statement is indeed most extraordinary, Stranger; none the less we cannot possibly reject it.
ΑΘ.Ἔχε δή. καὶ τόδε πάλιν ἐπισκεψώμεθα· πολλοὶ
ἀδελφοί που γένοιντ' ἂν ἑνὸς ἀνδρός τε καὶ μιᾶς ὑεῖς, καὶ
δὴ καὶ θαυμαστὸν οὐδὲν τοὺς πλείους μὲν ἀδίκους αὐτῶν
γίγνεσθαι, τοὺς δὲ ἐλάττους δικαίους.
Ath.Stay a moment: here too is a case we must further consider. Suppose there were a number of brothers, all sons of the same parents, it would not be at all surprising if most of them were unjust and but few just.
ΚΛ.Οὐ γὰρ οὖν.
Clin.It would not.
ΑΘ.Καὶ οὐκ ἂν εἴη γε πρέπον ἐμοί τε καὶ ὑμῖν τοῦτο
θηρεύειν, ὅτι νικώντων μὲν τῶν πονηρῶν τε οἰκία καὶ
συγγένεια αὕτη πᾶσα ἥττων αὑτῆς λέγοιτ' ἄν, κρείττων δὲ
627d ἡττωμένων· οὐ γὰρ εὐσχημοσύνης τε καὶ ἀσχημοσύνης
ῥημάτων ἕνεκα τὰ νῦν σκοπούμεθα πρὸς τὸν τῶν πολλῶν
λόγον, ἀλλ' ὀρθότητός τε καὶ ἁμαρτίας πέρι νόμων, ἥτις
ποτ' ἐστὶν φύσει.
Ath.And, moreover, it would ill beseem you and me to go a-chasing after this form of expression, that if the bad ones conquered the whole of this family and house should be called self-inferior, but self-superior if they were defeated; for our present reference to the usage of ordinary speech is not concerned with the propriety or impropriety of verbal phrases but with the essential rightness or wrongness of laws.
ΚΛ.Ἀληθέστατα, ξένε, λέγεις.
Clin.Very true, Stranger.
ΜΕ.Καλῶς μὲν οὖν, ὥς γε ἐμοὶ συνδοκεῖν, τό γε τοσοῦτον,
τὰ νῦν.
Meg.And finely spoken, too, up to this point, as I agree.
ΑΘ.Ἴδωμεν δὴ καὶ τόδε· τούτοις τοῖς ἄρτι λεγομένοις
ἀδελφοῖς γένοιτ' ἄν πού τις δικαστής;
Ath.Let us also look at this point: the brothers we have just described would have, I suppose, a judge?
ΚΛ.Πάνυ γε.
Clin.Certainly.
ΑΘ.Πότερος οὖν ἀμείνων, ὅστις τοὺς μὲν ἀπολέσειεν
627e αὐτῶν ὅσοι κακοί, τοὺς δὲ βελτίους ἄρχειν αὐτοὺς αὑτῶν
προστάξειεν, ὅδε ὃς ἂν τοὺς μὲν χρηστοὺς ἄρχειν, τοὺς
χείρους δ' ἐάσας ζῆν ἄρχεσθαι ἑκόντας ποιήσειεν; τρίτον
δέ που δικαστὴν πρὸς ἀρετὴν εἴπωμεν, εἴ τις εἴη τοιοῦτος
ὅστις παραλαβὼν συγγένειαν μίαν διαφερομένην, μήτε ἀπολέσειεν
628a μηδένα, διαλλάξας δὲ εἰς τὸν ἐπίλοιπον χρόνον,
νόμους αὐτοῖς θείς, πρὸς ἀλλήλους παραφυλάττειν δύναιτο
ὥστε εἶναι φίλους.
Ath.Which of the two would be the better—a judge who destroyed all the wicked among them and charged the good to govern themselves, or one who made the good members govern and, while allowing the bad to live, made them submit willingly to be governed?

And there is a third judge we must mention (third and best in point of merit),—if indeed such a judge can be found,— who in dealing with a single divided family will destroy none of them but reconcile them and succeed, by enacting laws for them, in securing amongst them thenceforward permanent friendliness.

ΚΛ.Μακρῷ ἀμείνων γίγνοιτ' ἂν τοιοῦτος δικαστής τε
καὶ νομοθέτης.
Clin.A judge and lawgiver of that kind would be by far the best.
ΑΘ.Καὶ μὴν τοὐναντίον γε πρὸς πόλεμον ἂν βλέπων
αὐτοῖς τοὺς νόμους διανομοθετοῖ.
Ath.But mark this: his aim, in the laws he enacted for them, would be the opposite of war.
ΚΛ.Τοῦτο μὲν ἀληθές.
Clin.That is true.
ΑΘ.Τί δ' τὴν πόλιν συναρμόττων; πρὸς πόλεμον
αὐτῆς ἂν τὸν ἔξωθεν βλέπων τὸν βίον κοσμοῖ μᾶλλον,
628b πρὸς πόλεμον τὸν ἐν αὐτῇ γιγνόμενον ἑκάστοτε, δὴ
καλεῖται στάσις; ὃν μάλιστα μὲν ἅπας ἂν βούλοιτο μήτε
γενέσθαι ποτὲ ἐν ἑαυτοῦ πόλει γενόμενόν τε ὡς τάχιστα
ἀπαλλάττεσθαι.
Ath.And what of him who brings the State into harmony? In ordering its life would he have regard to external warfare rather than to the internal war, whenever it occurs, which goes by the name of civil strife? For this is a war as to which it would be the desire of every man that, if possible, it should never occur in his own State, and that, if it did occur, it should come to as speedy an end as possible.
ΚΛ.Δῆλον ὅτι πρὸς τοῦτον.
Clin.Evidently he would have regard to civil war.
ΑΘ.Πότερα δὲ ἀπολομένων αὖ τῶν ἑτέρων εἰρήνην τῆς
στάσεως γενέσθαι, νικησάντων δὲ ποτέρων, δέξαιτ' ἄν τις,
μᾶλλον φιλίας τε καὶ εἰρήνης ὑπὸ διαλλαγῶν γενομένης,
οὕτω τοῖς ἔξωθεν πολεμίοις προσέχειν ἀνάγκην εἶναι τὸν
628c νοῦν;
Ath.And would anyone prefer that the citizens should be obliged to devote their attention to external enemies after internal concord had been secured by the destruction of one section and the victory of their opponents rather than after the establishment of friendship and peace by terms of conciliation?
ΚΛ.Οὕτω πᾶς ἂν ἐθέλοι πρότερον 'κείνως περὶ τὴν
αὑτοῦ γίγνεσθαι πόλιν.
Clin.Everyone would prefer the latter alternative for his own State rather than the former.
ΑΘ.Οὐκοῦν καὶ νομοθέτης ὡσαύτως;
Ath.And would not the lawgiver do the same?
ΚΛ.Τί μήν;
Clin.Of course.
ΑΘ.Ἆρα οὖν οὐ τοῦ ἀρίστου ἕνεκα πάντα ἂν τὰ νόμιμα
τιθείη πᾶς;
Ath.Would not every lawgiver in all his legislation aim at the highest good?
ΚΛ.Πῶς δ' οὔ;
Clin.Assuredly.
ΑΘ.Τό γε μὴν ἄριστον οὔτε πόλεμος οὔτε στάσις,
ἀπευκτὸν δὲ τὸ δεηθῆναι τούτων, εἰρήνη δὲ πρὸς ἀλλήλους
ἅμα καὶ φιλοφροσύνη, καὶ δὴ καὶ τὸ νικᾶν, ὡς ἔοικεν, αὐτὴν
628d αὑτὴν πόλιν οὐκ ἦν τῶν ἀρίστων ἀλλὰ τῶν ἀναγκαίων·
ὅμοιον ὡς εἰ κάμνον σῶμα ἰατρικῆς καθάρσεως τυχὸν ἡγοῖτό
τις ἄριστα πράττειν τότε, τῷ δὲ μηδὲ τὸ παράπαν δεηθέντι
σώματι μηδὲ προσέχοι τὸν νοῦν, ὡσαύτως δὲ καὶ πρὸς
πόλεως εὐδαιμονίαν καὶ ἰδιώτου διανοούμενος οὕτω τις
οὔτ' ἄν ποτε πολιτικὸς γένοιτο ὀρθῶς, πρὸς τὰ ἔξωθεν πολεμικὰ
ἀποβλέπων μόνον καὶ πρῶτον, οὔτ' ἂν νομοθέτης
ἀκριβής, εἰ μὴ χάριν εἰρήνης τὰ πολέμου νομοθετοῖ μᾶλλον
628e τῶν πολεμικῶν ἕνεκα τὰ τῆς εἰρήνης.
Ath.The highest good, however, is neither war nor civil strife—which things we should pray rather to be saved from—but peace one with another and friendly feeling. Moreover, it would seem that the victory we mentioned of a State over itself is not one of the best things but one of those which are necessary. For imagine a man supposing that a human body was best off when it was sick and aged with physic, while never giving a thought to the case of the body that needs no physic at all! Similarly, with regard to the well-being of a State or an individual, that man will never make genuine statesman who pays attention primarily solely to the needs of foreign warfare, nor will he make a finished lawgiver unless he designs his legislation for peace rather than his peace legislation for war.
ΚΛ.Φαίνεται μέν πως λόγος οὗτος, ξένε, ὀρθῶς
εἰρῆσθαι, θαυμάζω γε μὴν εἰ τά τε παρ' ἡμῖν νόμιμα καὶ
ἔτι τὰ περὶ Λακεδαίμονα μὴ πᾶσαν τὴν σπουδὴν τούτων
ἕνεκα πεποίηται.
Clin.This statement, Stranger, is apparently true; yet, unless I am much mistaken, our legal usages in Crete, and in Lacedaemon too, are wholly acted towards war.
629a ΑΘ.Τάχ' ἂν ἴσως· δεῖ δὲ οὐδὲν σκληρῶς ἡμᾶς αὐτοῖς
διαμάχεσθαι τὰ νῦν ἀλλ' ἠρέμα ἀνερωτᾶν, ὡς μάλιστα
περὶ ταῦτα ἡμῶν τε καὶ ἐκείνων σπουδαζόντων. καί μοι
τῷ λόγῳ συνακολουθήσατε. προστησώμεθα γοῦν Τύρταιον,
τὸν φύσει μὲν Ἀθηναῖον, τῶνδε δὲ πολίτην γενόμενον, ὃς
δὴ μάλιστα ἀνθρώπων περὶ ταῦτα ἐσπούδακεν εἰπὼν ὅτι
οὔτ' ἂν μνησαίμην οὔτ' ἐν λόγῳ ἄνδρα τιθείμην
629b οὔτ' εἴ τις πλουσιώτατος ἀνθρώπων εἴη, φησίν, οὔτ' εἰ
πολλὰ ἀγαθὰ κεκτημένος, εἰπὼν σχεδὸν ἅπαντα, ὃς μὴ περὶ
τὸν πόλεμον ἄριστος γίγνοιτ' ἀεί. ταῦτα γὰρ ἀκήκοάς που
καὶ σὺ τὰ ποιήματα· ὅδε μὲν γὰρ οἶμαι διακορὴς αὐτῶν ἐστι.
Ath.Very possibly; but we must not now attack them violently, but mildly interrogate them, since both we and your legislators are earnestly interested in these matters. Pray follow the argument closely. Let us take the opinion of Tyrtaeus (an Athenian by birth and afterwards a citizen of Lacedaemon), above all men, was keenly interested in our subject. This is what he says: Though a man were the richest of men,Tyrtaeus 12 Bergk though a man possessed goods in plenty (and he specifies nearly every good there is), if he failed to prove himself at all times most valiant in war, no mention should I make of nor take account of him at all. No doubt you also have heard these poems; while our friend Megillus is, I imagine, surfeited with them.
ΜΕ.Πάνυ μὲν οὖν.
Meg.I certainly am.
ΚΛ.Καὶ μὴν καὶ παρ' ἡμᾶς ἐλήλυθε κομισθέντα ἐκ
Λακεδαίμονος.
Clin.And I can assure you they have reached Crete also, shipped over from Lacedaemon.
ΑΘ.Ἴθι νυν ἀνερώμεθα κοινῇ τουτονὶ τὸν ποιητὴν οὑτωσί
πως· " Τύρταιε, ποιητὰ θειότατεδοκεῖς γὰρ δὴ
629c σοφὸς ἡμῖν εἶναι καὶ ἀγαθός, ὅτι τοὺς μὲν ἐν τῷ πολέμῳ
διαφέροντας διαφερόντως ἐγκεκωμίακαςἤδη οὖν τυγχάνομεν
ἐγώ τε καὶ ὅδε καὶ Κλεινίας Κνώσιος οὑτοσὶ συμφερόμενοί
σοι περὶ τούτου σφόδρα, ὡς δοκοῦμεν· εἰ δὲ περὶ
τῶν αὐτῶν λέγομεν ἀνδρῶν μή, βουλόμεθα σαφῶς εἰδέναι.
λέγε οὖν ἡμῖν· ἆρα εἴδη δύο πολέμου καθάπερ ἡμεῖς ἡγῇ
καὶ σὺ σαφῶς; πῶς;" πρὸς ταῦτ' οἶμαι κἂν πολὺ φαυλότερος
629d εἴποι Τυρταίου τις τἀληθές, ὅτι δύο, τὸ μὲν καλοῦμεν
ἅπαντες στάσιν, ὃς δὴ πάντων πολέμων χαλεπώτατος,
ὡς ἔφαμεν ἡμεῖς νυνδή· τὸ δὲ ἄλλο πολέμου θήσομεν οἶμαι
γένος ἅπαντες πρὸς τοὺς ἐκτός τε καὶ ἀλλοφύλους χρώμεθα
διαφερόμενοι, πολὺ πρᾳότερον ἐκείνου.
Ath.Come now, let us jointly interrogate this poet somehow on this wise: O Tyrtaeus, most inspired of poets (for assuredly you seem to us both wise and good in that you have eulogized excellently those who excel in war), concerning this matter we three Megillus, Clinias of Cnosus and myself are already in entire accord with you, as we suppose; but we wish to be assured that both we and you are alluding to the same persons. Tell us then: do you clearly recognize, as we do, two distinct kinds of war? In reply to this I suppose that even a much less able man than Tyrtaeus would state the truth, that there are two kinds, the one being that which we all call civil, which is of all wars the most bitter, as we said just now, while the other kind, as I suppose we shall all agree, is that which we engage in when we quarrel with foreigners and aliens—a kind much milder than the former.
ΚΛ.Πῶς γὰρ οὔ;
Clin.Certainly.
ΑΘ.Φέρε δή, ποτέρους, καὶ πρὸς πότερον ἐπαινῶν τὸν
πόλεμον, οὕτως ὑπερεπῄνεσας, τοὺς δὲ ἔψεξας τῶν ἀνδρῶν;
ἔοικας μὲν γὰρ πρὸς τοὺς ἐκτός· εἴρηκας γοῦν ὧδε ἐν τοῖς
629e ποιήμασιν, ὡς οὐδαμῶς τοὺς τοιούτους ἀνεχόμενος, οἳ μὴ
τολμήσωσιν μὲν ὁρᾶν φόνον αἱματόεντα,
καὶ δηίων ὀρέγοιντ' ἐγγύθεν ἱστάμενοι.
οὐκοῦν τὰ μετὰ ταῦτα εἴποιμεν ἂν ἡμεῖς ὅτι "Σὺ μὲν ἐπαινεῖς,
ὡς ἔοικας, Τύρταιε, μάλιστα τοὺς πρὸς τὸν ὀθνεῖόν
τε καὶ ἔξωθεν πόλεμον γιγνομένους ἐπιφανεῖς." φαίη ταῦτ'
ἄν που καὶ ὁμολογοῖ;
Ath.Come, then, which kind of warriors, fighting in which kind of war, did you praise so highly, while blaming others? Warriors, apparently, who fight in war abroad. At any rate, in your poems you have said that you cannot abide men who dare not face the gory fray Tyrtaeus and smite the foe in close combat. Tyrtaeus Then we should proceed to say, It appears, O Tyrtaeus, that you are chiefly praising those who achieve distinction in foreign and external warfare. To this, I presume, he would agree, and say Yes?
ΚΛ.Τί μήν;
Clin.Of course.
630a ΑΘ.Ἡμεῖς δέ γε ἀγαθῶν ὄντων τούτων ἔτι φαμὲν ἀμείνους
εἶναι καὶ πολὺ τοὺς ἐν τῷ μεγίστῳ πολέμῳ γιγνομένους
ἀρίστους διαφανῶς· ποιητὴν δὲ καὶ ἡμεῖς μάρτυρ' ἔχομεν,
Θέογνιν, πολίτην τῶν ἐν Σικελίᾳ Μεγαρέων, ὅς φησιν
πιστὸς ἀνὴρ χρυσοῦ τε καὶ ἀργύρου ἀντερύσασθαι
ἄξιος ἐν χαλεπῇ, Κύρνε, διχοστασίῃ.
τοῦτον δή φαμεν ἐν πολέμῳ χαλεπωτέρῳ ἀμείνονα ἐκείνου
πάμπολυ γίγνεσθαι, σχεδὸν ὅσον ἀμείνων δικαιοσύνη καὶ
630b σωφροσύνη καὶ φρόνησις εἰς ταὐτὸν ἐλθοῦσαι μετ' ἀνδρείας,
αὐτῆς μόνης ἀνδρείας. πιστὸς μὲν γὰρ καὶ ὑγιὴς ἐν στάσεσιν
οὐκ ἄν ποτε γένοιτο ἄνευ συμπάσης ἀρετῆς· διαβάντες
δ' εὖ καὶ μαχόμενοι ἐθέλοντες ἀποθνῄσκειν ἐν πολέμῳ
φράζει Τύρταιος τῶν μισθοφόρων εἰσὶν πάμπολλοι, ὧν
οἱ πλεῖστοι γίγνονται θρασεῖς καὶ ἄδικοι καὶ ὑβρισταὶ καὶ
ἀφρονέστατοι σχεδὸν ἁπάντων, ἐκτὸς δή τινων εὖ μάλα
ὀλίγων. ποῖ δὴ τελευτᾷ νῦν ἡμῖν οὗτος λόγος, καὶ τί
630c φανερόν ποτε ποιῆσαι βουληθεὶς λέγει ταῦτα; δῆλον ὅτι
τόδε, ὡς παντὸς μᾶλλον καὶ τῇδε παρὰ Διὸς νομοθέτης,
πᾶς τε οὗ καὶ σμικρὸν ὄφελος, οὐκ ἄλλο πρὸς τὴν μεγίστην
ἀρετὴν μάλιστα βλέπων ἀεὶ θήσει τοὺς νόμους· ἔστι
δέ, ὥς φησιν Θέογνις, αὕτη πιστότης ἐν τοῖς δεινοῖς, ἥν
τις δικαιοσύνην ἂν τελέαν ὀνομάσειεν. ἣν δ' αὖ Τύρταιος
ἐπῄνεσεν μάλιστα, καλὴ μὲν καὶ κατὰ καιρὸν κεκοσμημένη
τῷ ποιητῇ, τετάρτη μέντοι ὅμως ἀριθμῷ τε καὶ δυνάμει τοῦ
630d τιμία εἶναι λέγοιτ' ἂν ὀρθότατα.
Ath.Yet, brave though these men are, we still maintain that they are far surpassed in bravery by those who are conspicuously brave in the greatest of wars; and we also have a poet for witness,—Theognis (a citizen of Sicilian Megara), who says: In the day of grievous feud, O Cyrnus, the loyal warrior is worth his weight in silver and gold.Theognis 5.77-8 Bergk Such a man, in a war much more grievous, is, we say, ever so much better than the other—nearly as much better, in fact, as the union of justice, prudence and wisdom with courage is better than courage by itself alone. For a man would never prove himself a loyal and sound in civil war if devoid of goodness in its entirety; whereas in the war of which Tyrtaeus speaks there are vast numbers of mercenaries ready to die fighting with well-planted feet apart, of whom the majority, with but few exceptions, prove themselves reckless, unjust, violent, and pre-eminently foolish. What, then, is the conclusion to which our present discourse is tending, and what point is it trying to make clear by these statements? Plainly it is this: both the Heaven-taught legislator of Crete and every legislator who is worth his salt will most assuredly legislate always with a single eye to the highest goodness and to that alone; and this (to quote Theognis) consists in loyalty in danger, and one might term it complete righteousness. But that goodness which Tyrtaeus specially praised, fair though it be and fitly glorified by the poet, deserves nevertheless to be placed no higher than fourth in order and estimation.
ΚΛ. ξένε, τὸν νομοθέτην ἡμῶν ἀποβάλλομεν εἰς
τοὺς πόρρω νομοθέτας.
Clin.We are degrading our own lawgiver, Stranger, to a very low level!
ΑΘ.Οὐχ ἡμεῖς γε, ἄριστε, ἀλλ' ἡμᾶς αὐτούς, ὅταν
οἰώμεθα πάντα τά τ' ἐν Λακεδαίμονι καὶ τὰ τῇδε πρὸς
τὸν πόλεμον μάλιστα βλέποντας Λυκοῦργόν τε καὶ Μίνω
τίθεσθαι τὰ νόμιμα.
Ath.Nay, my good Sir, it is ourselves we are degrading, in so far as we imagine that it was with a special view to war that Lycurgus and Minos laid down all the legal usages here and in Lacedaemon.
ΚΛ.Τὸ δὲ πῶς χρῆν ἡμᾶς λέγειν;
Clin.How, then, ought we to have stated the matter?
ΑΘ.Ὥσπερ τό τε ἀληθὲς οἶμαι καὶ τὸ δίκαιον ὑπέρ γε
630e θείας διαλεγομένους λέγειν, οὐχ ὡς πρὸς ἀρετῆς τι μόριον,
καὶ ταῦτα τὸ φαυλότατον, ἐτίθει βλέπων, ἀλλὰ πρὸς πᾶσαν
ἀρετήν, καὶ κατ' εἴδη ζητεῖν αὐτῶν τοὺς νόμους οὐδ' ἅπερ
οἱ τῶν νῦν εἴδη προτιθέμενοι ζητοῦσιν. οὗ γὰρ ἂν ἕκαστος
ἐν χρείᾳ γίγνηται, τοῦτο ζητεῖ νῦν παραθέμενος, μὲν τὰ
περὶ τῶν κλήρων καὶ ἐπικλήρων, δὲ τῆς αἰκίας πέρι, ἄλλοι
δὲ ἄλλ' ἄττα μυρία τοιαῦτα· ἡμεῖς δέ φαμεν εἶναι τὸ περὶ
631a νόμους ζήτημα τῶν εὖ ζητούντων ὥσπερ νῦν ἡμεῖς ἠρξάμεθα.
καὶ σοῦ τὴν μὲν ἐπιχείρησιν τῆς ἐξηγήσεως περὶ
τοὺς νόμους παντάπασιν ἄγαμαι· τὸ γὰρ ἀπ' ἀρετῆς ἄρχεσθαι,
λέγοντα ὡς ἐτίθει ταύτης ἕνεκα τοὺς νόμους, ὀρθόν·
ὅτι δὲ πάντα εἰς μόριον ἀρετῆς, καὶ ταῦτα τὸ σμικρότατον,
ἐπαναφέροντα ἔφησθ' αὐτὸν νομοθετεῖν, οὔτε ὀρθῶς ἔτι μοι
κατεφάνης λέγων τόν τε ὕστερον νῦν λόγον τοῦτον πάντα
εἴρηκα διὰ ταῦτα. πῇ δὴ οὖν σε ἔτ' ἂν ἐβουλόμην διελόμενον
631b λέγειν αὐτός τε ἀκούειν; βούλει σοι φράζω;
Ath.In the way that is, as I think, true and proper when talking of a divine hero. That is to say, we should state that he enacted laws with an eye not to some one fraction, and that the most paltry, of goodness, but to goodness as a whole, and that he devised the laws themselves according to classes, though not the classes which the present devisers propound.

For everyone now brings forward and devises just the class which he needs: one man deals with inheritances and heiresses, another with cases of battery, and so on in endless variety. But what we assert is that the devising of laws, when rightly conducted, follows the procedure which we have now commenced. Indeed, I greatly admire the way you opened your exposition of the laws; for to make a start with goodness and say that that was the aim of the lawgiver is the right way. But in your further statement that he legislated wholly with reference to a fraction of goodness, and that the smallest fraction, you seemed to me to be in error, and all this latter part of my discourse was because of that. What then is the manner of exposition I should have liked to have heard from you? Shall I tell you?

ΚΛ.Πάνυ μὲν οὖν.
Clin.Yes, by all means.
ΑΘ." ξένε," ἐχρῆν εἰπεῖν, "οἱ Κρητῶν νόμοι οὐκ
εἰσὶν μάτην διαφερόντως ἐν πᾶσιν εὐδόκιμοι τοῖς Ἕλλησιν·
ἔχουσιν γὰρ ὀρθῶς, τοὺς αὐτοῖς χρωμένους εὐδαίμονας ἀποτελοῦντες.
πάντα γὰρ τἀγαθὰ πορίζουσιν. διπλᾶ δὲ ἀγαθά
ἐστιν, τὰ μὲν ἀνθρώπινα, τὰ δὲ θεῖα· ἤρτηται δ' ἐκ τῶν
θείων θάτερα, καὶ ἐὰν μὲν δέχηταί τις τὰ μείζονα πόλις,
631c κτᾶται καὶ τὰ ἐλάττονα, εἰ δὲ μή, στέρεται ἀμφοῖν. ἔστι
δὲ τὰ μὲν ἐλάττονα ὧν ἡγεῖται μὲν ὑγίεια, κάλλος δὲ δεύτερον,
τὸ δὲ τρίτον ἰσχὺς εἴς τε δρόμον καὶ εἰς τὰς ἄλλας
πάσας κινήσεις τῷ σώματι, τέταρτον δὲ δὴ πλοῦτος οὐ τυφλὸς
ἀλλ' ὀξὺ βλέπων, ἄνπερ ἅμ' ἕπηται φρονήσει· δὴ πρῶτον
αὖ τῶν θείων ἡγεμονοῦν ἐστιν ἀγαθῶν, φρόνησις, δεύτερον
δὲ μετὰ νοῦ σώφρων ψυχῆς ἕξις, ἐκ δὲ τούτων μετ'
ἀνδρείας κραθέντων τρίτον ἂν εἴη δικαιοσύνη, τέταρτον δὲ
631d ἀνδρεία. ταῦτα δὲ πάντα ἐκείνων ἔμπροσθεν τέτακται φύσει,
καὶ δὴ καὶ τῷ νομοθέτῃ τακτέον οὕτως. μετὰ δὲ ταῦτα
τὰς ἄλλας προστάξεις τοῖς πολίταις εἰς ταῦτα βλεπούσας
αὐτοῖς εἶναι διακελευστέον, τούτων δὲ τὰ μὲν ἀνθρώπινα
εἰς τὰ θεῖα, τὰ δὲ θεῖα εἰς τὸν ἡγεμόνα νοῦν σύμπαντα
βλέπειν· περί τε γάμους ἀλλήλοις ἐπικοινουμένους, μετά τε
ταῦτα ἐν ταῖς τῶν παίδων γεννήσεσιν καὶ τροφαῖς ὅσοι
631e τε ἄρρενες καὶ ὅσαι θήλειαι, νέων τε ὄντων καὶ ἐπὶ τὸ πρεσβύτερον
ἰόντων μέχρι γήρως, τιμῶντα ὀρθῶς ἐπιμελεῖσθαι
δεῖ καὶ ἀτιμάζοντα, ἐν πάσαις ταῖς τούτων ὁμιλίαις τάς τε
λύπας αὐτῶν καὶ τὰς ἡδονὰς καὶ τὰς ἐπιθυμίας συμπάντων
632a τε ἐρώτων τὰς σπουδὰς ἐπεσκεμμένον καὶ παραπεφυλαχότα,
ψέγειν τε ὀρθῶς καὶ ἐπαινεῖν δι' αὐτῶν τῶν νόμων· ἐν ὀργαῖς
τε αὖ καὶ ἐν φόβοις, ὅσαι τε διὰ δυστυχίαν ταραχαὶ ταῖς
ψυχαῖς γίγνονται καὶ ὅσαι ἐν εὐτυχίαις τῶν τοιούτων ἀποφυγαί,
ὅσα τε κατὰ νόσους κατὰ πολέμους πενίας τὰ
τούτοις ἐναντία γιγνόμενα προσπίπτει τοῖς ἀνθρώποις παθήματα,
ἐν πᾶσιν τοῖς τοιούτοις τῆς ἑκάστων διαθέσεως διδακτέον
632b καὶ ὁριστέον τό τε καλὸν καὶ μή. μετὰ δὲ ταῦτα
ἀνάγκη τὸν νομοθέτην τὰς κτήσεις τῶν πολιτῶν καὶ τὰ
ἀναλώματα φυλάττειν ὅντιν' ἂν γίγνηται τρόπον, καὶ τὰς
πρὸς ἀλλήλους πᾶσιν τούτοις κοινωνίας καὶ διαλύσεις ἑκοῦσίν
τε καὶ ἄκουσιν καθ' ὁποῖον ἂν ἕκαστον πράττωσιν τῶν
τοιούτων πρὸς ἀλλήλους ἐπισκοπεῖν, τό τε δίκαιον καὶ μὴ
ἐν οἷς ἔστιν τε καὶ ἐν οἷς ἐλλείπει, καὶ τοῖς μὲν εὐπειθέσιν
τῶν νόμων τιμὰς ἀπονέμειν, τοῖς δὲ δυσπειθέσι δίκας τακτὰς
632c ἐπιτιθέναι, μέχριπερ ἂν πρὸς τέλος ἁπάσης πολιτείας ἐπεξελθών,
ἴδῃ τῶν τελευτησάντων τίνα δεῖ τρόπον ἑκάστοις
γίγνεσθαι τὰς ταφὰς καὶ τιμὰς ἅστινας αὐτοῖς ἀπονέμειν
δεῖ· κατιδὼν δὲ θεὶς τοὺς νόμους ἅπασιν τούτοις φύλακας
ἐπιστήσει, τοὺς μὲν διὰ φρονήσεως, τοὺς δὲ δι' ἀληθοῦς
δόξης ἰόντας, ὅπως πάντα ταῦτα συνδήσας νοῦς ἑπόμενα
σωφροσύνῃ καὶ δικαιοσύνῃ ἀποφήνῃ, ἀλλὰ μὴ πλούτῳ μηδὲ
632d φιλοτιμίᾳ." οὕτως, ξένοι, ἔγωγε ἤθελον ἂν ὑμᾶς καὶ ἔτι
νῦν βούλομαι διεξελθεῖν πῶς ἐν τοῖς τοῦ Διὸς λεγομένοις
νόμοις τοῖς τε τοῦ Πυθίου Ἀπόλλωνος, οὓς Μίνως τε καὶ
Λυκοῦργος ἐθέτην, ἔνεστίν τε πάντα ταῦτα, καὶ ὅπῃ τάξιν
τινὰ εἰληφότα διάδηλά ἐστιν τῷ περὶ νόμων ἐμπείρῳ τέχνῃ
εἴτε καί τισιν ἔθεσιν, τοῖς δὲ ἄλλοις ἡμῖν οὐδαμῶς ἐστι
καταφανῆ.
Ath.O Stranger (thus you ought to have said), it is not for nothing that the laws of the Cretans are held in superlatively high repute among all the Hellenes. For they are true laws inasmuch as they effect the well-being of those who use them by supplying all that are good. Now goods are of two kinds, human and divine; and the human goods are dependent on the divine, and he who receives the greater acquires also the less, or else he is bereft of both. The lesser goods are those of which health ranks first, beauty second; the third is strength, in running and all other bodily exercises; and the fourth is wealth—no blind god Plutus, but keen of sight, provided that he has wisdom for companion. And wisdom, in turn, has first place among the goods that are divine, and rational temperance of soul comes second; from these two, when united with courage, there issues justice, as the third; and the fourth is courage. Now all these are by nature ranked before the human goods, and verily the law-giver also must so rank them. Next, it must be proclaimed to the citizens that all the other instructions they receive have these in view; and that, of these goods themselves, the human look up to the divine, and the divine to reason as their chief. And in regard to their marriage connections, and to their subsequent breeding and rearing of children, male and female, both during youth and in later life up to old age, the lawgiver must supervise the citizens, duly apportioning honor and dishonor;

and in regard to all their forms of intercourse he must observe and watch their pains and pleasures and desires and all intense passions, and distribute praise and blame correctly by the means of the laws themselves. Moreover, in the matter of anger and of fear, and of all the disturbances which befall souls owing to misfortune, and of all the avoidances thereof which occur in good-fortune, and of all the experiences which confront men through disease or war or penury or their opposites,— in regard to all these definite instruction must be given as to what is the right and what the wrong disposition in each case. It is necessary, in the next place, for the law-giver to keep a watch on the methods employed by the citizens in gaining and spending money, and to supervise the associations they form with one another, and the dissolutions thereof, whether they be voluntary or under compulsion; he must observe the manner in which they conduct each of these mutual transactions, and note where justice obtains and where it is lacking. To those that are obedient he must assign honors by law, but on the disobedient he must impose duly appointed penalties. Then finally, when he arrives at the completion of the whole constitution, he has to consider in what manner in each case the burial of the dead should be carried out, and what honors should be assigned to them. This being settled, the framer of the laws will hand over all his statutes to the charge of Wardens—guided some by wisdom, others by true opinion—to the end that Reason, having bound all into one single system, may declare them to be ancillary neither to wealth nor ambition, but to temperance and justice. In this manner, Strangers, I could have wished (and I wish it still) that you had fully explained how all these regulations are inherent in the reputed laws of Zeus and in those of the Pythian Apollo which were ordained by Minos and Lycurgus, and how their systematic arrangement is quite evident to him who, whether by art or practice, is an expert in law, although it is by no means obvious to the rest of us.

ΚΛ.Πῶς οὖν, ξένε, λέγειν χρὴ τὰ μετὰ ταῦτα;
Clin.What then, Stranger, should be the next step in our argument?
ΑΘ.Ἐξ ἀρχῆς πάλιν ἔμοιγε δοκεῖ χρῆναι διεξελθεῖν,
632e καθάπερ ἠρξάμεθα, τὰ τῆς ἀνδρείας πρῶτον ἐπιτηδεύματα,
ἔπειτα ἕτερον καὶ αὖθις ἕτερον εἶδος τῆς ἀρετῆς διέξιμεν,
ἐὰν βούλησθε· ὅπως δ' ἂν τὸ πρῶτον διεξέλθωμεν, πειρασώμεθα
αὐτὸ παράδειγμα θέμενοι καὶ τἆλλ' οὕτω διαμυθολογοῦντες
παραμύθια ποιήσασθαι τῆς ὁδοῦ, ὕστερον δὲ ἀρετῆς
πάσης γε νυνδὴ διήλθομεν ἐκεῖσε βλέποντα ἀποφανοῦμεν,
ἂν θεὸς ἐθέλῃ.
Ath.We ought, as I think, to do as we did at first— start from the beginning to explain first the institutions which have to do with courage; and after that we shall, if you wish, deal with a second and a third form of goodness. And as soon as we have completed our treatment of the first theme, we shall take that as our model and by a discussion of the rest on similar lines beguile the way; and at the end of our treatment of goodness in all its forms we shall make it clear, if God will, that the rules we discussed just now had goodness for their aim.
633a ΜΕ.Καλῶς λέγεις, καὶ πειρῶ πρῶτον κρίνειν τὸν τοῦ
Διὸς ἐπαινέτην τόνδε ἡμῖν.
Meg.A good suggestion! And begin with our friend here, the panegyrist of Zeus—try first to put him to the test.
ΑΘ.Πειράσομαι, καὶ σέ τε καὶ ἐμαυτόν· κοινὸς γὰρ
λόγος. λέγετε οὖν· τὰ συσσίτιά φαμεν καὶ τὰ γυμνάσια
πρὸς τὸν πόλεμον ἐξηυρῆσθαι τῷ νομοθέτῃ;
Ath.Try I will, and to test you too and myself; for the argument concerns us all alike. Tell me then: do we assert that the common meals and the gymnasia were devised by the lawgiver with a view to war?
ΜΕ.Ναί.
Meg.Yes.
ΑΘ.Καὶ τρίτον τέταρτον; ἴσως γὰρ ἂν οὕτω χρείη
διαριθμήσασθαι καὶ περὶ τῶν τῆς ἄλλης ἀρετῆς εἴτε μερῶν
εἴτε ἅττ' αὐτὰ καλεῖν χρεών ἐστι, δηλοῦντα μόνον λέγει.
Ath.And is there a third institution of the kind, and a fourth? For probably one ought to employ this method of enumeration also in dealing with the subdivisions (or whatever we ought to call them) of the other forms of goodness, if only one makes oneÕs meaning clear.
633b ΜΕ.Τρίτον τοίνυν, ἔγωγ' εἴποιμ' ἂν καὶ Λακεδαιμονίων
ὁστισοῦν, τὴν θήραν ηὗρε.
Meg.The third thing he devised was hunting: so I and every Lacedaemonian would say.
ΑΘ.Τέταρτον δέ, πέμπτον εἰ δυναίμεθα, λέγειν
πειρώμεθα.
Ath.Let us attempt also to state what comes fourth,—and fifth too, if possible.
ΜΕ.Ἔτι τοίνυν καὶ τὸ τέταρτον ἔγωγε πειρῴμην ἂν
λέγειν, τὸ περὶ τὰς καρτερήσεις τῶν ἀλγηδόνων πολὺ παρ'
ἡμῖν γιγνόμενον, ἔν τε ταῖς πρὸς ἀλλήλους ταῖς χερσὶ μάχαις
καὶ ἐν ἁρπαγαῖς τισιν διὰ πολλῶν πληγῶν ἑκάστοτε γιγνομένων·
ἔτι δὲ καὶ κρυπτεία τις ὀνομάζεται θαυμαστῶς πολύπονος
633c πρὸς τὰς καρτερήσεις, χειμώνων τε ἀνυποδησίαι καὶ
ἀστρωσίαι καὶ ἄνευ θεραπόντων αὐτοῖς ἑαυτῶν διακονήσεις
νύκτωρ τε πλανωμένων διὰ πάσης τῆς χώρας καὶ μεθ'
ἡμέραν. ἔτι δὲ κἀν ταῖς γυμνοπαιδίαις δειναὶ καρτερήσεις
παρ' ἡμῖν γίγνονται τῇ τοῦ πνίγους ῥώμῃ διαμαχομένων, καὶ
πάμπολλα ἕτερα, σχεδὸν ὅσα οὐκ ἂν παύσαιτό τις ἑκάστοτε
διεξιών.
Meg.The fourth also I may attempt to state: it is the training, widely prevalent amongst us, in hardy endurance of pain, by means both of manual contests and of robberies carried out every time at the risk of a sound drubbing; moreover, the Crypteia, as it is called, affords a wonderfully severe training in hardihood, as the men go bare-foot in winter and sleep without coverlets and have no attendants, but wait on themselves and rove through the whole countryside both by night and by day. Moreover in our games, we have severe tests of endurance, when men unclad do battle with the violence of the heat,—and there are other instances so numerous that the recital of them would be well-nigh endless.
ΑΘ.Εὖ γε, Λακεδαιμόνιε ξένε, λέγεις. τὴν ἀνδρείαν
δέ, φέρε, τί θῶμεν; πότερον ἁπλῶς οὕτως εἶναι πρὸς φόβους
633d καὶ λύπας διαμάχην μόνον, καὶ πρὸς πόθους τε καὶ ἡδονὰς
καί τινας δεινὰς θωπείας κολακικάς, αἳ καὶ τῶν σεμνῶν
οἰομένων εἶναι τοὺς θυμοὺς ποιοῦσιν κηρίνους.
Ath.Splendid, O Stranger of Lacedaemon! But come now, as to courage, how shall we define it? Shall we define it quite simply as battling against fears and pains only, or as against desires also and pleasures, with their dangerous enticements and flatteries, which melt men’s hearts like wax—even men most reverenced in their own conceit.
ΜΕ.Οἶμαι μὲν οὕτω· πρὸς ταῦτα σύμπαντα.
Meg.The latter definition is, I think, the right one: courage is battling against them all.
ΑΘ.Εἰ γοῦν μεμνήμεθα τοὺς ἔμπροσθεν λόγους, ἥττω
τινὰ ὅδε καὶ πόλιν ἔλεγεν αὐτὴν αὑτῆς καὶ ἄνδρα. γάρ,
ξένε Κνώσιε;
Ath.Earlier in our discourse (if I am not mistaken) Clinias here used the expression self-inferior of a State or an individual: did you not do so, O Stranger of Cnosus?
ΚΛ.Καὶ πάνυ γε.
Clin.Most certainly.
633e ΑΘ.Νῦν οὖν πότερα λέγομεν τὸν τῶν λυπῶν ἥττω κακὸν
καὶ τὸν τῶν ἡδονῶν;
Ath.At present do we apply the term bad to the man who is inferior to pains, or to him also who is inferior to pleasures?
ΚΛ.Μᾶλλον, ἔμοιγε δοκεῖ, τὸν τῶν ἡδονῶν· καὶ πάντες
που μᾶλλον λέγομεν τὸν ὑπὸ τῶν ἡδονῶν κρατούμενον τοῦτον
τὸν ἐπονειδίστως ἥττονα ἑαυτοῦ πρότερον τὸν ὑπὸ τῶν
λυπῶν.
Clin.To the man who is inferior to pleasures more than to the other, in my opinion. All of us, indeed, when we speak of a man who is shamefully self-inferior, mean one who is mastered by pleasures rather than one who is mastered by pains.
634a ΑΘ. Διὸς οὖν δὴ καὶ Πυθικὸς νομοθέτης οὐ δήπου
χωλὴν τὴν ἀνδρείαν νενομοθετήκατον, πρὸς τἀριστερὰ μόνον
δυναμένην ἀντιβαίνειν, πρὸς τὰ δεξιὰ καὶ κομψὰ καὶ θωπευτικὰ
ἀδυνατοῦσαν; πρὸς ἀμφότερα;
Ath.Then surely the lawgiver of Zeus and he of Apollo did not enact by law a lame kind of courage, able only to defend itself on the left and unable to resist attractions and allurements on the right, but rather one able to resist on both sides?
ΚΛ.Πρὸς ἀμφότερα ἔγωγε ἀξιῶ.
Clin.On both sides, as I would maintain.
ΑΘ.Λέγωμεν τοίνυν πάλιν ἐπιτηδεύματα ποῖα ἔσθ' ὑμῖν
ἀμφοτέραις ταῖς πόλεσιν, γεύοντα τῶν ἡδονῶν καὶ οὐ
φεύγοντα αὐτάς, καθάπερ τὰς λύπας οὐκ ἔφευγεν, ἀλλ'
ἄγοντα εἰς μέσας, ἠνάγκαζε καὶ ἔπειθεν τιμαῖς ὥστε κρατεῖν
634b αὐτῶν; ποῦ δὴ τοῦτ' ἔστιν ταὐτὸν περὶ τὰς ἡδονὰς συντεταγμένον
ἐν τοῖς νόμοις; λεγέσθω τί τοῦτ' ἐστὶν καὶ
ἀπεργάζεται ὑμῖν ὁμοίως πρός τε ἀλγηδόνας καὶ πρὸς
ἡδονὰς τοὺς αὐτοὺς ἀνδρείους, νικῶντάς τε δεῖ νικᾶν
καὶ οὐδαμῶς ἥττους πολεμίων τῶν ἐγγύτατα ἑαυτῶν καὶ
χαλεπωτάτων.
Ath.Let us, then, mention once more the State institutions in both your countries which give men a taste of pleasures instead of shunning them,—just as they did not shun pains but plunged their citizens into the midst of them and so compelled them, or induced them by rewards, to master them. Where, pray, in your laws is the same policy adopted in regard to pleasures? Let us declare what regulation of yours there is which causes the same men to be courageous toward pains and pleasures alike, conquering where they ought to conquer and in no wise worsted by their nearest and most dangerous enemies.
ΜΕ.Οὕτω μὲν τοίνυν, ξένε, καθάπερ πρὸς τὰς ἀλγηδόνας
εἶχον νόμους ἀντιτεταγμένους πολλοὺς εἰπεῖν, οὐκ ἂν
634c ἴσως εὐποροίην κατὰ μεγάλα μέρη καὶ διαφανῆ λέγων περὶ
τῶν ἡδονῶν· κατὰ δὲ σμικρὰ ἴσως εὐποροίην ἄν.
Meg.Although, Stranger, I was able to mention a number of laws that dealt with mastery over pains, in the case of pleasures I may not find it equally easy to produce important and conspicuous examples; but I might perhaps furnish some minor instances.
ΚΛ.Οὐ μὴν οὐδ' ἂν αὐτὸς ἔγωγε ἐν τοῖς κατὰ Κρήτην
νόμοις ἔχοιμι ἐμφανὲς ὁμοίως ποιεῖν τὸ τοιοῦτον.
Clin.Neither could I in like manner give myself clear examples from the Cretan laws.
ΑΘ. ἄριστοι ξένων, καὶ οὐδέν γε θαυμαστόν. ἀλλ'
ἂν ἄρα τις ἡμῶν περὶ τοὺς ἑκάστων οἴκοι νόμους ψέξῃ τι,
βουλόμενος ἰδεῖν τό τε ἀληθὲς ἅμα καὶ τὸ βέλτιστον, μὴ
χαλεπῶς ἀλλὰ πρᾴως ἀποδεχώμεθα ἀλλήλων.
Ath.And no wonder, my most excellent friends. If then, in his desire to discover what is true and superlatively good, any one of us should find fault with any domestic law of his neighbors, let us take one another’s remarks in good part and without resentment.
ΚΛ.Ὀρθῶς, ξένε Ἀθηναῖε, εἴρηκας, καὶ πειστέον.
Clin.You are right, Stranger: that is what we must do.
634d ΑΘ.Οὐ γὰρ ἄν, Κλεινία, τηλικοῖσδε ἀνδράσιν πρέποι
τὸ τοιοῦτον.
Ath.Yes, for resentment would ill become men of our years.
ΚΛ.Οὐ γὰρ οὖν.
Clin.Ill indeed.
ΑΘ.Εἰ μὲν τοίνυν ὀρθῶς μή τις ἐπιτιμᾷ τῇ τε Λακωνικῇ
καὶ τῇ Κρητικῇ πολιτείᾳ, λόγος ἂν ἕτερος εἴη· τὰ δ'
οὖν λεγόμενα πρὸς τῶν πολλῶν ἴσως ἐγὼ μᾶλλον ἔχοιμ'
ἂν ὑμῶν ἀμφοτέρων λέγειν. ὑμῖν μὲν γάρ, εἴπερ καὶ μετρίως
κατεσκεύασται τὰ τῶν νόμων, εἷς τῶν καλλίστων ἂν
εἴη νόμων μὴ ζητεῖν τῶν νέων μηδένα ἐᾶν ποῖα καλῶς
634e αὐτῶν μὴ καλῶς ἔχει, μιᾷ δὲ φωνῇ καὶ ἐξ ἑνὸς στόματος
πάντας συμφωνεῖν ὡς πάντα καλῶς κεῖται θέντων θεῶν,
καὶ ἐάν τις ἄλλως λέγῃ, μὴ ἀνέχεσθαι τὸ παράπαν ἀκούοντας·
γέρων δὲ εἴ τίς τι συννοεῖ τῶν παρ' ὑμῖν, πρὸς
ἄρχοντά τε καὶ πρὸς ἡλικιώτην μηδενὸς ἐναντίον νέου
ποιεῖσθαι τοὺς τοιούτους λόγους.
Ath.Whether men are right or wrong in their censures of the Laconian polity and the Cretan—that is another story; anyhow, what is actually said by most men I, probably, am in a better position to state than either of you. For in your case (your laws being wisely framed) one of the best of your laws will be that which enjoins that none of the youth shall inquire which laws are wrong and which right, but all shall declare in unison, with one mouth and one voice, that all are rightly established by divine enactment, and shall turn a deaf ear to anyone who says otherwise; and further, that if any old man has any stricture to pass on any of your laws, he must not utter such views in the presence of any young man, but before a magistrate or one of his own age.
ΚΛ.Ὀρθότατά γε, ξένε, λέγεις, καὶ καθάπερ μάντις,
635a ἀπὼν τῆς τότε διανοίας τοῦ τιθέντος αὐτά, νῦν ἐπιεικῶς μοι
δοκεῖς ἐστοχάσθαι καὶ σφόδρα ἀληθῆ λέγειν.
Clin.A very sound observation, Stranger; and just like a diviner, far away though you are from the original lawgiver, you have fairly spotted, as I think, his intention, and described it with perfect truth.
ΑΘ.Οὐκοῦν ἡμῖν τὰ νῦν ἐρημία μὲν νέων, αὐτοὶ δ'
ἕνεκα γήρως ἀφείμεθ' ὑπὸ τοῦ νομοθέτου διαλεγόμενοι περὶ
αὐτῶν τούτων μόνοι πρὸς μόνους μηδὲν ἂν πλημμελεῖν;
Ath.Well, there are no young people with us now; so we may be permitted by the lawgiver, old as we are, to discuss these matters among ourselves privately without offence.
ΚΛ.Ἔστι ταῦτα οὕτως, εἰς καὶ μηδέν γε ἀνῇς ἐπιτιμῶν
τοῖς νόμοις ἡμῶν· οὐ γὰρ τό γε γνῶναί τι τῶν μὴ
καλῶν ἄτιμον, ἀλλὰ ἴασιν ἐξ αὐτοῦ συμβαίνει γίγνεσθαι
635b τῷ μὴ φθόνῳ τὰ λεγόμενα ἀλλ' εὐνοίᾳ δεχομένῳ.
Clin.That is so. Do you, then, have no scruple in censuring our laws; for there is nothing discreditable in being told of some flaw; rather it is just this which leads to a remedy, if the criticism be accepted not peevishly but in a friendly spirit.
ΑΘ.Καλῶς· οὐ μὴν ἐπιτιμῶν γε ἐρῶ τοῖς νόμοις πω,
πρὶν βεβαίως εἰς δύναμιν διασκέψασθαι, μᾶλλον δὲ ἀπορῶν.
ὑμῖν γὰρ νομοθέτης μόνοις Ἑλλήνων καὶ βαρβάρων, ὧν
ἡμεῖς πυνθανόμεθα, τῶν μεγίστων ἡδονῶν καὶ παιδιῶν ἐπέταξεν
ἀπέχεσθαι καὶ μὴ γεύεσθαι, τὸ δὲ τῶν λυπῶν καὶ
φόβων, ὅπερ ἄρτι διεληλύθαμεν, ἡγήσατο εἴ τις ἐκ παίδων
635c φευξεῖται διὰ τέλους, ὁπόταν εἰς ἀναγκαίους ἔλθῃ πόνους
καὶ φόβους καὶ λύπας, φευξεῖσθαι τοὺς ἐν ἐκείνοις γεγυμνασμένους
καὶ δουλεύσειν αὐτοῖς. ταὐτὸν δὴ τοῦτ', οἶμαι,
καὶ πρὸς τὰς ἡδονὰς ἔδει διανοεῖσθαι τὸν αὐτὸν νομοθέτην,
λέγοντα αὐτὸν πρὸς ἑαυτὸν ὡς ἡμῖν ἐκ νέων εἰ ἄπειροι τῶν
μεγίστων ἡδονῶν οἱ πολῖται γενήσονται, καὶ ἀμελέτητοι
γιγνόμενοι ἐν ταῖς ἡδοναῖς καρτερεῖν καὶ μηδὲν τῶν αἰσχρῶν
ἀναγκάζεσθαι ποιεῖν, ἕνεκα τῆς γλυκυθυμίας τῆς πρὸς τὰς
635d ἡδονὰς ταὐτὸν πείσονται τοῖς ἡττωμένοις τῶν φόβων· δουλεύσουσι
τρόπον ἕτερον καὶ ἔτ' αἰσχίω τοῖς γε δυναμένοις
καρτερεῖν ἐν ταῖς ἡδοναῖς καὶ τοῖς κεκτημένοις τὰ περὶ τὰς
ἡδονάς, ἀνθρώποις ἐνίοτε παντάπασι κακοῖς, καὶ τὴν ψυχὴν
τῇ μὲν δούλην τῇ δὲ ἐλευθέραν ἕξουσιν, καὶ οὐκ ἄξιοι ἁπλῶς
ἀνδρεῖοι καὶ ἐλευθέριοι ἔσονται προσαγορεύεσθαι. σκοπεῖτε
οὖν εἴ τι τῶν νῦν λεγομένων ὑμῖν κατὰ τρόπον δοκεῖ
λέγεσθαι.
Ath.Good! But until I have investigated your laws as carefully as I can I shall not censure them but rather express the doubts I feel. You alone of Greeks and barbarians, so far as I can discover, possess a lawgiver who charged you to abstain from the greatest of pleasures and amusements and taste them not; but concerning pains and fears, as we said before, he held the view that anyone who shuns them continuously from childhood onward, when confronted with unavoidable hardships and fears and pains, will be put to flight by the men who are trained in such things, and will become their slave. Now I presume that this same lawgiver should have held the same view about pleasures as well, and should have argued with himself that, if our citizens grow up from their youth unpracticed in the greatest pleasures, the consequence must be that, when they find themselves amongst pleasures without being trained in the duty of resisting them and of refusing to commit any disgraceful act, because of the natural attraction of pleasures, they will suffer the same fate as those who are worsted by fears: they will, that is to say, in another and still more shameful fashion be enslaved by those who are able to hold out amidst pleasures and those who are versed in the art of pleasure,—people who are sometimes wholly vicious: thus their condition of soul will be partly enslaved and partly free, and they will not deserve to be called, without qualification, free men and men of courage. Consider, then, whether you at all approve these remarks of mine.
635e ΚΛ.Δοκεῖ μὲν ἡμῖν γέ πως λεγομένου τοῦ λόγου· περὶ
δὲ τηλικούτων εὐθὺς πεπιστευκέναι ῥᾳδίως μὴ νέων τε
μᾶλλον καὶ ἀνοήτων.
Clin.On the face of them, we are inclined to approve; but to yield quick and easy credence in matters of such importance would, I fear, be rash and thoughtless.
ΑΘ.Ἀλλ' εἰ τὸ μετὰ ταῦτα διεξίοιμεν ὧν προυθέμεθα,
Κλεινία τε καὶ Λακεδαιμόνιε ξένεμετ' ἀνδρείαν γὰρ δὴ
σωφροσύνης πέρι λέγωμεντὶ διαφέρον ἐν ταύταις ταῖς
πολιτείαις ταῖς τῶν εἰκῇ πολιτευομένων ἀνευρήσομεν,
636a ὥσπερ τὰ περὶ τὸν πόλεμον νυνδή;
Ath.Well then, O Clinias, and thou, Stranger of Lacedaemon, suppose we discuss the second of the subjects we proposed, and take temperance next after courage: shall we discover any point in which these polities are superior to those framed at random, as we found just now in regard to their military organization?
ΜΕ.Σχεδὸν οὐ ῥᾴδιον· ἀλλ' ἔοικεν γὰρ τά τε συσσίτια
καὶ τὰ γυμνάσια καλῶς ηὑρῆσθαι πρὸς ἀμφοτέρας.
Meg.Hardly an easy matter! Yet probably the common meals and the gymnasia are well devised to foster both these virtues.
ΑΘ.Ἔοικεν δῆτα, ξένοι, χαλεπὸν εἶναι τὸ περὶ τὰς
πολιτείας ἀναμφισβητήτως ὁμοίως ἔργῳ καὶ λόγῳ γίγνεσθαι·
κινδυνεύει γάρ, καθάπερ ἐν τοῖς σώμασιν, οὐ δυνατὸν εἶναι
προστάξαι τι πρὸς ἓν σῶμα ἓν ἐπιτήδευμα, ἐν οὐκ ἂν
φανείη ταὐτὸν τοῦτο τὰ μὲν βλάπτον τὰ ἡμῶν σώματα,
636b τὰ δὲ καὶ ὠφελοῦν. ἐπεὶ καὶ τὰ γυμνάσια ταῦτα καὶ τὰ
συσσίτια πολλὰ μὲν ἄλλα νῦν ὠφελεῖ τὰς πόλεις, πρὸς δὲ
τὰς στάσεις χαλεπάδηλοῦσιν δὲ Μιλησίων καὶ Βοιωτῶν
καὶ Θουρίων παῖδεςκαὶ δὴ καὶ παλαιὸν νόμον δοκεῖ τοῦτο
τὸ ἐπιτήδευμα καὶ κατὰ φύσιν, τὰς περὶ τὰ ἀφροδίσια
ἡδονὰς οὐ μόνον ἀνθρώπων ἀλλὰ καὶ θηρίων, διεφθαρκέναι.
καὶ τούτων τὰς ὑμετέρας πόλεις πρώτας ἄν τις αἰτιῷτο καὶ
636c ὅσαι τῶν ἄλλων μάλιστα ἅπτονται τῶν γυμνασίων· καὶ εἴτε
παίζοντα εἴτε σπουδάζοντα ἐννοεῖν δεῖ τὰ τοιαῦτα, ἐννοητέον
ὅτι τῇ θηλείᾳ καὶ τῇ τῶν ἀρρένων φύσει εἰς κοινωνίαν ἰούσῃ
τῆς γεννήσεως περὶ ταῦτα ἡδονὴ κατὰ φύσιν ἀποδεδόσθαι
δοκεῖ, ἀρρένων δὲ πρὸς ἄρρενας θηλειῶν πρὸς θηλείας
παρὰ φύσιν καὶ τῶν πρώτων τὸ τόλμημ' εἶναι δι' ἀκράτειαν
ἡδονῆς. πάντες δὲ δὴ Κρητῶν τὸν περὶ Γανυμήδη μῦθον
636d κατηγοροῦμεν ὡς λογοποιησάντων τούτων· ἐπειδὴ παρὰ Διὸς
αὐτοῖς οἱ νόμοι πεπιστευμένοι ἦσαν γεγονέναι, τοῦτον τὸν
μῦθον προστεθηκέναι κατὰ τοῦ Διός, ἵνα ἑπόμενοι δὴ τῷ
θεῷ καρπῶνται καὶ ταύτην τὴν ἡδονήν. τὸ μὲν οὖν τοῦ
μύθου χαιρέτω, νόμων δὲ πέρι διασκοπουμένων ἀνθρώπων
ὀλίγου πᾶσά ἐστιν σκέψις περί τε τὰς ἡδονὰς καὶ τὰς
λύπας ἔν τε πόλεσιν καὶ ἐν ἰδίοις ἤθεσιν· δύο γὰρ αὗται
πηγαὶ μεθεῖνται φύσει ῥεῖν, ὧν μὲν ἀρυτόμενος ὅθεν τε
636e δεῖ καὶ ὁπότε καὶ ὁπόσον εὐδαιμονεῖ, καὶ πόλις ὁμοίως καὶ
ἰδιώτης καὶ ζῷον ἅπαν, δ' ἀνεπιστημόνως ἅμα καὶ ἐκτὸς
τῶν καιρῶν τἀναντία ἂν ἐκείνῳ ζῴη.
Ath.In truth, Strangers, it seems a difficult thing for State institutions to be equally beyond criticism both in theory and in practice. Their case resembles that of the human body, where it seems impossible to prescribe any given treatment for each case without finding that this same prescription is partly beneficial and partly injurious to the body. So these common meals, for example, and these gymnasia, while they are at present beneficial to the States in many other respects, yet in the event of civil strife they prove dangerous (as is shown by the case of the youth of Miletus, Bocotia and Thurii); and, moreover, this institution, when of old standing, is thought to have corrupted the pleasures of love which are natural not to men only but also natural to beasts. For this your States are held primarily responsible, and along with them all others that especially encourage the use of gymnasia. And whether one makes the observation in earnest or in jest, one certainly should not fail to observe that when male unites with female for procreation the pleasure experienced is held to be due to nature, but contrary to nature when male mates with male or female with female, and that those first guilty of such enormities were impelled by their slavery to pleasure. And we all accuse the Cretans of concocting the story about Ganymede. Because it was the belief that they derived their laws from Zeus, they added on this story about Zeus in order that they might be following his example in enjoying this pleasure as well. Now with the story itself we have no more concern; but when men are investigating the subject of laws their investigation deals almost entirely with pleasures and pains, whether in States or in individuals. These are the two fountains which gush out by nature’s impulse; and whoever draws from them a due supply at the due place and time is blessed—be it a State or an individual or any kind of creature; but whosoever does so without understanding and out of due season will fare contrariwise.
ΜΕ.Λέγεται μὲν ταῦτα, ξένε, καλῶς πως· οὐ μὴν
ἀλλ' ἀφασία γ' ἡμᾶς λαμβάνει τί ποτε χρὴ λέγειν πρὸς
ταῦτα, ὅμως δ' ἔμοιγε ὀρθῶς δοκεῖ τὸ τὰς ἡδονὰς φεύγειν
διακελεύεσθαι τόν γε ἐν Λακεδαίμονι νομοθέτην, περὶ δὲ
τῶν ἐν Κνωσῷ νόμων ὅδε, ἂν ἐθέλῃ, βοηθήσει. τὰ δ' ἐν
637a Σπάρτῃ κάλλιστ' ἀνθρώπων δοκεῖ μοι κεῖσθαι τὰ περὶ τὰς
ἡδονάς· οὗ γὰρ μάλιστ' ἄνθρωποι καὶ μεγίσταις προσπίπτουσιν
ἡδοναῖς καὶ ὕβρεσι καὶ ἀνοίᾳ πάσῃ, τοῦτ' ἐξέβαλεν
νόμος ἡμῶν ἐκ τῆς χώρας συμπάσης, καὶ οὔτ' ἂν ἐπ'
ἀγρῶν ἴδοις, οὔτ' ἐν ἄστεσιν ὅσων Σπαρτιάταις μέλει, συμπόσια
οὐδ' ὁπόσα τούτοις συνεπόμενα πάσας ἡδονὰς κινεῖ
κατὰ δύναμιν, οὐδ' ἔστιν ὅστις ἂν ἀπαντῶν κωμάζοντί τινι
637b μετὰ μέθης οὐκ ἂν τὴν μεγίστην δίκην εὐθὺς ἐπιθείη, καὶ οὐδ'
ἂν Διονύσια πρόφασιν ἔχοντ' αὐτὸν λύσαιτο, ὥσπερ ἐν
ἁμάξαις εἶδόν ποτε παρ' ὑμῖν ἐγώ, καὶ ἐν Τάραντι δὲ
παρὰ τοῖς ἡμετέροις ἀποίκοις πᾶσαν ἐθεασάμην τὴν πόλιν
περὶ τὰ Διονύσια μεθύουσαν· παρ' ἡμῖν δ' οὐκ ἔστ' οὐδὲν
τοιοῦτον.
Meg.What you say, Stranger, is excellent, I suppose; nonetheless I am at a loss to know what reply I should make to it. Still, in my opinion, the Lacedaemonian lawgiver was right in ordaining the avoidance of pleasures, while as to the laws of Cnosus—our friend Clinias, if he thinks fit, will defend them. The rules about pleasures at Sparta seem to me the best in the world. For our law banished entirely from the land that institution which gives the most occasion for men to fall into excessive pleasures and riotous and follies of every description; neither in the country nor in the cities controlled by Spartiates is a drinking-club to be seen nor any of the practices which belong to such and foster to the utmost all kinds of pleasure. Indeed there is not a man who would not punish at once and most severely any drunken reveller he chanced to meet with, nor would even the feast of Dionysus serve as an excuse to save him—a revel such as I once upon a time witnessed on the wagons in your country; and at our colony of Tarentum, too, saw the whole city drunk at the Dionysia. But with us no such thing is possible.
ΑΘ. Λακεδαιμόνιε ξένε, ἐπαινετὰ μὲν πάντ' ἐστὶν τὰ
τοιαῦτα, ὅπου τινὲς ἔνεισιν καρτερήσεις, ὅπου δὲ ἀνεῖνται,
637c βλακικώτερα· ταχὺ γάρ σου λάβοιτ' ἄν τις τῶν παρ' ἡμῶν
ἀμυνόμενος, δεικνὺς τὴν τῶν γυναικῶν παρ' ὑμῖν ἄνεσιν.
ἅπασιν δὴ τοῖς τοιούτοις, καὶ ἐν Τάραντι καὶ παρ' ἡμῖν καὶ
παρ' ὑμῖν δέ, μία ἀπόκρισις ἀπολύεσθαι δοκεῖ τοῦ μὴ κακῶς
ἔχειν ἀλλ' ὀρθῶς· πᾶς γὰρ ἀποκρινόμενος ἐρεῖ θαυμάζοντι
ξένῳ, τὴν παρ' αὐτοῖς ἀήθειαν ὁρῶντι, "Μὴ θαύμαζε, ξένε·
νόμος ἔσθ' ἡμῖν οὗτος, ἴσως δ' ὑμῖν περὶ αὐτῶν τούτων
637d ἕτερος." ἡμῖν δ' ἐστὶ νῦν, φίλοι ἄνδρες, οὐ περὶ τῶν
ἀνθρώπων τῶν ἄλλων λόγος, ἀλλὰ περὶ τῶν νομοθετῶν
αὐτῶν κακίας τε καὶ ἀρετῆς. ἔτι γὰρ οὖν εἴπωμεν πλείω
περὶ ἁπάσης μέθης· οὐ γὰρ σμικρόν ἐστιν τὸ ἐπιτήδευμα
οὐδὲ φαύλου διαγνῶναι νομοθέτου. λέγω δ' οὐκ οἴνου περὶ
πόσεως τὸ παράπαν μή, μέθης δὲ αὐτῆς πέρι, πότερον
ὥσπερ Σκύθαι χρῶνται καὶ Πέρσαι χρηστέον, καὶ ἔτι
Καρχηδόνιοι καὶ Κελτοὶ καὶ Ἴβηρες καὶ Θρᾷκες, πολεμικὰ
637e σύμπαντα ὄντα ταῦτα γένη, καθάπερ ὑμεῖς· ὑμεῖς μὲν γάρ,
ὅπερ λέγεις, τὸ παράπαν ἀπέχεσθε, Σκύθαι δὲ καὶ Θρᾷκες
ἀκράτῳ παντάπασι χρώμενοι, γυναῖκές τε καὶ αὐτοί, καὶ κατὰ
τῶν ἱματίων καταχεόμενοι, καλὸν καὶ εὔδαιμον ἐπιτήδευμα
ἐπιτηδεύειν νενομίκασι. Πέρσαι δὲ σφόδρα μὲν χρῶνται
καὶ ταῖς ἄλλαις τρυφαῖς ἃς ὑμεῖς ἀποβάλλετε, ἐν τάξει δὲ
μᾶλλον τούτων.
Ath.O Stranger of Lacedaemon, all such indulgences are praiseworthy where there exists a strain of firm moral fiber, but where this is relaxed they are quite stupid. An Athenian in self-defence might at once retaliate by pointing to the looseness of the women in your country. Regarding all such practices, whether in Tarentum, Athens or Sparta, there is one answer that is held to vindicate their propriety. The universal answer to the stranger who is surprised at seeing in a State some unwonted practice is this: Be not surprised, O Stranger: such is the custom with us: with you, perhaps, the custom in these matters is different. But, my dear Sirs, our argument now is not concerned with the rest of mankind but with the goodness or badness of the lawgivers themselves. So let us deal more fully with the subject of drunkenness in general for it is a practice of no slight importance, and it requires no mean legislator to understand it. I am now referring not to the drinking or non-drinking of wine generally, but to drunkenness pure and simple, and the question is—ought we to deal with it as the Scythians and Persians do and the Carthaginians also, and Celts, Iberians and Thracians, who are all warlike races, or as you Spartans do; for you, as you say, abstain from it altogether, whereas the Scythians and Thracians, both men and women, take their wine neat and let it pour down over their clothes, and regard this practice of theirs as a noble and splendid practice; and the Persians indulge greatly in these and other luxurious habits which you reject, albeit in a more orderly fashion than the others.
638a ΜΕ. λῷστε, διώκομεν δέ γε ἡμεῖς πάντας τούτους,
ὅταν ὅπλα εἰς τὰς χεῖρας λάβωμεν.
Meg.But we, my good Sir, when we take arms in our hands, put all these people to rout.
ΑΘ. ἄριστε, μὴ λέγε ταῦτα· πολλαὶ γὰρ δὴ φυγαὶ
καὶ διώξεις ἀτέκμαρτοι γεγόνασίν τε καὶ ἔσονται, διὸ φανερὸν
ὅρον τοῦτον οὐκ ἄν ποτε λέγοιμεν, ἀλλὰ ἀμφισβητήσιμον,
περὶ καλῶν ἐπιτηδευμάτων καὶ μή, νίκην τε καὶ ἧτταν
λέγοντες μάχης. ἐπειδὴ γὰρ αἱ μείζους τὰς ἐλάττους πόλεις
638b νικῶσιν μαχόμεναι καὶ καταδουλοῦνται, Συρακόσιοι μὲν
Λοκρούς, οἳ δὴ δοκοῦσιν εὐνομώτατοι τῶν περὶ ἐκεῖνον τὸν
τόπον γεγονέναι, Κείους δὲ Ἀθηναῖοι· μυρία δὲ ἄλλα τοιαῦτ'
ἂν εὕροιμεν. ἀλλὰ περὶ αὐτοῦ ἑκάστου ἐπιτηδεύματος πειρώμεθα
λέγοντες πείθειν ἡμᾶς αὐτούς, νίκας δὲ καὶ ἥττας
ἐκτὸς λόγου τὰ νῦν θῶμεν, λέγωμεν δ' ὡς τὸ μὲν τοιόνδ'
ἐστὶν καλόν, τὸ δὲ τοιόνδε οὐ καλόν. πρῶτον δ' ἀκούσατέ
τί μου, περὶ αὐτῶν τούτων ὡς δεῖ τό τε χρηστὸν καὶ τὸ μὴ
σκοπεῖν.
Ath.Say not so, my dear Sir; for there have been, in fact, in the past and there will be in the future many a flight and many a pursuit which are past explaining, so that victory or defeat in battle could never be called a decisive, but rather a questionable, test of the goodness or badness of an institution. Larger States, for example, are victorious in battle over smaller States, and we find the Syracusans subjugating the Locrians, who are reputed to have been the best-governed of the peoples in that part of the world: and the Athenians the Ceians,—and we could find countless other instances of the same kind. So let us leave victories and defeats out of account for the present, and discuss each several institution on its own merits in the endeavor to convince ourselves, and explain in what way one kind is good and another had. And to begin with, listen to my account of the right method of inquiring into the merits and demerits of institutions.
638c ΜΕ.Πῶς οὖν δὴ λέγεις;
Meg.What is your account of it?
ΑΘ.Δοκοῦσί μοι πάντες οἱ λόγῳ τι λαβόντες ἐπιτήδευμα,
καὶ προθέμενοι ψέγειν αὐτὸ ἐπαινεῖν εὐθὺς ῥηθέν,
οὐδαμῶς δρᾶν κατὰ τρόπον, ἀλλὰ ταὐτὸν ποιεῖν οἷον εἰ δή
τις, ἐπαινέσαντός τινος πυροὺς βρῶμα ὡς ἀγαθόν, εὐθὺς
ψέγοι, μὴ διαπυθόμενος αὐτοῦ μήτε τὴν ἐργασίαν μήτε τὴν
προσφοράν, ὅντινα τρόπον καὶ οἷστισι καὶ μεθ' ὧν καὶ ὅπως
ἔχοντα καὶ ὅπως προσφέρειν ἔχουσιν. νῦν δὴ ταὐτόν μοι
638d δοκοῦμεν ἡμεῖς ἐν τοῖς λόγοις ποιεῖν· περὶ μέθης γὰρ ἀκούσαντες
τοσοῦτον μόνον, εὐθὺς οἱ μὲν ψέγειν αὐτό, οἱ δ'
ἐπαινεῖν, καὶ μάλα ἀτόπως. μάρτυσιν γὰρ καὶ ἐπαινέταις
χρώμενοι ἐπαινοῦμεν ἑκάτεροι, καὶ οἱ μέν, ὅτι πολλοὺς
παρεχόμεθα, ἀξιοῦμέν τι λέγειν κύριον, οἱ δέ, ὅτι τοὺς μὴ
χρωμένους αὐτῷ ὁρῶμεν νικῶντας μαχομένους· ἀμφισβητεῖται
δ' αὖ καὶ τοῦτο ἡμῖν. εἰ μὲν δὴ καὶ περὶ ἑκάστων
638e οὕτω καὶ τῶν ἄλλων νομίμων διέξιμεν, οὐκ ἂν ἔμοιγε κατὰ
νοῦν εἴη, τρόπον δὲ ἄλλον, ὃν ἐμοὶ φαίνεται δεῖν, ἐθέλω
λέγειν περὶ αὐτοῦ τούτου, τῆς μέθης, πειρώμενος ἂν ἄρα
δύνωμαι τὴν περὶ ἁπάντων τῶν τοιούτων ὀρθὴν μέθοδον
ἡμῖν δηλοῦν, ἐπειδὴ καὶ μυρία ἐπὶ μυρίοις ἔθνη περὶ αὐτῶν
ἀμφισβητοῦντα ὑμῖν πόλεσι δυοῖν τῷ λόγῳ διαμάχοιτ' ἄν.
Ath.In my opinion all those who take up an institution for discussion and propose, at its first mention, to censure it or commend it, are proceeding in quite the wrong way. Their action is like that of a man who, when he hears somebody praising cheese as a good food, at once starts to disparage it, without having learnt either its effects or its mode of administration—in what form it should be administered and by whom and with what accompaniments, and in what condition and to people in what condition. This, as it seems to me, is exactly what we are now doing in our discourse. At the first mention of the mere name of drunkenness, straightway we fall, some of us to blaming it, others to praising it; which is most absurd. Each party relies on the aid of witnesses, and while the one party claims that its statement is convincing on the ground of the large number of witnesses produced, the other does so on the ground that those who abstain from wine are seen to be victorious in battle; and then this point also gives rise to a dispute. Now it would not be at all to my taste to go through all the rest of the legal arrangements in this fashion; and about our present subject, drunkenness, I desire to speak in quite another fashion (in my opinion, the right fashion), and I shall endeavor, if possible, to exhibit the correct method for dealing with all such subjects for indeed the view of them adopted by your two States would be assailed and controverted by thousands upon thousands of nations.
ΜΕ.Καὶ μὴν εἴ τινα ἔχομεν ὀρθὴν σκέψιν τῶν τοιούτων,
639a οὐκ ἀποκνητέον ἀκούειν.
Meg.Assuredly, if we know of a right method of investigating these matters, we are bound to give it a ready hearing.
ΑΘ.Σκεψώμεθα δή πῃ τῇδε. φέρε, εἴ τις αἰγῶν τροφήν,
καὶ τὸ ζῷον αὐτὸ κτῆμα ὡς ἔστιν καλόν, ἐπαινοῖ, ἄλλος δέ
τις ἑωρακὼς αἶγας χωρὶς νεμομένας αἰπόλου ἐν ἐργασίμοις
χωρίοις δρώσας κακὰ διαψέγοι, καὶ πᾶν θρέμμα ἄναρχον
μετὰ κακῶν ἀρχόντων ἰδὼν οὕτω μέμφοιτο, τὸν τοῦ τοιούτου
ψόγον ἡγούμεθα ὑγιὲς ἄν ποτε ψέξαι καὶ ὁτιοῦν;
Ath.Let us adopt some such method as this. Suppose that a man were to praise the rearing of goats, and the goat itself as a fine thing to own, and suppose also that another man, who had seen goats grazing without a herd and doing damage on cultivated land, were to run them down, and find fault equally with every animal he saw that was without a master or under a bad master,—would such a man’s censure, about any object whatsoever, be of the smallest value?
ΜΕ.Καὶ πῶς;
Meg.Certainly not.
ΑΘ.Χρηστὸς δὲ ἄρχων ἔσθ' ἡμῖν ἐν πλοίοις πότερον ἐὰν
639b τὴν ναυτικὴν ἔχῃ ἐπιστήμην μόνον, ἄντ' οὖν ναυτιᾷ ἄντε μή,
πῶς ἂν λέγοιμεν;
Ath.Do we call the man who possesses only nautical science, whether or not he suffers from sea-sickness, a good commander on a ship—or what?
ΜΕ.Οὐδαμῶς, ἄν γε πρὸς τῇ τέχνῃ ἔχῃ καὶ τοῦτο τὸ
πάθος λέγεις.
Meg.By no means good, if along with his skill he suffers in the way you say.
ΑΘ.Τί δ' ἄρχων στρατοπέδων; ἆρ' ἐὰν τὴν πολεμικὴν
ἔχῃ ἐπιστήμην, ἱκανὸς ἄρχειν, κἂν δειλὸς ὢν ἐν τοῖς δεινοῖς
ὑπὸ μέθης τοῦ φόβου ναυτιᾷ;
Ath.And how about the army commander? Is a man fit for command, provided that he has military science, even though he be a coward and sea-sick with a kind of tipsy terror when danger comes?
ΜΕ.Καὶ πῶς;
Meg.Certainly not.
ΑΘ.Ἂν δὲ αὖ μήτε ἔχῃ τὴν τέχνην δειλός τε ;
Ath.And suppose he has no military skill, besides being a coward?
ΜΕ.Παντάπασίν τινα πονηρὸν λέγεις, καὶ οὐδαμῶς
ἀνδρῶν ἄρχοντα ἀλλά τινων σφόδρα γυναικῶν.
Meg.You are describing an utterly worthless fellow, not a commander of men at all, but of the most womanish of women.
639c ΑΘ.Τί δ' ἐπαινέτην ψέκτην κοινωνίας ἡστινοσοῦν
πέφυκέν τε ἄρχων εἶναι μετ' ἐκείνου τε ὠφέλιμός ἐστιν,
δὲ μήτε ἑωρακὼς εἴη ποτ' ὀρθῶς αὐτὴν αὑτῇ κοινωνοῦσαν
μετ' ἄρχοντος, ἀεὶ δὲ ἄναρχον μετὰ κακῶν ἀρχόντων
συνοῦσαν; οἰόμεθα δή ποτε τοὺς τοιούτους θεωροὺς τῶν
τοιούτων κοινωνιῶν χρηστόν τι ψέξειν ἐπαινέσεσθαι;
Ath.Now take the case of any social institution whatsoever which naturally has a commander and which, under its commander, is beneficial; and suppose that someone, who had never seen the conduct of the institution under its commander, but seen it only when with no commander or bad commanders, were to commend the institution or censure it: do we imagine that either the praise or the blame of such an observer of such an institution is of any value?
ΜΕ.Πῶς δ' ἄν, μηδέποτέ γε ἰδόντας μηδὲ συγγενομένους
639d ὀρθῶς γενομένῳ μηδενὶ τῶν τοιούτων κοινωνημάτων;
Meg.Certainly not, when the man has never seen nor shared in an institution of the kind that was properly conducted.
ΑΘ.Ἔχε δή· τῶν πολλῶν κοινωνιῶν συμπότας καὶ
συμπόσια θεῖμεν ἂν μίαν τινὰ συνουσίαν εἶναι;
Ath.Now stay a moment! Shall we lay it down that, of the numerous kinds of social institutions, that of banqueters and banquetings forms one?
ΜΕ.Καὶ σφόδρα γε.
Meg.Most certainly.
ΑΘ.Ταύτην οὖν μῶν ὀρθῶς γιγνομένην ἤδη τις πώποτε
ἐθεάσατο; καὶ σφῷν μὲν ἀποκρίνασθαι ῥᾴδιον ὡς οὐδεπώποτε
τὸ παράπανοὐ γὰρ ἐπιχώριον ὑμῖν τοῦτο οὐδὲ
νόμιμονἐγὼ δὲ ἐντετύχηκά τε πολλαῖς καὶ πολλαχοῦ, καὶ
προσέτι πάσας ὡς ἔπος εἰπεῖν διηρώτηκα, καὶ σχεδὸν ὅλην
639e μὲν οὐδεμίαν ὀρθῶς γιγνομένην ἑώρακα οὐδὲ ἀκήκοα, μόρια δ'
εἴ που σμικρὰ καὶ ὀλίγα, τὰ πολλὰ δὲ σύμπανθ' ὡς εἰπεῖν
διημαρτημένα.
Ath.Now has anyone ever yet beheld this institution rightly conducted? Both of you can easily make answer—Never yet at all, for with you this institution is neither customary nor legal; but I have come across many modes of banqueting in many places, and I have also inquired into nearly all of them, and I have scarcely seen or heard of a single one that was in all points rightly conducted; for if any were right at all, it was only in a few details, and most of them were almost entirely on the wrong lines.
ΚΛ.Πῶς δὴ ταῦτα, ξένε, λέγεις; εἰπὲ ἔτι σαφέστερον·
ἡμεῖς μὲν γάρ, ὅπερ εἶπες, ἀπειρίᾳ τῶν τοιούτων, οὐδὲ ἐντυγχάνοντες
640a ἂν ἴσως εὐθύς γε γνοῖμεν τό τε ὀρθὸν καὶ μὴ
γιγνόμενον ἐν αὐτοῖς.
Clin.What do you mean by that, Stranger? Explain yourself more clearly; for since we are (as you observed) without any experience of such institutions, even if we did come across them, we would probably fail to see at once what was right in them and what wrong.
ΑΘ.Εἰκὸς λέγεις· ἀλλ' ἐμοῦ φράζοντος πειρῶ μανθάνειν.
τὸ μὲν γὰρ ἐν πάσαις τε συνόδοις, καὶ κοινωνίαις πράξεων
ὡντινωνοῦν, ὡς ὀρθὸν πανταχοῦ ἑκάστοις ἄρχοντα εἶναι,
μανθάνεις;
Ath.That is very probable. Try, however, to learn from my description. This you understand—that in all gatherings and associations for any purpose whatsoever it is right that each group should always have a commander.
ΚΛ.Πῶς γὰρ οὔ;
Clin.Of course.
ΑΘ.Καὶ μὴν ἐλέγομεν νυνδὴ μαχομένων ὡς ἀνδρεῖον δεῖ
τὸν ἄρχοντ' εἶναι.
Ath.Moreover, we have recently said that the commander of fighting men must be courageous.
ΚΛ.Πῶς δ' οὔ;
Clin.Of course.
ΑΘ. μὴν ἀνδρεῖος τῶν δειλῶν ὑπὸ φόβων ἧττον
τεθορύβηται.
Ath.The courageous man is less perturbed by alarms than the coward.
640b ΚΛ.Καὶ τοῦτο οὕτως.
Clin.That is true, too.
ΑΘ.Εἰ δ' ἦν τις μηχανὴ μηδὲν τὸ παράπαν δεδιότα μηδὲ
θορυβούμενον ἐπιστῆσαι στρατοπέδῳ στρατηγόν, ἆρ' οὐ τοῦτ'
ἂν παντὶ τρόπῳ ἐπράττομεν;
Ath.Now if there had existed any device for putting an army in charge of a general who was absolutely impervious to fear or perturbation, should we not have made every effort to do so?
ΚΛ.Σφόδρα μὲν οὖν.
Clin.Most certainly.
ΑΘ.Νῦν δέ γε οὐ στρατοπέδου περὶ λέγομεν ἄρξοντος
ἐν ἀνδρῶν ὁμιλίαις ἐχθρῶν ἐχθροῖς μετὰ πολέμου, φίλων δ'
ἐν εἰρήνῃ πρὸς φίλους κοινωνησόντων φιλοφροσύνης.
Ath.But what we are discussing now is not the man who is to command an army in time of war, in meetings of foe with foe, but the man who is to command friends in friendly association with friends in time of peace.
ΚΛ.Ὀρθῶς.
Clin.Quite so.
640c ΑΘ.Ἔστιν δέ γε τοιαύτη συνουσία, εἴπερ ἔσται μετὰ
μέθης, οὐκ ἀθόρυβος. γάρ;
Ath.Such a gathering, if accompanied by drunkenness, is not free from disturbance, is it?
ΚΛ.Πῶς γάρ; ἀλλ' οἶμαι πᾶν τοὐναντίον.
Clin.Certainly not; quite the reverse, I imagine.
ΑΘ.Οὐκοῦν πρῶτον μὲν καὶ τούτοις ἄρχοντος δεῖ;
Ath.So those people also need, in the first place, a commander?
ΚΛ.Τί μήν; ὡς οὐδενί γε πράγματι.
Clin.Undoubtedly—they above all.
ΑΘ.Πότερον οὖν ἀθόρυβον, εἰ δυνατὸν εἴη, τὸν τοιοῦτον
ἄρχοντα ἐκπορίζεσθαι δεῖ;
Ath.Should we, if possible, provide them with a commander who is imperturbable?
ΚΛ.Πῶς γὰρ οὔ;
Clin.Certainly.
ΑΘ.Καὶ μὴν περί γε συνουσίας, ὡς ἔοικεν, αὐτὸν φρόνιμον
εἶναι δεῖ· γίγνεται γὰρ φύλαξ τῆς τε ὑπαρχούσης
640d φιλίας αὐτοῖς, καὶ ἔτι πλείονος ἐπιμελητὴς ὅπως ἔσται διὰ
τὴν τότε συνουσίαν.
Ath.Naturally, also, he should be wise about social gatherings. For he has both to preserve the friendliness which already exists among the company and to see that the present gathering promotes it still further.
ΚΛ.Ἀληθέστατα.
Clin.Very true.
ΑΘ.Οὐκοῦν νήφοντά τε καὶ σοφὸν ἄρχοντα μεθυόντων
δεῖ καθιστάναι, καὶ μὴ τοὐναντίον; μεθυόντων γὰρ μεθύων
καὶ νέος ἄρχων μὴ σοφός, εἰ μὴ κακὸν ἀπεργάσαιτό τι μέγα,
πολλῇ χρῷτ' ἂν ἀγαθῇ τύχῃ.
Ath.Then the commander we set over drunken men should be sober and wise, rather than the opposite? For a commander of drunkards who was himself drunken, young, and foolish would be very lucky if he escaped doing some serious mischief.
ΚΛ.Παμπόλλῃ μὲν οὖν.
Clin.Uncommonly lucky.
ΑΘ.Οὐκοῦν εἰ μὲν γιγνομένων ὡς δυνατὸν ὀρθότατα
τούτων ἐν ταῖς πόλεσι τῶν συνουσιῶν μέμφοιτό τις, ἐπικαλῶν
640e αὐτῷ τῷ πράγματι, τάχ' ἂν ὀρθῶς ἴσως μέμφοιτο· εἰ
δὲ ἁμαρτανόμενον ὡς οἷόν τε μάλιστα ἐπιτήδευμά τις ὁρῶν
λοιδορεῖ, πρῶτον μὲν δῆλον ὡς ἀγνοεῖ τοῦτ' αὐτὸ γιγνόμενον
οὐκ ὀρθῶς, εἶθ' ὅτι πᾶν τούτῳ τῷ τρόπῳ φανεῖται πονηρόν,
δεσπότου τε καὶ ἄρχοντος νήφοντος χωρὶς πραττόμενον. οὐ
συννοεῖς τοῦθ', ὅτι μεθύων κυβερνήτης καὶ πᾶς παντὸς ἄρχων
641a ἀνατρέπει πάντα εἴτε πλοῖα εἴτε ἅρματα εἴτε στρατόπεδον,
εἴθ' ὅτι ποτ' εἴη τὸ κυβερνώμενον ὑπ' αὐτοῦ;
Ath.Suppose, then, that a man were to find fault with such institutions in States where they are managed in the best possible way, having an objection to the institution in itself, he might perhaps be right in doing so but if a man abuses an institution when he sees it managed in the worst way possible, it is plain that he is ignorant, first, of the fact that it is badly conducted, and secondly, that every institution will appear similarly bad when it is carried on without a sober ruler and commander.

For surely you perceive that a sea-captain, and every commander of anything, if drunk, upsets everything, whether it be a ship or a chariot or an army or anything else that under his captaincy.

ΚΛ.Παντάπασιν τοῦτό γε ἀληθὲς εἴρηκας, ξένε· τοὐπὶ
τῷδε δ' ἡμῖν λέγε, τί ποτε, ἂν γίγνηται τοῦτο ὀρθὸν τὸ
περὶ τὰς πόσεις νόμιμον, ἀγαθὸν ἂν δράσειεν ἡμᾶς; οἷον,
νυνδὴ ἐλέγομεν, εἰ στράτευμα ὀρθῆς ἡγεμονίας τυγχάνοι, νίκη
πολέμου τοῖς ἑπομένοις ἂν γίγνοιτο, οὐ σμικρὸν ἀγαθόν, καὶ
641b τἆλλ' οὕτω· συμποσίου δὲ ὀρθῶς παιδαγωγηθέντος τί μέγα
ἰδιώταις τῇ πόλει γίγνοιτ' ἄν;
Clin.What you say, Stranger, is perfectly true. In the next place, then, tell us this:—suppose this institution of drinking were rightly conducted, of what possible benefit would it be to us? Take the case of an army, which we mentioned just now: there, given a right leader, his men will win victory in war, which is no small benefit; and so too with the other cases: but what solid advantage would accrue either to individuals or to a State from the right regulation of a wine-party?
ΑΘ.Τί δέ; παιδὸς ἑνὸς καὶ χοροῦ παιδαγωγηθέντος
κατὰ τρόπον ἑνός, τί μέγα τῇ πόλει φαῖμεν ἂν γίγνεσθαι;
τοῦτο οὕτως ἐρωτηθέντες εἴποιμεν ἂν ὡς ἑνὸς μὲν βραχύ τι
τῇ πόλει γίγνοιτ' ἂν ὄφελος, εἰ δ' ὅλως ἐρωτᾷς παιδείαν τῶν
παιδευθέντων τί μέγα τὴν πόλιν ὀνίνησιν, οὐ χαλεπὸν εἰπεῖν
ὅτι παιδευθέντες μὲν εὖ γίγνοιντ' ἂν ἄνδρες ἀγαθοί, γενόμενοι
641c δὲ τοιοῦτοι τά τε ἄλλα πράττοιεν καλῶς, ἔτι δὲ κἂν
νικῷεν τοὺς πολεμίους μαχόμενοι. παιδεία μὲν οὖν φέρει
καὶ νίκην, νίκη δ' ἐνίοτε ἀπαιδευσίαν· πολλοὶ γὰρ ὑβριστότεροι
διὰ πολέμων νίκας γενόμενοι μυρίων ἄλλων κακῶν δι'
ὕβριν ἐνεπλήσθησαν, καὶ παιδεία μὲν οὐδεπώποτε γέγονεν
Καδμεία, νῖκαι δὲ ἀνθρώποις πολλαὶ δὴ τοιαῦται γεγόνασίν
τε καὶ ἔσονται.
Ath.Well, what great gain should we say would accrue to the State from the right control of one single child or even of one band of children? To the question thus put to us we should reply that the State would benefit but little from one; if, however, you are putting a general question as to what solid advantage the State gains from the education of the educated, then it is quite simple to reply that well-educated men will prove good men, and being good they will conquer their foes in battle, besides acting nobly in other ways. Thus, while education brings also victory, victory sometimes brings lack of education for men have often grown more insolent because of victory in war, and through their insolence they have become filled with countless other vices; and whereas education has never yet proved to be Cadmeian, the victories which men win in war often have been, and will be, Cadmeian.
ΚΛ.Δοκεῖς ἡμῖν, φίλε, τὴν ἐν τοῖς οἴνοις κοινὴν
641d διατριβὴν ὡς εἰς παιδείας μεγάλην μοῖραν τείνουσαν λέγειν,
ἂν ὀρθῶς γίγνηται.
Clin.You are implying, my friend, as it seems to us, that the convivial gathering, when rightly conducted, is an important element in education.
ΑΘ.Τί μήν;
Ath.Assuredly.
ΚΛ.Ἔχοις ἂν οὖν τὸ μετὰ τοῦτ' εἰπεῖν ὡς ἔστιν τὸ νῦν
εἰρημένον ἀληθές;
Clin.Could you then show us, in the next place, how this statement is true?
ΑΘ.Τὸ μὲν ἀληθές, ξένε, διισχυρίζεσθαι ταῦτα οὕτως
ἔχειν, πολλῶν ἀμφισβητούντων, θεοῦ· εἰ δ' ὅπῃ ἐμοὶ φαίνεται
δεῖ λέγειν, οὐδεὶς φθόνος, ἐπείπερ ὡρμήκαμέν γε τοὺς λόγους
περὶ νόμων καὶ πολιτείας ποιεῖσθαι τὰ νῦν.
Ath.The truth of my statement, which is disputed by many, it is for God to assert; but I am quite ready to give, if required, my own opinion, now that we have, in fact, embarked on a discussion of laws and constitutions.
ΚΛ.Τοῦτ' αὐτὸ δὴ πειρώμεθα, τὸ σοὶ δοκοῦν περὶ τῶν
641e νῦν ἀμφισβητουμένων καταμαθεῖν.
Clin.Well, it is precisely your opinion about the questions now in dispute that we are trying to learn.
ΑΘ.Ἀλλὰ χρὴ ποιεῖν οὕτως, ὑμᾶς τε ἐπὶ τὸ μαθεῖν καὶ
ἐμὲ ἐπὶ τὸ δηλῶσαι πειρώμενον ἁμῶς γέ πως, συντεῖναι,
τὸν λόγον. πρῶτον δέ μου ἀκούσατε τὸ τοιόνδε. τὴν πόλιν
ἅπαντες ἡμῶν Ἕλληνες ὑπολαμβάνουσιν ὡς φιλόλογός τέ ἐστι
καὶ πολύλογος, Λακεδαίμονα δὲ καὶ Κρήτην, τὴν μὲν βραχύλογον,
τὴν δὲ πολύνοιαν μᾶλλον πολυλογίαν ἀσκοῦσαν·
642a σκοπῶ δὴ μὴ δόξαν ὑμῖν παράσχωμαι περὶ σμικροῦ πολλὰ
λέγειν, μέθης πέρι, σμικροῦ πράγματος, παμμήκη λόγον ἀνακαθαιρόμενος.
τὸ δὲ κατὰ φύσιν αὐτοῦ διόρθωσις οὐκ ἂν
δύναιτο ἄνευ μουσικῆς ὀρθότητός ποτε σαφὲς οὐδὲ ἱκανὸν
ἐν τοῖς λόγοις ἀπολαβεῖν, μουσικὴ δὲ ἄνευ παιδείας τῆς
πάσης οὐκ ἂν αὖ ποτε δύναιτο· ταῦτα δὲ παμπόλλων ἐστὶν
λόγων. ὁρᾶτε οὖν τί ποιῶμεν εἰ ταῦτα μὲν ἐάσαιμεν ἐν τῷ
642b παρόντι, μετεκβαῖμεν δ' εἰς ἕτερόν τινα νόμων πέρι λόγον.
Ath.Thus, then, we must do,—you must brace yourself in the effort to learn the argument, and I to expound it as best I can. But, first of all, I have a preliminary observation to make: our city, Athens, is, in the general opinion of the Greeks, both fond of talk and full of talk, but Lacedaemon is scant of talk, while Crete is more witty than wordy;

so I am afraid of making you think that I am a great talker about a small matter, if I spin out a discourse of prodigious length about the small matter of drunkenness. But the fact is that the right ordering of this could never be treated adequately and clearly in our discourse apart from rightness in music, nor could music, apart from education as a whole; and these require lengthy discussions. Consider, then, what we are to do: suppose we leave these matters over for the present, and take up some other legal topic instead.

ΜΕ. ξένε Ἀθηναῖε, οὐκ οἶσθ' ἴσως ὅτι τυγχάνει
ἡμῶν ἑστία τῆς πόλεως οὖσα ὑμῶν πρόξενος. ἴσως μὲν
οὖν καὶ πᾶσιν τοῖς παισίν, ἐπειδὰν ἀκούσωσιν ὅτι τινός
εἰσιν πόλεως πρόξενοι, ταύτῃ τις εὔνοια ἐκ νέων εὐθὺς
ἐνδύεται ἕκαστον ἡμῶν τῶν προξένων τῇ πόλει, ὡς δευτέρᾳ
οὔσῃ πατρίδι μετὰ τὴν αὑτοῦ πόλιν· καὶ δὴ καὶ ἐμοὶ νῦν
ταὐτὸν τοῦτο ἐγγέγονεν. ἀκούων γὰρ τῶν παίδων εὐθύς,
642c εἴ τι μέμφοιντο καὶ ἐπαινοῖεν Λακεδαιμόνιοι Ἀθηναίους,
ὡς " πόλις ὑμῶν, Μέγιλλε," ἔφασαν, "ἡμᾶς οὐ καλῶς
καλῶς ἔρρεξε" —ταῦτα δὴ ἀκούων, καὶ μαχόμενος πρὸς
αὐτὰ ὑπὲρ ὑμῶν ἀεὶ πρὸς τοὺς τὴν πόλιν εἰς ψόγον ἄγοντας,
πᾶσαν εὔνοιαν ἔσχον, καί μοι νῦν τε φωνὴ προσφιλὴς
ὑμῶν, τό τε ὑπὸ πολλῶν λεγόμενον, ὡς ὅσοι Ἀθηναίων
εἰσὶν ἀγαθοὶ διαφερόντως εἰσὶν τοιοῦτοι, δοκεῖ ἀληθέστατα
λέγεσθαι· μόνοι γὰρ ἄνευ ἀνάγκης αὐτοφυῶς, θείᾳ μοίρᾳ
642d ἀληθῶς καὶ οὔτι πλαστῶς εἰσιν ἀγαθοί. θαρρῶν δὴ ἐμοῦ γε
ἕνεκα λέγοις ἂν τοσαῦτα ὁπόσα σοι φίλον.
Meg.O Stranger of Athens, you are not, perhaps, aware that our family is, in fact, a proxenus of your State. It is probably true of all children that, when once they have been told that they are proxeni of a certain State, they conceive an affection for that State even from infancy, and each of them regards it as a second mother-land, next after his own country. That is precisely the feeling I now experience. For through hearing mere children crying out— whenever they, being the Lacedaemonians, were blaming the Athenians for anything or praising them—Your State, Megillus, has done us a bad turn or a good one,—through hearing such remarks, I say, and constantly fighting your battles against those who were thus decrying your State, I acquired a deep affection for it; so that now not only do I delight in your accent, but I regard as absolutely true the common saying that good Athenians are always incomparably good, for they alone are good not by outward compulsion but by inner disposition. Thus, so far as I am concerned, you may speak without fear and say all you please.
ΚΛ.Καὶ μήν, ξένε, καὶ τὸν παρ' ἐμοῦ λόγον ἀκούσας
τε καὶ ἀποδεξάμενος, θαρρῶν ὁπόσα βούλει λέγε. τῇδε γὰρ
ἴσως ἀκήκοας ὡς Ἐπιμενίδης γέγονεν ἀνὴρ θεῖος, ὃς ἦν ἡμῖν
οἰκεῖος, ἐλθὼν δὲ πρὸ τῶν Περσικῶν δέκα ἔτεσιν πρότερον
παρ' ὑμᾶς κατὰ τὴν τοῦ θεοῦ μαντείαν, θυσίας τε ἐθύσατό
642e τινας ἃς θεὸς ἀνεῖλεν, καὶ δὴ καὶ φοβουμένων τὸν Περσικὸν
Ἀθηναίων στόλον, εἶπεν ὅτι δέκα μὲν ἐτῶν οὐχ ἥξουσιν, ὅταν
δὲ ἔλθωσιν, ἀπαλλαγήσονται πράξαντες οὐδὲν ὧν ἤλπιζον,
παθόντες τε δράσαντες πλείω κακά. τότ' οὖν ἐξενώθησαν
ὑμῖν οἱ πρόγονοι ἡμῶν, καὶ εὔνοιαν ἐκ τόσου ἔγωγε ὑμῖν καὶ
643a οἱ ἡμέτεροι ἔχουσιν γονῆς.
Clin.My story, too, Stranger, when you hear it, will show you that you may boldly say all you wish. You have probably heard how that inspired man Epimenides, who was a family connection of ours, was born in Crete; and how ten years before the Persian War, in obedience to the oracle of the god, he went to Athens and offered certain sacrifices which the god had ordained; and how, moreover, when the Athenians were alarmed at the Persians’ expeditionary force, he made this prophecy—They will not come for ten years, and when they do come, they will return back again with all their hopes frustrated, and after suffering more woes than they inflict.

Then our forefathers became guest-friends of yours, and ever since both my fathers and I myself have cherished an affection for Athens.

ΑΘ.Τὰ μὲν τοίνυν ὑμέτερα ἀκούειν, ὡς ἔοικεν, ἕτοιμ' ἂν
εἴη· τὰ δ' ἐμὰ βούλεσθαι μὲν ἕτοιμα, δύνασθαι δὲ οὐ πάνυ
ῥᾴδια, ὅμως δὲ πειρατέον. πρῶτον δὴ οὖν πρὸς τὸν λόγον
ὁρισώμεθα παιδείαν τί ποτ' ἐστὶν καὶ τίνα δύναμιν ἔχει·
διὰ γὰρ ταύτης φαμὲν ἰτέον εἶναι τὸν προκεχειρισμένον ἐν τῷ
νῦν λόγον ὑφ' ἡμῶν, μέχριπερ ἂν πρὸς τὸν θεὸν ἀφίκηται.
Ath.Evidently, then, you are both ready to play your part as listeners. But as for my part, though the will is there, to compass the task is hard: still, I must try. In the first place, then, our argument requires that we should define education and describe its effects: that is the path on which our present discourse must proceed until it finally arrives at the god of Wine.
ΚΛ.Πάνυ μὲν οὖν δρῶμεν ταῦτα, εἴπερ σοί γε ἡδύ.
Clin.By all means let us do so, since it is your wish.
643b ΑΘ.Λέγοντος τοίνυν ἐμοῦ τί ποτε χρὴ φάναι παιδείαν
εἶναι, σκέψασθε ἂν ἀρέσκῃ τὸ λεχθέν.
Ath.Then while I am stating how education ought to be defined, you must be considering whether you are satisfied with my statement.
ΚΛ.Λέγοις ἄν.
Clin.Proceed with your statement.
ΑΘ.Λέγω δή, καί φημι τὸν ὁτιοῦν ἀγαθὸν ἄνδρα μέλλοντα
ἔσεσθαι τοῦτο αὐτὸ ἐκ παίδων εὐθὺς μελετᾶν δεῖν,
παίζοντά τε καὶ σπουδάζοντα ἐν τοῖς τοῦ πράγματος ἑκάστοις
προσήκουσιν. οἷον τὸν μέλλοντα ἀγαθὸν ἔσεσθαι γεωργὸν
τινα οἰκοδόμον, τὸν μὲν οἰκοδομοῦντά τι τῶν παιδείων
643c οἰκοδομημάτων παίζειν χρή, τὸν δ' αὖ γεωργοῦντα, καὶ ὄργανα
ἑκατέρῳ σμικρά, τῶν ἀληθινῶν μιμήματα, παρασκευάζειν τὸν
τρέφοντα αὐτῶν ἑκάτερον, καὶ δὴ καὶ τῶν μαθημάτων ὅσα
ἀναγκαῖα προμεμαθηκέναι προμανθάνειν, οἷον τέκτονα μετρεῖν
σταθμᾶσθαι καὶ πολεμικὸν ἱππεύειν παίζοντα τι τῶν
τοιούτων ἄλλο ποιοῦντα, καὶ πειρᾶσθαι διὰ τῶν παιδιῶν
ἐκεῖσε τρέπειν τὰς ἡδονὰς καὶ ἐπιθυμίας τῶν παίδων, οἷ
ἀφικομένους αὐτοὺς δεῖ τέλος ἔχειν. κεφάλαιον δὴ παιδείας
643d λέγομεν τὴν ὀρθὴν τροφήν, τοῦ παίζοντος τὴν ψυχὴν εἰς
ἔρωτα μάλιστα ἄξει τούτου δεήσει γενόμενον ἄνδρ' αὐτὸν
τέλειον εἶναι τῆς τοῦ πράγματος ἀρετῆς· ὁρᾶτε οὖν εἰ μέχρι
τούτου γε, ὅπερ εἶπον, ὑμῖν ἀρέσκει τὸ λεχθέν.
Ath.I will. What I assert is that every man who is going to be good at any pursuit must practice that special pursuit from infancy, by using all the implements of his pursuit both in his play and in his work. For example, the man who is to make a good builder must play at building toy houses, and to make a good farmer he must play at tilling land; and those who are rearing them must provide each child with toy tools modelled on real ones. Besides this, they ought to have elementary instruction in all the necessary subjects,—the carpenter, for instance, being taught in play the use of rule and measure, the soldier taught riding or some similar accomplishment. So, by means of their games, we should endeavor to turn the tastes and desires of the children in the direction of that object which forms their ultimate goal. First and foremost, education, we say, consists in that right nurture which most strongly draws the soul of the child when at play to a love for that pursuit of which, when he becomes a man, he must possess a perfect mastery. Now consider, as I said before, whether, up to this point, you are satisfied with this statement of mine.
ΚΛ.Πῶς γὰρ οὔ;
Clin.Certainly we are.
ΑΘ.Μὴ τοίνυν μηδ' λέγομεν εἶναι παιδείαν ἀόριστον
γένηται. νῦν γὰρ ὀνειδίζοντες ἐπαινοῦντές θ' ἑκάστων τὰς
τροφάς, λέγομεν ὡς τὸν μὲν πεπαιδευμένον ἡμῶν ὄντα τινά,
643e τὸν δὲ ἀπαίδευτον ἐνίοτε εἴς τε καπηλείας καὶ ναυκληρίας
καὶ ἄλλων τοιούτων μάλα πεπαιδευμένων σφόδρα ἀνθρώπων·
οὐ γὰρ ταῦτα ἡγουμένων, ὡς ἔοικ', εἶναι παιδείαν νῦν λόγος
ἂν εἴη, τὴν δὲ πρὸς ἀρετὴν ἐκ παίδων παιδείαν, ποιοῦσαν
ἐπιθυμητήν τε καὶ ἐραστὴν τοῦ πολίτην γενέσθαι τέλεον,
ἄρχειν τε καὶ ἄρχεσθαι ἐπιστάμενον μετὰ δίκης. ταύτην
644a τὴν τροφὴν ἀφορισάμενος λόγος οὗτος, ὡς ἐμοὶ φαίνεται,
νῦν βούλοιτ' ἂν μόνην παιδείαν προσαγορεύειν, τὴν δὲ εἰς
χρήματα τείνουσαν τινα πρὸς ἰσχύν, καὶ πρὸς ἄλλην
τινὰ σοφίαν ἄνευ νοῦ καὶ δίκης, βάναυσόν τ' εἶναι καὶ
ἀνελεύθερον καὶ οὐκ ἀξίαν τὸ παράπαν παιδείαν καλεῖσθαι.
ἡμεῖς δὴ μηδὲν ὀνόματι διαφερώμεθ' αὑτοῖς, ἀλλ' νυνδὴ
λόγος ἡμῖν ὁμολογηθεὶς μενέτω, ὡς οἵ γε ὀρθῶς πεπαιδευμένοι
σχεδὸν ἀγαθοὶ γίγνονται, καὶ δεῖ δὴ τὴν παιδείαν
644b μηδαμοῦ ἀτιμάζειν, ὡς πρῶτον τῶν καλλίστων τοῖς ἀρίστοις
ἀνδράσιν παραγιγνόμενον· καὶ εἴ ποτε ἐξέρχεται, δυνατὸν δ'
ἐστὶν ἐπανορθοῦσθαι, τοῦτ' ἀεὶ δραστέον διὰ βίου παντὶ κατὰ
δύναμιν.
Ath.But we must not allow our description of education to remain indefinite. For at present, when censuring or commending a man’s upbringing, we describe one man as educated and another as uneducated, though the latter may often be uncommonly well educated in the trade of a pedlar or a skipper, or some other similar occupation. But we, naturally, in our present discourse are not taking the view that such things as these make up education: the education we speak of is training from childhood in goodness, which makes a man eagerly desirous of becoming a perfect citizen, understanding how both to rule and be ruled righteously.

This is the special form of nurture to which, as I suppose, our present argument would confine the term education whereas an upbringing which aims only at money-making or physical strength, or even some mental accomplishment devoid of reason and justice, it would term vulgar and illiberal and utterly unworthy of the name education. Let us not, however, quarrel over a name, but let us abide by the statement we agreed upon just now, that those who are rightly educated become, as a rule, good, and that one should in no case disparage education, since it stands first among the finest gifts that are given to the best men; and if ever it errs from the right path, but can be put straight again, to this task every man, so long as he lives, must address himself with all his might.

ΚΛ.Ὀρθῶς, καὶ συγχωροῦμεν λέγεις.
Clin.You are right, and we agree with what you say.
ΑΘ.Καὶ μὴν πάλαι γε συνεχωρήσαμεν ὡς ἀγαθῶν μὲν
ὄντων τῶν δυναμένων ἄρχειν αὑτῶν, κακῶν δὲ τῶν μή.
Ath.Further, we agreed long ago that if men are capable of ruling themselves, they are good, but if incapable, bad.
ΚΛ.Λέγεις ὀρθότατα.
Clin.Quite true.
ΑΘ.Σαφέστερον ἔτι τοίνυν ἀναλάβωμεν τοῦτ' αὐτὸ ὅτι
644c ποτὲ λέγομεν. καί μοι δι' εἰκόνος ἀποδέξασθε ἐάν πως
δυνατὸς ὑμῖν γένωμαι δηλῶσαι τὸ τοιοῦτον.
Ath.Let us, then, re-state more clearly what we meant by this. With your permission, I will make use of an illustration in the hope of explaining the matter.
ΚΛ.Λέγε μόνον.
Clin.Go ahead.
ΑΘ.Οὐκοῦν ἕνα μὲν ἡμῶν ἕκαστον αὐτὸν τιθῶμεν;
Ath.May we assume that each of us by himself is a single unit?
ΚΛ.Ναί.
Clin.Yes.
ΑΘ.Δύο δὲ κεκτημένον ἐν αὑτῷ συμβούλω ἐναντίω τε
καὶ ἄφρονε, προσαγορεύομεν ἡδονὴν καὶ λύπην;
Ath.And that each possesses within himself two antagonistic and foolish counsellors, whom we call by the names of pleasure and pain?
ΚΛ.Ἔστι ταῦτα.
Clin.That is so.
ΑΘ.Πρὸς δὲ τούτοιν ἀμφοῖν αὖ δόξας μελλόντων, οἷν
κοινὸν μὲν ὄνομα ἐλπίς, ἴδιον δέ, φόβος μὲν πρὸ λύπης
644d ἐλπίς, θάρρος δὲ πρὸ τοῦ ἐναντίου· ἐπὶ δὲ πᾶσι τούτοις
λογισμὸς ὅτι ποτ' αὐτῶν ἄμεινον χεῖρον, ὃς γενόμενος
δόγμα πόλεως κοινὸν νόμος ἐπωνόμασται.
Ath.And that, besides these two, each man possesses opinions about the future, which go by the general name of expectations; and of these, that which precedes pain bears the special name of fear, and that which precedes pleasure the special name of confidence; and in addition to all these there is calculation, pronouncing which of them is good, which bad; and calculation, when it has become the public decree of the State, is named law.
ΚΛ.Μόγις μέν πως ἐφέπομαι, λέγε μὴν τὸ μετὰ ταῦτα
ὡς ἑπομένου.
Clin.I have some difficulty in keeping pace with you: assume, however, that I do so, and proceed.
ΜΕ.Καὶ ἐν ἐμοὶ μὴν ταὐτὸν τοῦτο πάθος ἔνι.
Meg.I am in exactly the same predicament.
ΑΘ.Περὶ δὴ τούτων διανοηθῶμεν οὑτωσί. θαῦμα μὲν
ἕκαστον ἡμῶν ἡγησώμεθα τῶν ζῴων θεῖον, εἴτε ὡς παίγνιον
ἐκείνων εἴτε ὡς σπουδῇ τινι συνεστηκός· οὐ γὰρ δὴ τοῦτό
644e γε γιγνώσκομεν, τόδε δὲ ἴσμεν, ὅτι ταῦτα τὰ πάθη ἐν ἡμῖν
οἷον νεῦρα σμήρινθοί τινες ἐνοῦσαι σπῶσίν τε ἡμᾶς καὶ
ἀλλήλαις ἀνθέλκουσιν ἐναντίαι οὖσαι ἐπ' ἐναντίας πράξεις,
οὗ δὴ διωρισμένη ἀρετὴ καὶ κακία κεῖται. μιᾷ γάρ φησιν
λόγος δεῖν τῶν ἕλξεων συνεπόμενον ἀεὶ καὶ μηδαμῇ ἀπολειπόμενον
ἐκείνης, ἀνθέλκειν τοῖς ἄλλοις νεύροις ἕκαστον, ταύτην
645a δ' εἶναι τὴν τοῦ λογισμοῦ ἀγωγὴν χρυσῆν καὶ ἱεράν, τῆς
πόλεως κοινὸν νόμον ἐπικαλουμένην, ἄλλας δὲ σκληρὰς καὶ
σιδηρᾶς, τὴν δὲ μαλακὴν ἅτε χρυσῆν οὖσαν, τὰς δὲ ἄλλας
παντοδαποῖς εἴδεσιν ὁμοίας. δεῖν δὴ τῇ καλλίστῃ ἀγωγῇ
τῇ τοῦ νόμου ἀεὶ συλλαμβάνειν· ἅτε γὰρ τοῦ λογισμοῦ καλοῦ
μὲν ὄντος, πρᾴου δὲ καὶ οὐ βιαίου, δεῖσθαι ὑπηρετῶν αὐτοῦ τὴν
ἀγωγήν, ὅπως ἂν ἐν ἡμῖν τὸ χρυσοῦν γένος νικᾷ τὰ ἄλλα
645b γένη. καὶ οὕτω δὴ περὶ θαυμάτων ὡς ὄντων ἡμῶν μῦθος
ἀρετῆς σεσωμένος ἂν εἴη, καὶ τὸ κρείττω ἑαυτοῦ καὶ ἥττω
εἶναι τρόπον τινὰ φανερὸν ἂν γίγνοιτο μᾶλλον νοεῖ, καὶ
ὅτι πόλιν καὶ ἰδιώτην, τὸν μὲν λόγον ἀληθῆ λαβόντα ἐν
ἑαυτῷ περὶ τῶν ἕλξεων τούτων, τούτῳ ἑπόμενον δεῖ ζῆν,
πόλιν δὲ παρὰ θεῶν τινος παρὰ τούτου τοῦ γνόντος
ταῦτα λόγον παραλαβοῦσαν, νόμον θεμένην, αὑτῇ τε ὁμιλεῖν
καὶ ταῖς ἄλλαις πόλεσιν. οὕτω καὶ κακία δὴ καὶ ἀρετὴ
645c σαφέστερον ἡμῖν διηρθρωμένον ἂν εἴη· ἐναργεστέρου δ'
αὐτοῦ γενομένου καὶ παιδεία καὶ τἆλλα ἐπιτηδεύματα ἴσως
ἔσται μᾶλλον καταφανῆ, καὶ δὴ καὶ τὸ περὶ τῆς ἐν τοῖς οἴνοις
διατριβῆς, δοξασθείη μὲν ἂν εἶναι φαύλου πέρι μῆκος πολὺ
λόγων περιττὸν εἰρημένον, φανείη δὲ τάχ' ἂν ἴσως τοῦ μήκους
γ' αὐτῶν οὐκ ἀπάξιον.
Ath.Let us conceive of the matter in this way. Let us suppose that each of us living creatures is an ingenious puppet of the gods, whether contrived by way of a toy of theirs or for some serious purpose—for as to that we know nothing; but this we do know, that these inward affections of ours, like sinews or cords, drag us along and, being opposed to each other, pull one against the other to opposite actions; and herein lies the dividing line between goodness and badness.

For, as our argument declares, there is one of these pulling forces which every man should always follow and nohow leave hold of, counteracting thereby the pull of the other sinews: it is the leading-string, golden and holy, of calculation, entitled the public law of the State; and whereas the other cords are hard and steely and of every possible shape and semblance, this one is flexible and uniform, since it is of gold. With that most excellent leading-string of the law we must needs co-operate always; for since calculation is excellent, but gentle rather than forceful, its leading-string needs helpers to ensure that the golden kind within us may vanquish the other kinds. In this way our story comparing ourselves to puppets will not fall flat, and the meaning of the terms self-superior and self-inferior will become somewhat more clear, and also how necessary it is for the individual man to grasp the true account of these inward pulling forces and to live in accordance therewith, and how necessary for the State (when it has received such an account either from a god or from a man who knows) to make this into a law for itself and be guided thereby in its intercourse both with itself and with all other States. Thus both badness and goodness would be differentiated for us more clearly; and these having become more evident, probably education also and the other institutions will appear less obscure; and about the institution of the wine-party in particular it may very likely be shown that it is by no means, as might be thought, a paltry matter which it is absurd to discuss at great length but rather a matter which folly merits prolonged discussion.

ΚΛ.Εὖ λέγεις, καὶ περαίνωμεν ὅτιπερ ἂν τῆς γε νῦν
διατριβῆς ἄξιον γίγνηται.
Clin.Quite right: let us go through with every topic that seems important for the present discussion.
645d ΑΘ.Λέγε δή· προσφέροντες τῷ θαύματι τούτῳ τὴν μέθην,
ποῖόν τί ποτε αὐτὸ ἀπεργαζόμεθα;
Ath.Tell me now: if we give strong drink to this puppet of ours, what effect will it have on its character?
ΚΛ.Πρὸς τί δὲ σκοπούμενος αὐτὸ ἐπανερωτᾷς;
Clin.In reference to what particular do you ask this question?
ΑΘ.Οὐδέν πω πρὸς ὅτι, τοῦτο δὲ ὅλως κοινωνῆσαν τούτῳ
ποῖόν τι συμπίπτει γίγνεσθαι. ἔτι δὲ σαφέστερον βούλομαι
πειράσομαι φράζειν. ἐρωτῶ γὰρ τὸ τοιόνδε· ἆρα σφοδροτέρας
τὰς ἡδονὰς καὶ λύπας καὶ θυμοὺς καὶ ἔρωτας τῶν
οἴνων πόσις ἐπιτείνει;
Ath.To no particular, for the moment: I am putting the question in general terms—when this shares in that, what sort of thing does it become in consequence? I will try to convey my meaning still more clearly: what I ask is this—does the drinking of wine intensify pleasures and pains and passions and lusts?
ΚΛ.Πολύ γε.
Clin.Yes, greatly.
645e ΑΘ.Τί δ' αὖ τὰς αἰσθήσεις καὶ μνήμας καὶ δόξας καὶ φρονήσεις;
πότερον ὡσαύτως σφοδροτέρας; πάμπαν ἀπολείπει
ταῦτα αὐτόν, ἂν κατακορής τις τῇ μέθῃ γίγνηται;
Ath.And how about sensations and recollections and opinions and thoughts? Does it make them likewise more intense? Or rather, do not these quit a man entirely if he becomes surfeited with drink?
ΚΛ.Ναί, πάμπαν ἀπολείπει.
Clin.Yes, they quit him entirely.
ΑΘ.Οὐκοῦν εἰς ταὐτὸν ἀφικνεῖται τὴν τῆς ψυχῆς ἕξιν τῇ
τότε ὅτε νέος ἦν παῖς;
Ath.He then arrives at the same condition of soul as when he was a young child?
ΚΛ.Τί μήν;
Clin.He does.
ΑΘ.Ἥκιστα δὴ τότ' ἂν αὐτὸς αὑτοῦ γίγνοιτο ἐγκρατής.
Ath.So at that moment he will have very little control of himself?
646a ΚΛ.Ἥκιστα.
Clin.Very little.
ΑΘ.Ἆρ' οὖν πονηρότατος, φαμέν, τοιοῦτος;
Ath.And such a man is, we say, very bad?
ΚΛ.Πολύ γε.
Clin.Very, indeed.
ΑΘ.Οὐ μόνον ἄρ', ὡς ἔοικεν, γέρων δὶς παῖς γίγνοιτ'
ἄν, ἀλλὰ καὶ μεθυσθείς.
Ath.It appears, then, that not the grey-beard only may be in his second childhood, but the drunkard as well.
ΚΛ.Ἄριστα εἶπες, ξένε.
Clin.An admirable observation, Stranger.
ΑΘ.Τούτου δὴ τοῦ ἐπιτηδεύματος ἔσθ' ὅστις λόγος ἐπιχειρήσει
πείθειν ἡμᾶς ὡς χρὴ γεύεσθαι καὶ μὴ φεύγειν παντὶ
σθένει κατὰ τὸ δυνατόν;
Ath.Is there any argument which will undertake to persuade us that this is a practice we ought to indulge in, instead of shunning it with all our might so far as we possibly can?
ΚΛ.Ἔοικ' εἶναι· σὺ γοῦν φῂς καὶ ἕτοιμος ἦσθα νυνδὴ
λέγειν.
Clin.It appears that there is: at any rate you assert this, and you were ready just now to argue it.
646b ΑΘ.Ἀληθῆ μέντοι μνημονεύεις· καὶ νῦν γ' εἴμ'
ἕτοιμος, ἐπειδήπερ σφώ γε ἐθελήσειν προθύμως ἔφατον
ἀκούειν.
Ath.You are right in your reminder, and I am still ready to do so, now that you and Megillus have both expressed your willingness to listen to me.
ΚΛ.Πῶς δ' οὐκ ἀκουσόμεθα; κἂν εἰ μηδενὸς ἄλλου
χάριν, ἀλλὰ τοῦ θαυμαστοῦ τε καὶ ἀτόπου, εἰ δεῖ ἑκόντα
ποτὲ ἄνθρωπον εἰς ἅπασαν φαυλότητα ἑαυτὸν ἐμβάλλειν.
Clin.Of course we shall listen, if only on account of the surprising paradox that, of his own free will, a man ought to plunge into the depths of depravity.
ΑΘ.Ψυχῆς λέγεις· γάρ;
Ath.Depravity of soul, you mean, do you not?
ΚΛ.Ναί.
Clin.Yes.
ΑΘ.Τί δέ; σώματος, ἑταῖρε, εἰς πονηρίαν, λεπτότητά
τε καὶ αἶσχος καὶ ἀδυναμίαν, θαυμάζοιμεν ἂν εἴ ποτέ τις
646c ἑκὼν ἐπὶ τὸ τοιοῦτον ἀφικνεῖται;
Ath.And how about plunging into a bad state of body, such as leanness or ugliness or impotence? Should we be surprised if a man of his own free will ever got into such a state?
ΚΛ.Πῶς γὰρ οὔ;
Clin.Of course we should.
ΑΘ.Τί οὖν; τοὺς εἰς τὰ ἰατρεῖα αὐτοὺς βαδίζοντας ἐπὶ
φαρμακοποσίᾳ ἀγνοεῖν οἰόμεθα ὅτι μετ' ὀλίγον ὕστερον καὶ
ἐπὶ πολλὰς ἡμέρας ἕξουσιν τοιοῦτον τὸ σῶμα, οἷον εἰ διὰ
τέλους ἔχειν μέλλοιεν, ζῆν οὐκ ἂν δέξαιντο; τοὺς ἐπὶ τὰ
γυμνάσια καὶ πόνους ἰόντας οὐκ ἴσμεν ὡς ἀσθενεῖς εἰς τὸ
παραχρῆμα γίγνονται;
Ath.Well then, do we suppose that persons who go of themselves to dispensaries to drink medicines are not aware that soon afterwards, and for many days to come, they will find themselves in a bodily condition such as would make life intolerable if it were to last for ever? And we know, do we not, that men who go to the gymnasia for hard training commence by becoming weaker?
ΚΛ.Πάντα ταῦτα ἴσμεν.
Clin.All this we know.
ΑΘ.Καὶ ὅτι τῆς μετὰ ταῦτα ὠφελίας ἕνεκα ἑκόντες
πορεύονται;
Ath.We know also that they go there voluntarily for the sake of the subsequent benefit ?
646d ΚΛ.Κάλλιστα.
Clin.Quite true.
ΑΘ.Οὐκοῦν χρὴ καὶ τῶν ἄλλων ἐπιτηδευμάτων πέρι
διανοεῖσθαι τὸν αὐτὸν τρόπον;
Ath.Should one not take the same view of the other institutions also?
ΚΛ.Πάνυ γε.
Clin.Certainly.
ΑΘ.Καὶ τῆς περὶ τὸν οἶνον ἄρα διατριβῆς ὡσαύτως
διανοητέον, εἴπερ ἔνι τοῦτο ἐν τούτοις ὀρθῶς διανοηθῆναι.
Ath.Then one must also take the same view of the practice of wine-drinking, if one can rightly class it amongst the others.
ΚΛ.Πῶς δ' οὔ;
Clin.Of course one must.
ΑΘ.Ἂν ἄρα τινὰ ἡμῖν ὠφελίαν ἔχουσα φαίνηται μηδὲν
τῆς περὶ τὸ σῶμα ἐλάττω, τῇ γε ἀρχῇ τὴν σωμασκίαν νικᾷ
τῷ τὴν μὲν μετ' ἀλγηδόνων εἶναι, τὴν δὲ μή.
Ath.If then this practice should be shown to be quite as beneficial for us as bodily training, certainly at the outset it is superior to it, in so far as it is not, like bodily training, accompanied by pain.
646e ΚΛ.Ὀρθῶς λέγεις, θαυμάζοιμι δ' ἂν εἴ τι δυναίμεθα
τοιοῦτον ἐν αὐτῷ καταμαθεῖν.
Clin.That is true; but I should be surprised if we succeeded in discovering in it any benefit.
ΑΘ.Τοῦτ' αὐτὸ δὴ νῦν, ὡς ἔοιχ', ἡμῖν ἤδη πειρατέον
φράζειν. καί μοι λέγε· δύο φόβων εἴδη σχεδὸν ἐναντία
δυνάμεθα κατανοῆσαι;
Ath.That is precisely the point which we must at once try to make plain. Tell me now: can we discern two kinds of fear, of which the one is nearly the opposite of the other?
ΚΛ.Ποῖα δή;
Clin.What kinds do you mean?
ΑΘ.Τὰ τοιάδε· φοβούμεθα μέν που τὰ κακά, προςδοκῶντες
γενήσεσθαι.
Ath.These: when we expect evils to occur, we fear them.
ΚΛ.Ναί.
Clin.Yes.
ΑΘ.Φοβούμεθα δέ γε πολλάκις δόξαν, ἡγούμενοι δοξάζεσθαι
κακοί, πράττοντες λέγοντές τι τῶν μὴ καλῶν· ὃν
647a δὴ καὶ καλοῦμεν τὸν φόβον ἡμεῖς γε, οἶμαι δὲ καὶ πάντες,
αἰσχύνην.
Ath.And often we fear reputation, when we think we shall gain a bad repute for doing or saying something base; and this fear we (like everybody else, I imagine) call shame.
ΚΛ.Τί δ' οὔ;
Clin.Of course.
ΑΘ.Τούτους δὴ δύο ἔλεγον φόβους· ὧν ἕτερος ἐναντίος
μὲν ταῖς ἀλγηδόσιν καὶ τοῖς ἄλλοις φόβοις, ἐναντίος
δ' ἐστὶ ταῖς πλείσταις καὶ μεγίσταις ἡδοναῖς.
Ath.These are the two fears I was meaning; and of these the second is opposed to pains and to all other objects of fear, and opposed also to the greatest and most numerous pleasures.
ΚΛ.Ὀρθότατα λέγεις.
Clin.Very true.
ΑΘ.Ἆρ' οὖν οὐ καὶ νομοθέτης, καὶ πᾶς οὗ καὶ σμικρὸν
ὄφελος, τοῦτον τὸν φόβον ἐν τιμῇ μεγίστῃ σέβει, καὶ καλῶν
αἰδῶ, τὸ τούτῳ θάρρος ἐναντίον ἀναίδειάν τε προσαγορεύει
647b καὶ μέγιστον κακὸν ἰδίᾳ τε καὶ δημοσίᾳ πᾶσι νενόμικεν;
Ath.Does not, then, the lawgiver, and every man who is worth anything, hold this kind of fear in the highest honor, and name it modesty; and to the confidence which is opposed to it does he not give the name immodesty, and pronounce it to be for all, both publicly and privately, a very great evil?
ΚΛ.Ὀρθῶς λέγεις.
Clin.Quite right.
ΑΘ.Οὐκοῦν τά τ' ἄλλα πολλὰ καὶ μεγάλα φόβος ἡμᾶς
οὗτος σῴζει, καὶ τὴν ἐν τῷ πολέμῳ νίκην καὶ σωτηρίαν ἓν
πρὸς ἓν οὐδὲν οὕτως σφόδρα ἡμῖν ἀπεργάζεται; δύο γὰρ οὖν
ἐστὸν τὰ τὴν νίκην ἀπεργαζόμενα, θάρρος μὲν πολεμίων,
φίλων δὲ φόβος αἰσχύνης πέρι κακῆς.
Ath.And does not this fear, besides saving us in many other important respects, prove more effective than anything else in ensuring for us victory in war and security? For victory is, in fact, ensured by two things, of which the one is confidence towards enemies, the other, fear of the shame of cowardice in the eyes of friends.
ΚΛ.Ἔστι ταῦτα.
Clin.That is so.
ΑΘ.Ἄφοβον ἡμῶν ἄρα δεῖ γίγνεσθαι καὶ φοβερὸν
647c ἕκαστον· ὧν δ' ἑκάτερον ἕνεκα, διῃρήμεθα.
Ath.Thus each one of us ought to become both fearless and fearful; and that for the several reasons we have now explained.
ΚΛ.Πάνυ μὲν οὖν.
Clin.Certainly.
ΑΘ.Καὶ μὴν ἄφοβόν γε ἕκαστον βουληθέντες ποιεῖν
φόβων πολλῶν τινων, εἰς φόβον ἄγοντες αὐτὸν μετὰ νόμου,
τοιοῦτον ἀπεργαζόμεθα.
Ath.Moreover, when we desire to make a person fearless in respect of a number of fears, it is by drawing him, with the help of the law, into fear that we make him such.
ΚΛ.Φαινόμεθα.
Clin.Apparently.
ΑΘ.Τί δ' ὅταν ἐπιχειρῶμέν τινα φοβερὸν ποιεῖν μετὰ
δίκης; ἆρ' οὐκ ἀναισχυντίᾳ συμβάλλοντας αὐτὸν καὶ προςγυμνάζοντας
νικᾶν δεῖ ποιεῖν διαμαχόμενον αὑτοῦ ταῖς
ἡδοναῖς; τῇ μὲν δειλίᾳ τῇ ἐν αὑτῷ προσμαχόμενον καὶ
647d νικῶντα αὐτὴν δεῖ τέλεον οὕτω γίγνεσθαι πρὸς ἀνδρείαν,
ἄπειρος δὲ δήπου καὶ ἀγύμναστος ὢν τῶν τοιούτων ἀγώνων
ὁστισοῦν οὐδ' ἂν ἥμισυς ἑαυτοῦ γένοιτο πρὸς ἀρετήν, σώφρων
δὲ ἄρα τελέως ἔσται μὴ πολλαῖς ἡδοναῖς καὶ ἐπιθυμίαις προτρεπούσαις
ἀναισχυντεῖν καὶ ἀδικεῖν διαμεμαχημένος καὶ
νενικηκὼς μετὰ λόγου καὶ ἔργου καὶ τέχνης ἔν τε παιδιαῖς
καὶ ἐν σπουδαῖς, ἀλλ' ἀπαθὴς ὢν πάντων τῶν τοιούτων;
Ath.And how about the opposite case, when we attempt with the aid of justice to make a man fearful? Is it not by pitting him against shamelessness and exercising him against it that we must make him victorious in the fight against his own pleasures? Or shall we say that, whereas in the case of courage it is only by fighting and conquering his innate cowardice that a man can become perfect, and no one unversed and unpracticed in contests of this sort can attain even half the excellence of which he is capable,—in the case of temperance, on the other hand, a man may attain perfection without a stubborn fight against hordes of pleasures and lusts which entice towards shamelessness and wrong-doing, and without conquering them by the aid of speech and act and skill, alike in play and at work,—and, in fact, without undergoing any of these experiences?
ΚΛ.Οὔκουν τόν γ' εἰκότα λόγον ἂν ἔχοι.
Clin.It would not be reasonable to suppose so.
647e ΑΘ.Τί οὖν; φόβου φάρμακον ἔσθ' ὅστις θεὸς ἔδωκεν
ἀνθρώποις, ὥστε ὁπόσῳ πλέον ἂν ἐθέλῃ τις πίνειν αὐτοῦ,
τοσούτῳ μᾶλλον αὐτὸν νομίζειν καθ' ἑκάστην πόσιν δυστυχῆ
γίγνεσθαι, καὶ φοβεῖσθαι τὰ παρόντα καὶ τὰ μέλλοντα αὑτῷ
648a πάντα, καὶ τελευτῶντα εἰς πᾶν δέος ἰέναι τὸν ἀνδρειότατον
ἀνθρώπων, ἐκκοιμηθέντα δὲ καὶ τοῦ πώματος ἀπαλλαγέντα
πάλιν ἑκάστοτε τὸν αὐτὸν γίγνεσθαι.
Ath.Well then:

in the case of fear does there exist any specific, given by God to men, such that, the more a man likes to drink of it, the more, at every draught, he fancies himself plunged in misfortune and finally, though he be the bravest of men, he arrives at a state of abject terror; whereas, when he has once got relieved of the potion and slept it off, he always becomes his normal self again?

ΚΛ.Καὶ τί τοιοῦτον φαῖμεν ἄν, ξένε, ἐν ἀνθρώποις
γεγονέναι πῶμα;
Clin.What potion of the kind can we mention, Stranger, as existing anywhere?
ΑΘ.Οὐδέν· εἰ δ' οὖν ἐγένετό ποθεν, ἔσθ' ὅτι πρὸς
ἀνδρείαν ἦν ἂν νομοθέτῃ χρήσιμον; οἷον τὸ τοιόνδε περὶ
αὐτοῦ καὶ μάλα εἴχομεν ἂν αὐτῷ διαλέγεσθαι· Φέρε,
νομοθέτα, εἴτε Κρησὶν εἴθ' οἱστισινοῦν νομοθετεῖς, πρῶτον
648b μὲν τῶν πολιτῶν ἆρ' ἂν δέξαιο βάσανον δυνατὸς εἶναι
λαμβάνειν ἀνδρείας τε πέρι καὶ δειλίας;
Ath.There is none. Supposing, however, that there had been one, would it have been of any service to the lawgiver for promoting courage? For instance, we might quite well have addressed him concerning it in this wise: Come now, O lawgiver,—whether it be Cretans you are legislating for or anyone else, would not your first desire be to have a test of courage and of cowardice which you might apply to your citizens?
ΚΛ.Φαίη που πᾶς ἂν δῆλον ὅτι.
Clin.Obviously everyone of them would say Yes.
ΑΘ.Τί δέ; μετ' ἀσφαλείας καὶ ἄνευ κινδύνων μεγάλων
μετὰ τῶν ἐναντίων;
Ath.And would you desire a test that was safe and free from serious risks, or the reverse?
ΚΛ.Καὶ τοῦτο μετὰ τῆς ἀσφαλείας συνομολογήσει πᾶς.
Clin.All will agree, also, that the test must be safe.
ΑΘ.Χρῷο δ' ἂν εἰς τοὺς φόβους τούτους ἄγων καὶ
ἐλέγχων ἐν τοῖς παθήμασιν, ὥστε ἀναγκάζειν ἄφοβον γίγνεσθαι,
648c παρακελευόμενος καὶ νουθετῶν καὶ τιμῶν, τὸν δὲ
ἀτιμάζων, ὅστις σοι μὴ πείθοιτο εἶναι τοιοῦτος οἷον σὺ
τάττοις ἐν πᾶσιν; καὶ γυμνασάμενον μὲν εὖ καὶ ἀνδρείως
ἀζήμιον ἀπαλλάττοις ἄν, κακῶς δέ, ζημίαν ἐπιτιθείς; τὸ
παράπαν οὐκ ἂν χρῷο, μηδὲν ἄλλο ἐγκαλῶν τῷ πώματι;
Ath.And would you utilize the test by bringing men into these fears and proving them while thus affected, so as to compel them to become fearless; employing exhortations admonitions and rewards,— but degradation for all those that refused to conform wholly to the character you prescribed? And would you acquit without penalty everyone who had trained himself manfully and well, but impose a penalty on everyone who had done so badly? Or would you totally refuse to employ the potion as a test, although you have no objection to it on other grounds?
ΚΛ.Καὶ πῶς οὐκ ἂν χρῷτο, ξένε;
Clin.Of course he would employ it, Stranger.
ΑΘ.Γυμνασία γοῦν, φίλε, παρὰ τὰ νῦν θαυμαστὴ
ῥᾳστώνης ἂν εἴη καθ' ἕνα καὶ κατ' ὀλίγους καὶ καθ' ὁπόσους
648d τις ἀεὶ βούλοιτο· καὶ εἴτε τις ἄρα μόνος ἐν ἐρημίᾳ, τὸ τῆς
αἰσχύνης ἐπίπροσθεν ποιούμενος, πρὶν εὖ σχεῖν ἡγούμενος
ὁρᾶσθαι μὴ δεῖν, οὕτω πρὸς τοὺς φόβους γυμνάζοιτο, πῶμα
μόνον ἀντὶ μυρίων πραγμάτων παρασκευαζόμενος, ὀρθῶς ἄν
τι πράττοι, εἴτε τις ἑαυτῷ πιστεύων φύσει καὶ μελέτῃ καλῶς
παρεσκευάσθαι, μηδὲν ὀκνοῖ μετὰ συμποτῶν πλειόνων γυμναζόμενος
ἐπιδείκνυσθαι τὴν ἐν τῇ τοῦ πώματος ἀναγκαίᾳ
648e διαφορᾷ δύναμιν ὑπερθέων καὶ κρατῶν, ὥστε ὑπ' ἀσχημοσύνης
μηδὲ ἓν σφάλλεσθαι μέγα μηδ' ἀλλοιοῦσθαι δι'
ἀρετήν, πρὸς δὲ τὴν ἐσχάτην πόσιν ἀπαλλάττοιτο πρὶν
ἀφικνεῖσθαι, τὴν πάντων ἧτταν φοβούμενος ἀνθρώπων τοῦ
πώματος.
Ath.At any rate, my friend, the training involved would be wonderfully simple, as compared with our present methods, whether it were applied to individuals singly, or to small groups, or to groups ever so large. Suppose, then, that a man, actuated by a feeling of shame and loth to show himself in public before he was in the best of condition, should remain alone by himself while undergoing this training against fears and relying on the potion alone for his solitary equipment, instead of endless exercises,—he would be acting quite rightly: so too would he who, trusting in himself that by nature and practice he is already well equipped, should have no hesitation in training in company with a number of drinking companions and showing off how for speed and strength he is superior to the potency of the draughts he is obliged to drink, with the result that because of his excellence he neither commits any grave impropriety nor loses his head, and who, before they came to the last round, should quit the company, through fear of the defeat inflicted on all men by the wine-cup.
ΚΛ.Ναί· σωφρονοῖ γὰρ <ἄν>, ξένε, καὶ τοιοῦτος
οὕτω πράττων.
Clin.Yes, Stranger, this man too would be acting temperately.
649a ΑΘ.Πάλιν δὴ πρὸς τὸν νομοθέτην λέγωμεν τάδε· Εἶεν,
νομοθέτα, τοῦ μὲν δὴ φόβου σχεδὸν οὔτε θεὸς ἔδωκεν
ἀνθρώποις τοιοῦτον φάρμακον οὔτε αὐτοὶ μεμηχανήμεθα
τοὺς γὰρ γόητας οὐκ ἐν θοίνῃ λέγωτῆς δὲ ἀφοβίας καὶ
τοῦ λίαν θαρρεῖν καὶ ἀκαίρως μὴ χρή, πότερον ἔστιν
πῶμα, πῶς λέγομεν;
Ath.Once more let us address the lawgiver and say: Be it so, O lawgiver, that for producing fear no such drug apparently has been given to men by God, nor have we devised such ourselves (for quacks I count not of our company); but does there exist a potion for inducing fearlessness and excessive and untimely confidence,—of what shall we say about this?
ΚΛ.Ἔστιν, φήσει που, τὸν οἶνον φράζων.
Clin.Presumably, he will assert that there is one,—naming wine.
ΑΘ. καὶ τοὐναντίον ἔχει τοῦτο τῷ νυνδὴ λεγομένῳ;
πιόντα τὸν ἄνθρωπον αὐτὸν αὑτοῦ ποιεῖ πρῶτον ἵλεων εὐθὺς
649b μᾶλλον πρότερον, καὶ ὁπόσῳ ἂν πλέον αὐτοῦ γεύηται,
τοσούτῳ πλειόνων ἐλπίδων ἀγαθῶν πληροῦσθαι καὶ δυνάμεως
εἰς δόξαν; καὶ τελευτῶν δὴ πάσης τοιοῦτος παρρησίας
ὡς σοφὸς ὢν μεστοῦται καὶ ἐλευθερίας, πάσης δὲ ἀφοβίας,
ὥστε εἰπεῖν τε ἀόκνως ὁτιοῦν, ὡσαύτως δὲ καὶ πρᾶξαι; πᾶς
ἡμῖν, οἶμαι, ταῦτ' ἂν συγχωροῖ.
Ath.And is not this exactly the opposite of the potion described just now? For, first, it makes the person who drinks it more jovial than he was before, and the more he imbibes it, the more he becomes filled with high hopes and a sense of power, till finally, puffed up with conceit, he abounds in every kind of licence of speech and action and every kind of audacity, without a scruple as to what he says or what he does. Everyone, I imagine, would agree that this is so.
ΚΛ.Τί μήν;
Clin.Undoubtedly.
ΑΘ.Ἀναμνησθῶμεν δὴ τόδε, ὅτι δύ' ἔφαμεν ἡμῶν ἐν
ταῖς ψυχαῖς δεῖν θεραπεύεσθαι, τὸ μὲν ὅπως ὅτι μάλιστα
649c θαρρήσομεν, τὸ δὲ τοὐναντίον ὅτι μάλιστα φοβησόμεθα.
Ath.Let us recall our previous statement that we must cultivate in our souls two things—namely, the greatest possible confidence, and its opposite, the greatest possible fear.
ΚΛ. τῆς αἰδοῦς ἔλεγες, ὡς οἰόμεθα.
Clin.Which you called, I think, the marks of modesty.
ΑΘ.Καλῶς μνημονεύετε. ἐπειδὴ δὲ τήν τε ἀνδρείαν
καὶ τὴν ἀφοβίαν ἐν τοῖς φόβοις δεῖ καταμελετᾶσθαι, σκεπτέον
ἆρα τὸ ἐναντίον ἐν τοῖς ἐναντίοις θεραπεύεσθαι δέον
ἂν εἴη.
Ath.Your memory serves you well. Since courage and fearlessness ought to be practised amidst fears, we have to consider whether the opposite quality ought to be cultivated amidst conditions of the opposite kind.
ΚΛ.Τό γ' οὖν εἰκός.
Clin.It certainly seems probable.
ΑΘ. παθόντες ἄρα πεφύκαμεν διαφερόντως θαρραλέοι
τ' εἶναι καὶ θρασεῖς, ἐν τούτοις δέον ἄν, ὡς ἔοικ', εἴη τὸ
μελετᾶν ὡς ἥκιστα εἶναι ἀναισχύντους τε καὶ θρασύτητος
649d γέμοντας, φοβεροὺς δὲ εἰς τό τι τολμᾶν ἑκάστοτε λέγειν
πάσχειν καὶ δρᾶν αἰσχρὸν ὁτιοῦν.
Ath.It appears then that we ought to be placed amongst those conditions which naturally tend to make us exceptionally confident and audacious when we are practising how to be as free as possible from shamelessness and excessive audacity, and fearful of ever daring to say or suffer or do anything shameful.
ΚΛ.Ἔοικεν.
Clin.So it appears.
ΑΘ.Οὐκοῦν ταῦτά ἐστι πάντα ἐν οἷς ἐσμὲν τοιοῦτοι,
θυμός, ἔρως, ὕβρις, ἀμαθία, φιλοκέρδεια, δειλία, καὶ ἔτι
τοιάδε, πλοῦτος, κάλλος, ἰσχύς, καὶ πάνθ' ὅσα δι' ἡδονῆς
αὖ μεθύσκοντα παράφρονας ποιεῖ; τούτων δὲ εὐτελῆ τε καὶ
ἀσινεστέραν πρῶτον μὲν πρὸς τὸ λαμβάνειν πεῖραν, εἶτα
εἰς τὸ μελετᾶν, πλὴν τῆς ἐν οἴνῳ βασάνου καὶ παιδιᾶς, τίνα
649e ἔχομεν ἡδονὴν εἰπεῖν ἔμμετρον μᾶλλον, ἂν καὶ ὁπωστιοῦν
μετ' εὐλαβείας γίγνηται; σκοπῶμεν γὰρ δή· δυσκόλου ψυχῆς
καὶ ἀγρίας, ἐξ ἧς ἀδικίαι μυρίαι γίγνονται, πότερον ἰόντα
εἰς τὰ συμβόλαια πεῖραν λαμβάνειν, κινδυνεύοντα περὶ
650a αὐτῶν, σφαλερώτερον, συγγενόμενον μετὰ τῆς τοῦ Διονύσου
θεωρίας; πρὸς τἀφροδίσια ἡττημένης τινὸς ψυχῆς
βάσανον λαμβάνειν, ἐπιτρέποντα αὑτοῦ θυγατέρας τε καὶ
ὑεῖς καὶ γυναῖκας, οὕτως, ἐν τοῖς φιλτάτοις κινδυνεύσαντες,
ἦθος ψυχῆς θεάσασθαι; καὶ μυρία δὴ λέγων οὐκ ἄν τίς ποτε
ἀνύσειεν ὅσῳ διαφέρει τὸ μετὰ παιδιᾶς τὴν ἄλλως ἄνευ
μισθοῦ ζημιώδους θεωρεῖν. καὶ δὴ καὶ τοῦτο μὲν αὐτὸ περί
650b γε τούτων οὔτ' ἂν Κρῆτας οὔτ' ἄλλους ἀνθρώπους οὐδένας
οἰόμεθα ἀμφισβητῆσαι, μὴ οὐ πεῖράν τε ἀλλήλων ἐπιεικῆ
ταύτην εἶναι, τό τε τῆς εὐτελείας καὶ ἀσφαλείας καὶ τάχους
διαφέρειν πρὸς τὰς ἄλλας βασάνους.
Ath.And are not these the conditions in which we are of the character described,—anger, lust, insolence, ignorance, covetousness, and extravagance; and these also,—wealth, beauty, strength, and everything which intoxicates a man with pleasure and turns his head? And for the purpose, first, of providing a cheap and comparatively harmless test of these conditions, and, secondly, of affording practice in them, what more suitable pleasure can we mention than wine, with its playful testing—provided that it is employed at all carefully?

For consider: in the case of a man whose disposition is morose and savage (whence spring numberless iniquities), is it not more dangerous to test him by entering into money transactions with him, at one’s own personal risk, than by associating with him with the help of Dionysus and his festive insight? And when a man is a slave to the pleasures of sex, is it not a more dangerous test to entrust to him one’s own daughters and sons and wife, and thus imperil one’s own nearest and dearest, in order to discover the disposition of his soul? In fact, one might quote innumerable instances in a vain endeavor to show the full superiority of this playful method of inspection which is without either serious consequence or costly damage. Indeed, so far as that is concerned, neither the Cretans, I imagine, nor any other people would dispute the fact that herein we have a fair test of man by man, and that for cheapness, security and speed it is superior to all other tests.

ΚΛ.Ἀληθὲς τοῦτό γε.
Clin.That certainly is true.
ΑΘ.Τοῦτο μὲν ἄρ' ἂν τῶν χρησιμωτάτων ἓν εἴη, τὸ
γνῶναι τὰς φύσεις τε καὶ ἕξεις τῶν ψυχῶν, τῇ τέχνῃ ἐκείνῃ
ἧς ἐστιν ταῦτα θεραπεύειν· ἔστιν δέ που, φαμέν, ὡς οἶμαι,
πολιτικῆς. γάρ;
Ath.This then—the discovery of the natures and conditions of men’s souls—will prove one of the things most useful to that art whose task it is to treat them; and that art is (as I presume we say) the art of politics: is it not so?
ΚΛ.Πάνυ μὲν οὖν.
Clin.Undoubtedly.