Burnet (OCT, 1903) · Fowler (1926)
Fowler (1926)
363a ΕΥ.Σὺ δὲ δὴ τί σιγᾷς, ὦ Σώκρατες, Ἱππίου τοσαῦτα
ἐπιδειξαμένου, καὶ οὐχὶ ἢ συνεπαινεῖς τι τῶν εἰρημένων ἢ
καὶ ἐλέγχεις, εἴ τί σοι μὴ καλῶς δοκεῖ εἰρηκέναι; ἄλλως τε
ἐπειδὴ καὶ αὐτοὶ λελείμμεθα, οἳ μάλιστ' ἂν ἀντιποιησαίμεθα
μετεῖναι ἡμῖν τῆς ἐν φιλοσοφίᾳ διατριβῆς.
Eud.Why, then, are you silent, Socrates, when Hippias has been delivering such a fine display? Why do you not join us in praising some part of his speech, or else, if he seems to you to have been wrong in any point, refute him—especially now that we who might best claim to have a share in philosophical discussion have been left to ourselves?
ΣΩ.Καὶ μήν, ὦ Εὔδικε, ἔστι γε ἃ ἡδέως ἂν πυθοίμην
363b Ἱππίου ὧν νυνδὴ ἔλεγεν περὶ Ὁμήρου. καὶ γὰρ τοῦ σοῦ
πατρὸς Ἀπημάντου ἤκουον ὅτι ἡ Ἰλιὰς κάλλιον εἴη ποίημα
τῷ Ὁμήρῳ ἢ ἡ Ὀδύσσεια, τοσούτῳ δὲ κάλλιον, ὅσῳ ἀμείνων
Ἀχιλλεὺς Ὀδυσσέως εἴη· ἑκάτερον γὰρ τούτων τὸ μὲν
εἰς Ὀδυσσέα ἔφη πεποιῆσθαι, τὸ δ' εἰς Ἀχιλλέα. περὶ
ἐκείνου οὖν ἡδέως ἄν, εἰ βουλομένῳ ἐστὶν Ἱππίᾳ, ἀναπυθοίμην
ὅπως αὐτῷ δοκεῖ περὶ τοῖν ἀνδροῖν τούτοιν, πότερον
363c ἀμείνω φησὶν εἶναι, ἐπειδὴ καὶ ἄλλα πολλὰ καὶ παντοδαπὰ
ἡμῖν ἐπιδέδεικται καὶ περὶ ποιητῶν τε ἄλλων καὶ περὶ
Ὁμήρου.
Soc.Indeed, Eudicus, there are some points in what Hippias was just now saying of Homer, about which I should like to question him. For I used to hear your father Apemantus say that Homer’s Iliad was a finer poem than the Odyssey, and just as much finer as Achilles was finer than Odysseus for he said that one of these poems was made with Odysseus; the other with Achilles as its subject. So that is a point about which, if it is agreeable to Hippias, I should like to ask—what he thinks about these two men, which of them he says is the better; for he has told us in his exhibition many other things of sorts about Homer and other poets.
ΕΥ.Ἀλλὰ δῆλον ὅτι οὐ φθονήσει Ἱππίας, ἐάν τι αὐτὸν
ἐρωτᾷς, ἀποκρίνεσθαι. ἦ γάρ, ὦ Ἱππία, ἐάν τι ἐρωτᾷ σε
Σωκράτης, ἀποκρινῇ; ἢ πῶς ποιήσεις;
Eud.It is plain enough that Hippias will not object answering if you ask him a question. Oh, Hippias, if Socrates asks you a question, will you answer? or what will you do?
ΙΠ.Καὶ γὰρ ἂν δεινὰ ποιοίην, ὦ Εὔδικε, εἰ Ὀλυμπίαζε
μὲν εἰς τὴν τῶν Ἑλλήνων πανήγυριν, ὅταν τὰ Ὀλύμπια ᾖ,
363d ἀεὶ ἐπανιὼν οἴκοθεν ἐξ Ἤλιδος εἰς τὸ ἱερὸν παρέχω ἐμαυτὸν
καὶ λέγοντα ὅτι ἄν τις βούληται ὧν ἄν μοι εἰς ἐπίδειξιν
παρεσκευασμένον ᾖ, καὶ ἀποκρινόμενον τῷ βουλομένῳ ὅτι
ἄν τις ἐρωτᾷ, νῦν δὲ τὴν Σωκράτους ἐρώτησιν φύγοιμι.
Hipp.Why, Eudicus, it would be strange conduct on my part, if I, who always go up to Olympia to the festival of the Greeks from my home at Elis, and entering the sacred precinct, offer to speak on anything that anyone chooses of those subjects which I prepared for exhibition, and to answer any questions that anyone asks—should now avoid being questioned by Socrates.
364a ΣΩ.Μακάριόν γε, ὦ Ἱππία, πάθος πέπονθας, εἰ ἑκάστης
Ὀλυμπιάδος οὕτως εὔελπις ὢν περὶ τῆς ψυχῆς εἰς σοφίαν
ἀφικνῇ εἰς τὸ ἱερόν· καὶ θαυμάσαιμ' ἂν εἴ τις τῶν περὶ τὸ
σῶμα ἀθλητῶν οὕτως ἀφόβως τε καὶ πιστευτικῶς ἔχων τῷ
σώματι ἔρχεται αὐτόσε ἀγωνιούμενος, ὥσπερ σὺ φῂς τῇ
διανοίᾳ.
Soc.You are in a state of blessedness, Hippias, if at every Olympiad you come to the sanctuary with fair hopes concerning your soul and its wisdom; and I should be surprised if any of the physical athletes when he goes to that same place to take part in the contests, has such fearless confidence in his body as you have in your intellect.
ΙΠ.Εἰκότως, ὦ Σώκρατες, ἐγὼ τοῦτο πέπονθα· ἐξ οὗ
γὰρ ἦργμαι Ὀλυμπίασιν ἀγωνίζεσθαι, οὐδενὶ πώποτε κρείττονι
εἰς οὐδὲν ἐμαυτοῦ ἐνέτυχον.
Hipp.Naturally, Socrates, I am in this state: for since I began to contend at the Olympic games, I never yet met anyone better than myself in anything.
364b ΣΩ.Καλόν γε λέγεις, ὦ Ἱππία, καὶ τῇ Ἠλείων πόλει
τῆς σοφίας ἀνάθημα τὴν δόξαν εἶναι τὴν σὴν καὶ τοῖς
γονεῦσι τοῖς σοῖς. ἀτὰρ τί δὴ λέγεις ἡμῖν περὶ τοῦ Ἀχιλλέως
τε καὶ τοῦ Ὀδυσσέως; πότερον ἀμείνω καὶ κατὰ τί
φῂς εἶναι; ἡνίκα μὲν γὰρ πολλοὶ ἔνδον ἦμεν καὶ σὺ τὴν
ἐπίδειξιν ἐποιοῦ, ἀπελείφθην σου τῶν λεγομένων—ὤκνουν
γὰρ ἐπανερέσθαι, διότι ὄχλος τε πολὺς ἔνδον ἦν, καὶ μή
σοι ἐμποδὼν εἴην ἐρωτῶν τῇ ἐπιδείξει—νυνὶ δὲ ἐπειδὴ ἐλάττους
τέ ἐσμεν καὶ Εὔδικος ὅδε κελεύει ἐρέσθαι, εἰπέ τε καὶ
364c δίδαξον ἡμᾶς σαφῶς, τί ἔλεγες περὶ τούτοιν τοῖν ἀνδροῖν;
πῶς διέκρινες αὐτούς;
Soc.That is splendid, Hippias! Your reputation will be a monument of wisdom for the city of Elis and your parents. But now what do you say about Achilles and Odysseus? Which do you say is the better and in what respect? For when there were many of us in the room, and you were making your exhibition, I could not keep up with what you were saying: for I hesitated to ask questions, because there was a great crowd in the room, also for fear of hindering your exhibition by doing so; but now, since we are fewer and Eudicus here urges me to question you, speak and tell us clearly what you said about these two men; how did you distinguish them?
ΙΠ.Ἀλλ' ἐγώ σοι, ὦ Σώκρατες, ἐθέλω ἔτι σαφέστερον
ἢ τότε διελθεῖν ἃ λέγω καὶ περὶ τούτων καὶ ἄλλων. φημὶ
γὰρ Ὅμηρον πεποιηκέναι ἄριστον μὲν ἄνδρα Ἀχιλλέα τῶν
εἰς Τροίαν ἀφικομένων, σοφώτατον δὲ Νέστορα, πολυτροπώτατον
δὲ Ὀδυσσέα.
Hipp.Why I am glad, Socrates, to explain to you still more clearly what I say about these and others also. For I say that Homer made Achilles the bravest man of those who went to Troy, and Nestor the wisest, and Odysseus the wiliest.
ΣΩ.Βαβαῖ, ὦ Ἱππία· ἆρ' ἄν τί μοι χαρίσαιο τοιόνδε,
μή μου καταγελᾶν, ἐὰν μόγις μανθάνω τὰ λεγόμενα καὶ
364d πολλάκις ἀνερωτῶ; ἀλλά μοι πειρῶ πρᾴως τε καὶ εὐκόλως
ἀποκρίνεσθαι.
Soc.Oh dear, Hippias! Would you do me the favour not to laugh at me if I find it hard to understand what you say, and keep asking questions over and over? Please try to answer me gently and courteously.
ΙΠ.Αἰσχρὸν γὰρ ἂν εἴη, ὦ Σώκρατες, εἰ ἄλλους μὲν
αὐτὰ ταῦτα παιδεύω καὶ ἀξιῶ διὰ ταῦτα χρήματα λαμβάνειν,
αὐτὸς δὲ ὑπὸ σοῦ ἐρωτώμενος μὴ συγγνώμην τ' ἔχοιμι καὶ
πρᾴως ἀποκρινοίμην.
Hipp.Of course; for it would be a disgrace, Socrates, if I, who teach others good manners and charge them money for it, should not myself, when questioned by you, be considerate and reply gently.
ΣΩ.Πάνυ καλῶς λέγεις. ἐγὼ γάρ τοι, ἡνίκα μὲν ἄριστον
τὸν Ἀχιλλέα ἔφησθα πεποιῆσθαι, ἐδόκουν σου μανθάνειν
364e ὅτι ἔλεγες, καὶ ἡνίκα τὸν Νέστορα σοφώτατον· ἐπειδὴ δὲ
τὸν Ὀδυσσέα εἶπες ὅτι πεποιηκὼς εἴη ὁ ποιητὴς πολυτροπώτατον,
τοῦτο δ', ὥς γε πρὸς σὲ τἀληθῆ εἰρῆσθαι, παντάπασιν
οὐκ οἶδ' ὅτι λέγεις. καί μοι εἰπέ, ἄν τι ἐνθένδε
μᾶλλον μάθω· ὁ Ἀχιλλεὺς οὐ πολύτροπος τῷ Ὁμήρῳ
πεποίηται;
Soc.That is excellent. For when you said that the poet made Achilles the bravest of men, and Nestor the wisest, I thought I understood what you meant; but when you said that he made Odysseus the wiliest, to tell you the truth, I do not in the least know what you mean by that. Now tell me, and perhaps it may result in my understanding better. Has not Homer made Achilles wily?
ΙΠ.Ἥκιστά γε, ὦ Σώκρατες, ἀλλ' ἁπλούστατος καὶ
ἀληθέστατος, ἐπεὶ καὶ ἐν Λιταῖς, ἡνίκα πρὸς ἀλλήλους
ποιεῖ αὐτοὺς διαλεγομένους, λέγει αὐτῷ ὁ Ἀχιλλεὺς πρὸς
τὸν Ὀδυσσέα—
365a Διογενὲς Λαερτιάδη, πολυμήχαν' Ὀδυσσεῦ,
χρὴ μὲν δὴ τὸν μῦθον ἀπηλεγέως ἀποειπεῖν,
ὥσπερ δὴ κρανέω τε καὶ ὡς τελέεσθαι ὀίω·
ἐχθρὸς γάρ μοι κεῖνος ὁμῶς Ἀΐδαο πύλῃσιν,
365b ὅς χ' ἕτερον μὲν κεύθῃ ἐνὶ φρεσίν, ἄλλο δὲ εἴπῃ.
αὐτὰρ ἐγὼν ἐρέω, ὡς καὶ τετελεσμένον ἔσται.
ἐν τούτοις δηλοῖ τοῖς ἔπεσιν τὸν τρόπον ἑκατέρου τοῦ ἀνδρός,
ὡς ὁ μὲν Ἀχιλλεὺς εἴη ἀληθής τε καὶ ἁπλοῦς, ὁ δὲ
Ὀδυσσεὺς πολύτροπός τε καὶ ψευδής· ποιεῖ γὰρ τὸν Ἀχιλλέα
εἰς τὸν Ὀδυσσέα λέγοντα ταῦτα τὰ ἔπη.
Hipp.Not at all, Socrates; he made him most simple; for in The Prayers, when he depicts them talking with one another, he makes Achilles say to Odysseus: Zeus-born son of Laertes, wily Odysseus, I must speak out the word without refraining, as I shall act and think will be accomplished and pray do not mutter in discord sitting here beside me. For hateful to me as the gates of Hades is he who hides one thing in his heart and says another. But I shall speak that which shall be accomplished.Hom. Il. 308 ff.In these lines he makes plain the character of each of the men, that Achilles is true and simple, and Odysseus wily and false for he represents Achilles as saying these lines to Odysseus.
ΣΩ.Νῦν ἤδη, ὦ Ἱππία, κινδυνεύω μανθάνειν ὃ λέγεις·
τὸν πολύτροπον ψευδῆ λέγεις, ὥς γε φαίνεται.
Soc.Now at last, Hippias, I think I understand what you mean; you mean that the wily man is false, apparently.
365c ΙΠ.Μάλιστα, ὦ Σώκρατες· τοιοῦτον γὰρ πεποίηκεν τὸν
Ὀδυσσέα Ὅμηρος πολλαχοῦ καὶ ἐν Ἰλιάδι καὶ ἐν Ὀδυσσείᾳ.
Hipp.Certainly, Socrates; for Homer represents Odysseus as that sort of a man in many passages of both Iliad and Odyssey.
ΣΩ.Ἐδόκει ἄρα, ὡς ἔοικεν, Ὁμήρῳ ἕτερος μὲν εἶναι
ἀνὴρ ἀληθής, ἕτερος δὲ ψευδής, ἀλλ' οὐχ ὁ αὐτός.
Soc.Homer, then, as it seems, thought that a true man was one man and a false man another, but not the same.
ΙΠ.Πῶς γὰρ οὐ μέλλει, ὦ Σώκρατες;
Hipp.Of course he did, Socrates.
ΣΩ.Ἦ καὶ σοὶ δοκεῖ αὐτῷ, ὦ Ἱππία;
Soc.And do you think so yourself, Hippias?
ΙΠ.Πάντων μάλιστα· καὶ γὰρ ἂν δεινὸν εἴη εἰ μή.
Hipp.Most assuredly; for it would be strange if I did not.
ΣΩ.Τὸν μὲν Ὅμηρον τοίνυν ἐάσωμεν, ἐπειδὴ καὶ
365d ἀδύνατον ἐπανερέσθαι τί ποτε νοῶν ταῦτα ἐποίησεν τὰ ἔπη·
σὺ δ' ἐπειδὴ φαίνῃ ἀναδεχόμενος τὴν αἰτίαν, καὶ σοὶ συνδοκεῖ
ταῦτα ἅπερ φῂς Ὅμηρον λέγειν, ἀπόκριναι κοινῇ ὑπὲρ
Ὁμήρου τε καὶ σαυτοῦ.
Soc.Then let us drop Homer, since it is impossible to ask him what he meant when he made those verses; but since you come forward to take up his cause, and agree in this which you say is his meaning, do you answer for Homer and yourself in common.
ΙΠ.Ἔσται ταῦτα· ἀλλ' ἐρώτα ἔμβραχυ ὅτι βούλει.
Hipp.Very well; ask briefly whatever you like.
ΣΩ.Τοὺς ψευδεῖς λέγεις οἷον ἀδυνάτους τι ποιεῖν, ὥσπερ
τοὺς κάμνοντας, ἢ δυνατούς τι ποιεῖν;
Soc.Do you say that the false are, like the sick, without power to do anything, or that they have power to do something?
—ΙΠ.Δυνατοὺς ἔγωγε
καὶ μάλα σφόδρα ἄλλα τε πολλὰ καὶ ἐξαπατᾶν ἀνθρώπους.
Hipp.I say that they have great power to do many things, and especially to deceive people.
365e —ΣΩ.Δυνατοὶ μὲν δή, ὡς ἔοικεν, εἰσὶ κατὰ τὸν σὸν λόγον
καὶ πολύτροποι· ἦ γάρ;
Soc.They are, then, powerful, according to you, and wily, are they not?
—ΙΠ.Ναί.
Hipp.Yes.
—ΣΩ.Πολύτροποι δ'
εἰσὶ καὶ ἀπατεῶνες ὑπὸ ἠλιθιότητος καὶ ἀφροσύνης, ἢ ὑπὸ
πανουργίας καὶ φρονήσεώς τινος;
Soc.But are they wily and deceivers by reason of simplicity and folly, or by reason of shrewdness and a sort of intelligence?
—ΙΠ.Ὑπὸ πανουργίας
πάντων μάλιστα καὶ φρονήσεως.
Hipp.By shrewdness, most assuredly, and intelligence.
—ΣΩ.Φρόνιμοι μὲν ἄρα
εἰσίν, ὡς ἔοικεν.
Soc.They are intelligent, then, as it seems.
—ΙΠ.Ναὶ μὰ Δία, λίαν γε.
Hipp.Yes, by Zeus, too much so.
—ΣΩ.Φρόνιμοι
δὲ ὄντες οὐκ ἐπίστανται ὅτι ποιοῦσιν, ἢ ἐπίστανται;
Soc.And being intelligent, do they know what they are doing, or do they not know?
— ΙΠ.Καὶ μάλα σφόδρα ἐπίστανται· διὰ ταῦτα καὶ κακουργοῦσιν.
Hipp.Yes, they know very well; that is why they do harm.
—ΣΩ.Ἐπιστάμενοι δὲ ταῦτα ἃ ἐπίστανται πότερον
ἀμαθεῖς εἰσιν ἢ σοφοί;
Soc.And knowing these things which they know, are they ignorant, or wise?
—ΙΠ.Σοφοὶ μὲν οὖν αὐτά γε ταῦτα,
366a ἐξαπατᾶν.
Hipp.Wise, surely, in just this, deception.
ΣΩ.Ἔχε δή· ἀναμνησθῶμεν τί ἐστιν ὃ λέγεις. τοὺς
ψευδεῖς φῂς εἶναι δυνατοὺς καὶ φρονίμους καὶ ἐπιστήμονας
καὶ σοφοὺς εἰς ἅπερ ψευδεῖς;
Soc.Stop. Let us recall what you say. You say that the false are powerful and intelligent, and knowing and wise in those things in which they are false?
—ΙΠ.Φημὶ γὰρ οὖν.
Hipp.Yes, I do.
— ΣΩ.Ἄλλους δὲ τοὺς ἀληθεῖς τε καὶ ψευδεῖς, καὶ ἐναντιωτάτους
ἀλλήλοις;
Soc.And that the true and the false are different and complete opposites of one another?
—ΙΠ.Λέγω ταῦτα.
Hipp.I do.
—ΣΩ.Φέρε δή· τῶν
μὲν δυνατῶν τινες καὶ σοφῶν, ὡς ἔοικεν, εἰσὶν οἱ ψευδεῖς
κατὰ τὸν σὸν λόγον.
Soc.Well, then, the false are among the powerful and the wise, according to your statement.
—ΙΠ.Μάλιστά γε.
Hipp.Certainly.
—ΣΩ.Ὅταν δὲ
366b λέγῃς δυνατοὺς καὶ σοφοὺς εἶναι τοὺς ψευδεῖς εἰς αὐτὰ
ταῦτα, πότερον λέγεις δυνατοὺς εἶναι ψεύδεσθαι ἐὰν βούλωνται,
ἢ ἀδυνάτους εἰς ταῦτα ἅπερ ψεύδονται;
Soc.And when you say that the false are powerful and wise for falsehood, do you mean that they have power to utter falsehoods if they like, or that they are powerless in respect to the falsehoods which they utter?
—ΙΠ.Δυνατοὺς
ἔγωγε.
Hipp.That they have power.
—ΣΩ.Ὡς ἐν κεφαλαίῳ ἄρα εἰρῆσθαι, οἱ ψευδεῖς
εἰσιν οἱ σοφοί τε καὶ δυνατοὶ ψεύδεσθαι.
Soc.In short, then, the false are those who are wise and powerful in uttering falsehoods.
—ΙΠ.Ναί.
Hipp.Yes.
— ΣΩ.Ἀδύνατος ἄρα ψεύδεσθαι ἀνὴρ καὶ ἀμαθὴς οὐκ ἂν εἴη
ψευδής.
Soc.A man, then, who has not the power to utter falsehoods and is ignorant would not be false.
—ΙΠ.Ἔχει οὕτως.
Hipp.That is true.
—ΣΩ.Δυνατὸς δέ γ' ἐστὶν
ἕκαστος ἄρα, ὃς ἂν ποιῇ τότε ὃ ἂν βούληται, ὅταν βούληται·
366c οὐχ ὑπὸ νόσου λέγω ἐξειργόμενον οὐδὲ τῶν τοιούτων,
ἀλλὰ ὥσπερ σὺ δυνατὸς εἶ γράψαι τοὐμὸν ὄνομα ὅταν
βούλῃ, οὕτω λέγω. ἢ οὐχ, ὃς ἂν οὕτως ἔχῃ, καλεῖς σὺ
δυνατόν;
Soc.Well, but every man has power who does what he wishes at the time when he wishes; I am not speaking of one who is prevented by disease or that sort of thing, but as I might say of you that you have power to write my name when you wish or do you not say that a man has power who is in such a condition?
—ΙΠ.Ναί.
Hipp.Yes, I do.
ΣΩ.Λέγε δή μοι, ὦ Ἱππία, οὐ σὺ μέντοι ἔμπειρος εἶ
λογισμῶν καὶ λογιστικῆς;
Soc.Tell me, then, Hippias, are you not skillful in arithmetical calculations?
—ΙΠ.Πάντων μάλιστα, ὦ Σώκρατες.
Hipp.Most assuredly, Socrates.
—ΣΩ.Οὐκοῦν εἰ καί τίς σε ἔροιτο τὰ τρὶς ἑπτακόσια
ὁπόσος ἐστὶν ἀριθμός, εἰ βούλοιο, πάντων τάχιστα καὶ
366d μάλιστ' ἂν εἴποις τἀληθῆ περὶ τούτου;
Soc.Then if some one were to ask you what the product of three times seven hundred is, you could, if you wished, tell him the truth about that more quickly and better than anyone else?
—ΙΠ.Πάνυ γε.
Hipp.Certainly.
— ΣΩ.Ἆρα ὅτι δυνατώτατός τε εἶ καὶ σοφώτατος κατὰ ταῦτα;
Soc.Because you are the most powerful and wisest of men in these matters?
—ΙΠ.Ναί.
Hipp.Yes.
—ΣΩ.Πότερον οὖν σοφώτατός τε εἶ καὶ δυνατώτατος
μόνον, ἢ καὶ ἄριστος ταῦτα ἅπερ δυνατώτατός τε
καὶ σοφώτατος, τὰ λογιστικά;
Soc.Are you, then, merely wisest and most powerful, or are you also best in those matters in which you are most powerful and wisest, namely calculations?
—ΙΠ.Καὶ ἄριστος δήπου, ὦ
Σώκρατες.
Hipp.Best also, to be sure, Socrates.
—ΣΩ.Τὰ μὲν δὴ ἀληθῆ σὺ ἂν δυνατώτατα εἴποις
366e περὶ τούτων· ἦ γάρ;
Soc.Then you would have the greatest power to tell the truth about these things, would you not?
—ΙΠ.Οἶμαι ἔγωγε.
Hipp.I think so.
—ΣΩ.Τί δὲ τὰ
ψευδῆ περὶ τῶν αὐτῶν τούτων; καί μοι, ὥσπερ τὰ πρότερα,
γενναίως καὶ μεγαλοπρεπῶς ἀπόκριναι, ὦ Ἱππία· εἴ τίς σε
ἔροιτο τὰ τρὶς ἑπτακόσια πόσα ἐστί, πότερον σὺ ἂν μάλιστα
ψεύδοιο καὶ ἀεὶ κατὰ ταὐτὰ ψευδῆ λέγοις περὶ τούτων, βουλόμενος
ψεύδεσθαι καὶ μηδέποτε ἀληθῆ ἀποκρίνεσθαι, ἢ ὁ
367a ἀμαθὴς εἰς λογισμοὺς δύναιτ' ἂν σοῦ μᾶλλον ψεύδεσθαι
βουλομένου; ἢ ὁ μὲν ἀμαθὴς πολλάκις ἂν βουλόμενος ψευδῆ
λέγειν τἀληθῆ ἂν εἴποι ἄκων, εἰ τύχοι, διὰ τὸ μὴ εἰδέναι,
σὺ δὲ ὁ σοφός, εἴπερ βούλοιο ψεύδεσθαι, ἀεὶ ἂν κατὰ τὰ
αὐτὰ ψεύδοιο;
Soc.But what of falsehoods about these same things? And please answer this with the same splendid frankness as my previous questions, Hippias. If some one were to ask you how much three times seven hundred is, would you have the most power to tell falsehoods and always uniformly to say false things about these matters, if you wished to tell falsehoods and never to reply truly; or would he who is ignorant of calculations have more power to tell falsehoods than you, if you wished to do so? Or would the ignorant man often, when he wished to tell falsehoods, involuntarily tell the truth, if it so happened, because he did not know, whereas you, the wise man, if you wished to tell falsehoods, would tell them always and uniformly?
—ΙΠ.Ναί, οὕτως ἔχει ὡς σὺ λέγεις.
Hipp.Yes, it is as you say.
— ΣΩ.Ὁ ψευδὴς οὖν πότερον περὶ μὲν τἆλλα ψευδής ἐστιν,
οὐ μέντοι περὶ ἀριθμόν, οὐδὲ ἀριθμῶν ἂν ψεύσαιτο;
Soc.Is the false man, then, false about other things, but not about number, and would he not tell falsehoods when dealing with number?
— ΙΠ.Καὶ ναὶ μὰ Δία περὶ ἀριθμόν.
Hipp.He is false about number also, by Zeus.
—ΣΩ.Θῶμεν ἄρα καὶ
τοῦτο, ὦ Ἱππία, περὶ λογισμόν τε καὶ ἀριθμὸν εἶναί τινα
367b ἄνθρωπον ψευδῆ;
Soc.Shall we, then, assume this also, that there is such a person as a man who is false about calculation and number?
—ΙΠ.Ναί.
Hipp.Yes.
—ΣΩ.Τίς οὖν ἂν εἴη οὗτος;
οὐχὶ δεῖ ὑπάρχειν αὐτῷ, εἴπερ μέλλει ψευδὴς ἔσεσθαι, ὡς
σὺ ἄρτι ὡμολόγεις, δυνατὸν εἶναι ψεύδεσθαι; ὁ γὰρ ἀδύνατος
ψεύδεσθαι, εἰ μέμνησαι, ὑπὸ σοῦ ἐλέγετο ὅτι οὐκ ἄν
ποτε ψευδὴς γένοιτο.
Soc.Now who would that man be? Must he not, as you just now agreed, have power to tell falsehoods, if he is to be false? For it was said by you, if you recollect, that he who has not the power to tell falsehoods would never be false.
—ΙΠ.Ἀλλὰ μέμνημαι καὶ ἐλέχθη
οὕτως.
Hipp.Yes, I recollect, that was said.
—ΣΩ.Οὐκοῦν ἄρτι ἐφάνης σὺ δυνατώτατος ὢν ψεύδεσθαι
περὶ λογισμῶν;
Soc.And just now you were found to have most power to tell falsehoods about calculations, were you not?
—ΙΠ.Ναί, ἐλέχθη γέ τοι καὶ τοῦτο.
Hipp.Yes, that also was said.
367c —ΣΩ.Ἆρ' οὖν καὶ δυνατώτατος εἶ ἀληθῆ λέγειν περὶ
λογισμῶν;
Soc.Have you, then, also most power to tell the truth about calculations?
—ΙΠ.Πάνυ γε.
Hipp.Certainly.
—ΣΩ.Οὐκοῦν ὁ αὐτὸς ψευδῆ
καὶ ἀληθῆ λέγειν περὶ λογισμῶν δυνατώτατος· οὗτος δ' ἐστὶν
ὁ ἀγαθὸς περὶ τούτων, ὁ λογιστικός.
Soc.Then the same man has most power to speak both falsehood and truth about calculations; and this man is the one who is good in respect to them, namely the calculator.
—ΙΠ.Ναί.
Hipp.Yes.
—ΣΩ.Τίς
οὖν ψευδὴς περὶ λογισμὸν γίγνεται, ὦ Ἱππία, ἄλλος ἢ ὁ
ἀγαθός; ὁ αὐτὸς γὰρ καὶ δυνατός· οὗτος δὲ καὶ ἀληθής.
Soc.Who, then, becomes false in respect to calculation, Hippias, other than the good man? For the same man is also powerful and he is also true.
— ΙΠ.Φαίνεται.
Hipp.So it appears.
—ΣΩ.Ὁρᾷς οὖν ὅτι ὁ αὐτὸς ψευδής τε καὶ
ἀληθὴς περὶ τούτων, καὶ οὐδὲν ἀμείνων ὁ ἀληθὴς τοῦ ψευδοῦς;
367d ὁ αὐτὸς γὰρ δήπου ἐστὶ καὶ οὐκ ἐναντιώτατα ἔχει,
ὥσπερ σὺ ᾤου ἄρτι.
Soc.You see, then, that the same man is both false and true in respect to these matters, and the true is in no wise better than the false? For he is indeed the same man, and the two are not utter opposites, as you thought just now.
ΙΠ.Οὐ φαίνεται ἐνταῦθά γε.
Hipp.Apparently not, at least in this field.
ΣΩ.Βούλει οὖν σκεψώμεθα καὶ ἄλλοθι;
Soc.Shall we, then, investigate elsewhere?
ΙΠ.Εἰ [ἄλλως] γε σὺ βούλει.
Hipp.If you like.
ΣΩ.Οὐκοῦν καὶ γεωμετρίας ἔμπειρος εἶ;
Soc.Well, then, are you expert in geometry also?
—ΙΠ.Ἔγωγε.
Hipp.I am.
—ΣΩ.Τί οὖν; οὐ καὶ ἐν γεωμετρίᾳ οὕτως ἔχει· ὁ αὐτὸς
δυνατώτατος ψεύδεσθαι καὶ ἀληθῆ λέγειν περὶ τῶν διαγραμμάτων,
ὁ γεωμετρικός;
Soc.Well, has not the same man most power to speak falsehood and truth about geometry, namely the geometrician?
—ΙΠ.Ναί.
Hipp.Yes.
—ΣΩ.Περὶ ταῦτα οὖν
367e ἀγαθὸς ἄλλος τις ἢ οὗτος;
Soc.In respect to that, then, is any other good than he?
—ΙΠ.Οὐκ ἄλλος.
Hipp.No, no other.
—ΣΩ.Οὐκοῦν
ὁ ἀγαθὸς καὶ σοφὸς γεωμέτρης δυνατώτατός γε
ἀμφότερα; καὶ εἴπερ τις ἄλλος ψευδὴς περὶ διαγράμματα,
οὗτος ἂν εἴη, ὁ ἀγαθός; οὗτος γὰρ δυνατός, ὁ δὲ κακὸς
ἀδύνατος ἦν ψεύδεσθαι· ὥστε οὐκ ἂν γένοιτο ψευδὴς ὁ
μὴ δυνάμενος ψεύδεσθαι, ὡς ὡμολόγηται.
Soc.The good and wise geometrician, then, has the most power in both respects, has he not? And if anyone is false in respect to diagrams, it would be this man, the good geometrician? For he has the power, and the bad one was powerless, to speak falsehood; so that he who has no power to speak falsehood would not become false, as has been agreed.
—ΙΠ.Ἔστι
ταῦτα.
Hipp.That is true.
ΣΩ.Ἔτι τοίνυν καὶ τὸν τρίτον ἐπισκεψώμεθα, τὸν
ἀστρονόμον, ἧς αὖ σὺ τέχνης ἔτι μᾶλλον ἐπιστήμων οἴει
368a εἶναι ἢ τῶν ἔμπροσθεν. ἦ γάρ, ὦ Ἱππία;
Soc.Let us, then, investigate also the third man, the astronomer, whose art you think you know even better than those of the previous ones; do you not, Hippias?
—ΙΠ.Ναί.
Hipp.Yes.
— ΣΩ.Οὐκοῦν καὶ ἐν ἀστρονομίᾳ ταὐτὰ ταῦτά ἐστιν;
Soc.Are not the same things true in astronomy also?
— ΙΠ.Εἰκός γε, ὦ Σώκρατες.
Hipp.Probably, Socrates.
—ΣΩ.Καὶ ἐν ἀστρονομίᾳ ἄρα
εἴπερ τις καὶ ἄλλος ψευδής, ὁ ἀγαθὸς ἀστρονόμος ψευδὴς
ἔσται, ὁ δυνατὸς ψεύδεσθαι. οὐ γὰρ ὅ γε ἀδύνατος· ἀμαθὴς
γάρ.
Soc.Then in astronomy also, if anyone is false, the good astronomer will be false, he who has power to speak falsehood. For he who has not power will not for he is ignorant.
—ΙΠ.Φαίνεται οὕτως.
Hipp.So it appears.
—ΣΩ.Ὁ αὐτὸς ἄρα καὶ ἐν
ἀστρονομίᾳ ἀληθής τε καὶ ψευδὴς ἔσται.
Soc.The same man, then, in astronomy will be true and false.
—ΙΠ.Ἔοικεν.
Hipp.So it seems.
ΣΩ.Ἴθι δή, ὦ Ἱππία, ἀνέδην οὑτωσὶ ἐπίσκεψαι κατὰ
368b πασῶν τῶν ἐπιστημῶν, εἴ που ἔστιν ἄλλως ἔχον ἢ οὕτως.
πάντως δὲ πλείστας τέχνας πάντων σοφώτατος εἶ ἀνθρώπων,
ὡς ἐγώ ποτέ σου ἤκουον μεγαλαυχουμένου, πολλὴν
σοφίαν καὶ ζηλωτὴν σαυτοῦ διεξιόντος ἐν ἀγορᾷ ἐπὶ ταῖς
τραπέζαις. ἔφησθα δὲ ἀφικέσθαι ποτὲ εἰς Ὀλυμπίαν ἃ
εἶχες περὶ τὸ σῶμα ἅπαντα σαυτοῦ ἔργα ἔχων· πρῶτον
μὲν δακτύλιον—ἐντεῦθεν γὰρ ἤρχου—ὃν εἶχες σαυτοῦ ἔχειν
368c ἔργον, ὡς ἐπιστάμενος δακτυλίους γλύφειν, καὶ ἄλλην
σφραγῖδα σὸν ἔργον, καὶ στλεγγίδα καὶ λήκυθον ἃ αὐτὸς
ἠργάσω· ἔπειτα ὑποδήματα ἃ εἶχες ἔφησθα αὐτὸς σκυτοτομῆσαι,
καὶ τὸ ἱμάτιον ὑφῆναι καὶ τὸν χιτωνίσκον· καὶ ὅ γε
πᾶσιν ἔδοξεν ἀτοπώτατον καὶ σοφίας πλείστης ἐπίδειγμα,
ἐπειδὴ τὴν ζώνην ἔφησθα τοῦ χιτωνίσκου, ἣν εἶχες, εἶναι
μὲν οἷαι αἱ Περσικαὶ τῶν πολυτελῶν, ταύτην δὲ αὐτὸς πλέξαι·
πρὸς δὲ τούτοις ποιήματα ἔχων ἐλθεῖν, καὶ ἔπη καὶ τραγῳδίας
368d καὶ διθυράμβους, καὶ καταλογάδην πολλοὺς λόγους καὶ
παντοδαποὺς συγκειμένους· καὶ περὶ τῶν τεχνῶν δὴ ὧν
ἄρτι ἐγὼ ἔλεγον ἐπιστήμων ἀφικέσθαι διαφερόντως τῶν
ἄλλων, καὶ περὶ ῥυθμῶν καὶ ἁρμονιῶν καὶ γραμμάτων ὀρθότητος,
καὶ ἄλλα ἔτι πρὸς τούτοις πάνυ πολλά, ὡς ἐγὼ δοκῶ
μνημονεύειν· καίτοι τό γε μνημονικὸν ἐπελαθόμην σου, ὡς
ἔοικε, τέχνημα, ἐν ᾧ σὺ οἴει λαμπρότατος εἶναι· οἶμαι δὲ καὶ
368e ἄλλα πάμπολλα ἐπιλελῆσθαι. ἀλλ' ὅπερ ἐγὼ λέγω, καὶ εἰς
τὰς σαυτοῦ τέχνας βλέψας—ἱκαναὶ δέ—καὶ εἰς τὰς τῶν
ἄλλων εἰπέ μοι, ἐάν που εὕρῃς ἐκ τῶν ὡμολογημένων ἐμοί
τε καὶ σοί, ὅπου ἐστὶν ὁ μὲν ἀληθής, ὁ δὲ ψευδής, χωρὶς καὶ
οὐχ ὁ αὐτός; ἐν ᾗτινι βούλει σοφίᾳ τοῦτο σκέψαι ἢ πανουργίᾳ
369a ἢ ὁτιοῦν χαίρεις ὀνομάζων· ἀλλ' οὐχ εὑρήσεις, ὦ ἑταῖρε—
οὐ γὰρ ἔστιν—ἐπεὶ σὺ εἰπέ.
Soc.Come now, Hippias, consider generally in this way concerning all the sciences, whether this is the case, or not. Certainly you are the wisest of men in the greatest number of arts, as I once heard you boast, recounting your great and enviable wisdom in the market-place at the tables of the moneychangers. You said that once, when you went to Olympia, everything you had on your person was your own work; first the ring—for you began with that— which you had was your own work, showing that you knew how to engrave rings, and another seal was your work, and a strigil and an oil-flask were your works; then you said that you yourself had made the sandals you had on, and had woven your cloak and tunic; and, what seemed to every one most unusual and proof of the most wisdom, was when you said that the girdle you wore about your tunic was like the Persian girdles of the costliest kind, and that you had made it yourself. And in addition you said that you brought with you poems, both epics and tragedies and dithyrambs, and many writings of all sorts composed in prose; and that you were there excelling all others in knowledge of the arts of which I was speaking just now, and of the correctness of rhythms and harmonies and letters, and many other things besides, as I seem to remember; and yet I forgot your art of memory, as it seems, in which you think you are most brilliant; and I fancy I have forgotten a great many other things. But, as I say, look both at your own arts—and there are plenty of them—and at those of others, and tell me if you find, in accordance with the agreements you and I have reached, any point where one man is true and another false, where they are separate and not the same. Look for this in any branch whatsoever of wisdom or shrewdness or whatever you choose to call it; but you will not find it, my friend, for it does not exist; just tell me.
ΙΠ.Ἀλλ' οὐκ ἔχω, ὦ Σώκρατες, νῦν γε οὕτως.
Hipp.But I cannot, Socrates, at least, not now offhand.
ΣΩ.Οὐδέ γε ἕξεις, ὡς ἐγὼ οἶμαι· εἰ δ' ἐγὼ ἀληθῆ λέγω,
μέμνησαι ὃ ἡμῖν συμβαίνει ἐκ τοῦ λόγου, ὦ Ἱππία.
Soc.And you never will be able to tell me, I fancy; but if what I say is true, Hippias, you remember what results from our argument.
ΙΠ.Οὐ πάνυ τι ἐννοῶ, ὦ Σώκρατες, ὃ λέγεις.
Hipp.I do not at all understand what you mean, Socrates.
ΣΩ.Νυνὶ γὰρ ἴσως οὐ χρῇ τῷ μνημονικῷ τεχνήματι—
δῆλον γὰρ ὅτι οὐκ οἴει δεῖν—ἀλλὰ ἐγώ σε ὑπομνήσω. οἶσθα
ὅτι τὸν μὲν Ἀχιλλέα ἔφησθα ἀληθῆ εἶναι, τὸν δὲ Ὀδυσσέα
369b ψευδῆ καὶ πολύτροπον;
Soc.No, for perhaps you are not using your art of memory; for you evidently think it is not necessary; but I will remind you. Do you remember that you said that Achilles was true and Odysseus was false and wily?
ΙΠ.Ναί.
Hipp.Yes.
ΣΩ.Νῦν οὖν αἰσθάνῃ ὅτι ἀναπέφανται ὁ αὐτὸς ὢν
ψευδής τε καὶ ἀληθής, ὥστε εἰ ψευδὴς ὁ Ὀδυσσεὺς ἦν, καὶ
ἀληθὴς γίγνεται, καὶ εἰ ἀληθὴς ὁ Ἀχιλλεύς, καὶ ψευδής,
καὶ οὐ διάφοροι ἀλλήλων οἱ ἄνδρες οὐδ' ἐναντίοι, ἀλλ'
ὅμοιοι;
Soc.Do you now, then, perceive that the same man has been found to be false and true, so that if Odysseus was false, he becomes also true, and if Achilles was true, he becomes also false, and the two men are not different from one another, nor opposites, but alike?
ΙΠ.Ὦ Σώκρατες, ἀεὶ σύ τινας τοιούτους πλέκεις λόγους,
καὶ ἀπολαμβάνων ὃ ἂν ᾖ δυσχερέστατον τοῦ λόγου, τούτου
369c ἔχῃ κατὰ σμικρὸν ἐφαπτόμενος, καὶ οὐχ ὅλῳ ἀγωνίζῃ τῷ
πράγματι περὶ ὅτου ἂν ὁ λόγος ᾖ· ἐπεὶ καὶ νῦν, ἐὰν βούλῃ,
ἐπὶ πολλῶν τεκμηρίων ἀποδείξω σοι ἱκανῷ λόγῳ Ὅμηρον
Ἀχιλλέα πεποιηκέναι ἀμείνω Ὀδυσσέως καὶ ἀψευδῆ, τὸν δὲ
δολερόν τε καὶ πολλὰ ψευδόμενον καὶ χείρω Ἀχιλλέως.
εἰ δὲ βούλει, σὺ αὖ ἀντιπαράβαλλε λόγον παρὰ λόγον, ὡς ὁ
ἕτερος ἀμείνων ἐστί· καὶ μᾶλλον εἴσονται οὗτοι ὁπότερος
ἄμεινον λέγει.
Hipp.Socrates, you are always making intricate arguments of this sort, and, picking out the most difficult part of the argument, you stick to it in detail, and you do not discuss the whole subject with which the argument deals; for now, if you like, I will prove to you by satisfactory argument based on many pieces of evidence, that Homer made Achilles better than Odysseus and free from falsehood, and Odysseus crafty and a teller of many falsehoods and inferior to Achilles. And, if you like, do you oppose argument to argument, maintaining that the other is better; and these gentlemen here will determine which of us speaks better.
369d ΣΩ.Ὦ Ἱππία, ἐγώ τοι οὐκ ἀμφισβητῶ μὴ οὐχὶ σὲ εἶναι
σοφώτερον ἢ ἐμέ· ἀλλ' ἀεὶ εἴωθα, ἐπειδάν τις λέγῃ τι,
προσέχειν τὸν νοῦν, ἄλλως τε καὶ ἐπειδάν μοι δοκῇ σοφὸς
εἶναι ὁ λέγων, καὶ ἐπιθυμῶν μαθεῖν ὅτι λέγει διαπυνθάνομαι
καὶ ἐπανασκοπῶ καὶ συμβιβάζω τὰ λεγόμενα, ἵνα μάθω· ἐὰν
δὲ φαῦλος δοκῇ μοι εἶναι ὁ λέγων, οὔτε ἐπανερωτῶ οὔτε
μοι μέλει ὧν λέγει. καὶ γνώσῃ τούτῳ οὓς ἂν ἐγὼ ἡγῶμαι
σοφοὺς εἶναι· εὑρήσεις γάρ με λιπαρῆ ὄντα περὶ τὰ λεγόμενα
369e ὑπὸ τούτου καὶ πυνθανόμενον παρ' αὐτοῦ, ἵνα μαθών
τι ὠφεληθῶ. ἐπεὶ καὶ νῦν ἐννενόηκα σοῦ λέγοντος, ὅτι ἐν
τοῖς ἔπεσιν οἷς σὺ ἄρτι ἔλεγες, ἐνδεικνύμενος τὸν Ἀχιλλέα
εἰς τὸν Ὀδυσσέα λέγειν ὡς ἀλαζόνα ὄντα, ἄτοπόν μοι δοκεῖ
εἶναι, εἰ σὺ ἀληθῆ λέγεις, ὅτι ὁ μὲν Ὀδυσσεὺς οὐδαμοῦ
370a φαίνεται ψευσάμενος, ὁ πολύτροπος, ὁ δὲ Ἀχιλλεὺς πολύτροπός
τις φαίνεται κατὰ τὸν σὸν λόγον· ψεύδεται γοῦν.
προειπὼν γὰρ ταῦτα τὰ ἔπη, ἅπερ καὶ σὺ εἶπες ἄρτι—
ἐχθρὸς γάρ μοι κεῖνος ὁμῶς Ἀίδαο πύλῃσιν,
ὅς χ' ἕτερον μὲν κεύθῃ ἐνὶ φρεσίν, ἄλλο δὲ εἴπῃ,
370b ὀλίγον ὕστερον λέγει ὡς οὔτ' ἂν ἀναπεισθείη ὑπὸ τοῦ
Ὀδυσσέως τε καὶ τοῦ Ἀγαμέμνονος οὔτε μένοι τὸ παράπαν
ἐν τῇ Τροίᾳ, ἀλλ'—
αὔριον ἱρὰ Διὶ ῥέξας, φησί, καὶ πᾶσι θεοῖσιν,
νηήσας εὖ νῆας, ἐπὴν ἅλαδε προερύσσω,
ὄψεαι, αἴ κ' ἐθέλῃσθα καὶ αἴ κέν τοι τὰ μεμήλῃ,
ἦρι μάλ' Ἑλλήσποντον ἐπ' ἰχθυόεντα πλεούσας
370c νῆας ἐμάς, ἐν δ' ἄνδρας ἐρεσσέμεναι μεμαῶτας·
εἰ δέ κεν εὐπλοΐην δώῃ κλυτὸς Ἐννοσίγαιος,
ἤματί κεν τριτάτῳ Φθίην ἐρίβωλον ἱκοίμην.
ἔτι δὲ πρότερον τούτων πρὸς τὸν Ἀγαμέμνονα λοιδορούμενος
εἶπεν—
νῦν δ' εἶμι Φθίηνδ', ἐπεὶ ἦ πολὺ λώϊόν ἐστιν
οἴκαδ' ἴμεν σὺν νηυσὶ κορωνίσιν, οὐδέ σ' ὀίω
370d ἐνθάδ' ἄτιμος ἐὼν ἄφενος καὶ πλοῦτον ἀφύξειν.
ταῦτα εἰπὼν τοτὲ μὲν ἐναντίον τῆς στρατιᾶς ἁπάσης, τοτὲ
δὲ πρὸς τοὺς ἑαυτοῦ ἑταίρους, οὐδαμοῦ φαίνεται οὔτε παρασκευασάμενος
οὔτ' ἐπιχειρήσας καθέλκειν τὰς ναῦς ὡς ἀποπλευσούμενος
οἴκαδε, ἀλλὰ πάνυ γενναίως ὀλιγωρῶν τοῦ
τἀληθῆ λέγειν. ἐγὼ μὲν οὖν, ὦ Ἱππία, καὶ ἐξ ἀρχῆς σε
ἠρόμην ἀπορῶν ὁπότερος τούτοιν τοῖν ἀνδροῖν ἀμείνων
370e πεποίηται τῷ ποιητῇ, καὶ ἡγούμενος ἀμφοτέρω ἀρίστω εἶναι
καὶ δύσκριτον ὁπότερος ἀμείνων εἴη καὶ περὶ ψεύδους καὶ
ἀληθείας καὶ τῆς ἄλλης ἀρετῆς· ἀμφοτέρω γὰρ καὶ κατὰ
τοῦτο παραπλησίω ἐστόν.
Soc.Hippias, I do not doubt that you are wiser than I; but it is always my custom to pay attention when anyone is speaking, especially when the speaker seems to me to be wise; and because I desire to learn what he means, I question him thoroughly and examine and compare the things he says, in order that I may learn. But if the speaker seems to me to be worthless, I neither ask questions nor care what he says. And by this you will recognize whom I regard as wise; for you will find me persistently asking such a man questions about what he says, in order that I may profit by learning something.
And so now I noticed when you were speaking, that in the lines which you repeated just now to show that Achilles speaks to Odysseus as to a deceiver, it seems to me very strange, if what you say is true, that Odysseus the wily is nowhere found to have spoken falsely, but Achilles is found to be a wily sort of person, according to your argument; at any rate, he speaks falsely. For he begins by speaking these lines which you just quoted: For hateful to me as the gates of Hades is he who hides one thing in his heart and says another,Hom. Il. 9.312 ff. and a little later says that he would not be persuaded by Odysseus and Agamemnon and would not stay at Troy at all, but,—Tomorrow, after sacrificing to Zeus and all the gods, (he says), I will load my ships well and drag them into the sea; then you shall see, if you like and if it interests you, early in the morning my ships sailing the fishy Hellespont and my men eagerly rowing in them; and if the glorious Earthshaker should grant me a fair voyage, on the third day I should come to fertile Phthia.Hom. Il. 9.357 ff.And even before that, when he was reviling Agamemnon, he said:And now I shall go to Phthia, since it is far better to go home with my beaked ships, and I do not intend to stay here without honor, and heap up wealth and riches for you.Hom. Il. 1.169 ff.After he has said these things, at one time in the presence of the whole army and at another before his own comrades, he is nowhere found to have either prepared or attempted to drag down his ships to sail home, but he shows quite superb disregard of truthspeaking. Now I, Hippias, asked my question in the first place because I was perplexed as to which of the two men is represented as better by the poet, and because I thought both were very good, and it was hard to decide which was better, both in regard to falsehood and truth and to virtue in general; for both are similar in this matter.
ΙΠ.Οὐ γὰρ καλῶς σκοπεῖς, ὦ Σώκρατες. ἃ μὲν γὰρ ὁ
Ἀχιλλεὺς ψεύδεται, οὐκ ἐξ ἐπιβουλῆς φαίνεται ψευδόμενος
ἀλλ' ἄκων, διὰ τὴν συμφορὰν τὴν τοῦ στρατοπέδου ἀναγκασθεὶς
καταμεῖναι καὶ βοηθῆσαι· ἃ δὲ ὁ Ὀδυσσεύς, ἑκών
τε καὶ ἐξ ἐπιβουλῆς.
Hipp.That is because you do not look at it aright, Socrates. For the falsehoods that Achilles utters, he utters evidently not by design, but against his will, since he is forced by the misfortune of the army to remain and give assistance; but Odysseus utters his falsehoods voluntarily and by design.
ΣΩ.Ἐξαπατᾷς με, ὦ φίλτατε Ἱππία, καὶ αὐτὸς τὸν
Ὀδυσσέα μιμῇ.
Soc.You are deceiving me, beloved Hippias, and are yourself imitating Odysseus.
371a ΙΠ.Οὐδαμῶς, ὦ Σώκρατες· λέγεις δὴ τί καὶ πρὸς τί;
Hipp.Not at all, Socrates. What do you mean and to what do you refer?
ΣΩ.Ὅτι οὐκ ἐξ ἐπιβουλῆς φῂς τὸν Ἀχιλλέα ψεύδεσθαι,
ὃς ἦν οὕτω γόης καὶ ἐπίβουλος πρὸς τῇ ἀλαζονείᾳ,
ὡς πεποίηκεν Ὅμηρος, ὥστε καὶ τοῦ Ὀδυσσέως τοσοῦτον
φαίνεται φρονεῖν πλέον πρὸς τὸ ῥᾳδίως λανθάνειν αὐτὸν
ἀλαζονευόμενος, ὥστε ἐναντίον αὐτοῦ αὐτὸς ἑαυτῷ ἐτόλμα
ἐναντία λέγειν καὶ ἐλάνθανεν τὸν Ὀδυσσέα· οὐδὲν γοῦν
φαίνεται εἰπὼν πρὸς αὐτὸν ὡς αἰσθανόμενος αὐτοῦ ψευδομένου
371b ὁ Ὀδυσσεύς.
Soc.That you say Achilles did not speak falsely by design, he who was not only a deceiver, but was also such a cheat and plotter, as Homer has represented him, that he is seen to be so much more clever than Odysseus in deceiving him unnoticed without difficulty, that he dared to contradict himself in his presence, and Odysseus did not notice it; at any rate Odysseus does not appear to have said anything to him which indicates that he noticed his falsehood.
ΙΠ.Ποῖα δὴ ταῦτα λέγεις, ὦ Σώκρατες;
Hipp.What is this that you say, Socrates?
ΣΩ.Οὐκ οἶσθα ὅτι λέγων ὕστερον ἢ ὡς πρὸς τὸν
Ὀδυσσέα ἔφη ἅμα τῇ ἠοῖ ἀποπλευσεῖσθαι, πρὸς τὸν Αἴαντα
οὐκ αὖ φησιν ἀποπλευσεῖσθαι, ἀλλὰ ἄλλα λέγει;
Soc.Don’t you know that after he said to Odysseus that he was going to sail away at daybreak, in speaking to Ajax he does not repeat that he is going to sail away, but says something different?
ΙΠ.Ποῦ δή;
Hipp.Where, pray?
ΣΩ.Ἐν οἷς λέγει—
οὐ γὰρ πρὶν πολέμοιο μεδήσομαι αἱματόεντος,
371c πρίν γ' υἱὸν Πριάμοιο δαΐφρονος, Ἕκτορα δῖον,
Μυρμιδόνων ἐπί τε κλισίας καὶ νῆας ἱκέσθαι
κτείνοντ' Ἀργείους, κατά τε φλέξαι πυρὶ νῆας·
ἀμφὶ δέ μιν τῇ 'μῇ κλισίῃ καὶ νηῒ μελαίνῃ
Ἕκτορα καὶ μεμαῶτα μάχης σχήσεσθαι ὀίω.
σὺ δὴ οὖν, ὦ Ἱππία, πότερον οὕτως ἐπιλήσμονα οἴει εἶναι
371d τὸν τῆς Θέτιδός τε καὶ ὑπὸ τοῦ σοφωτάτου Χείρωνος πεπαιδευμένον,
ὥστε ὀλίγον πρότερον λοιδοροῦντα τοὺς ἀλαζόνας
τῇ ἐσχάτῃ λοιδορίᾳ αὐτὸν παραχρῆμα πρὸς μὲν τὸν Ὀδυσσέα
φάναι ἀποπλευσεῖσθαι, πρὸς δὲ τὸν Αἴαντα μενεῖν, ἀλλ' οὐκ
ἐπιβουλεύοντά τε καὶ ἡγούμενον ἀρχαῖον εἶναι τὸν Ὀδυσσέα
καὶ αὐτοῦ αὐτῷ τούτῳ τῷ τεχνάζειν τε καὶ ψεύδεσθαι περιέσεσθαι;
Soc.Where he says:For I shall not be mindful of bloody war until warlike Priam’s son, the glorious Hector, shall reach the tents and ships of the Myrmidons through slaughter of Argives and shall burn the ships with fire. But at my tent and my black ship I think Hector, though eager for battle, will come to a halt.Hom. Il. 9.360 ff. Now, Hippias, do you think the son of Thetis and pupil of the most wise Cheiron was so forgetful, that, although a little earlier he had reviled deceivers in the most extreme terms, he himself immediately said to Odysseus that he was going to sail away and to Ajax that he was going to stay, and was not acting by design and in the belief that Odysseus was behind the times and that he himself would get the better of him in just this matter of contrivance and falsehood?
ΙΠ.Οὔκουν ἔμοιγε δοκεῖ, ὦ Σώκρατες· ἀλλὰ καὶ αὐτὰ
371e ταῦτα ὑπὸ εὐνοίας ἀναπεισθεὶς πρὸς τὸν Αἴαντα ἄλλα εἶπεν
ἢ πρὸς τὸν Ὀδυσσέα· ὁ δὲ Ὀδυσσεὺς ἅ τε ἀληθῆ λέγει,
ἐπιβουλεύσας ἀεὶ λέγει, καὶ ὅσα ψεύδεται, ὡσαύτως.
Hipp.No, I do not agree, Socrates; but in this case also Achilles was induced by the goodness of his heart to say to Ajax something different from what he had said to Odysseus; whereas Odysseus, when he speaks the truth always speaks with design, and when he speaks falsehood likewise.
ΣΩ.Ἀμείνων ἄρ' ἐστίν, ὡς ἔοικεν, ὁ Ὀδυσσεὺς Ἀχιλλέως.
Soc.Then Odysseus, as it seems, is better than Achilles.
ΙΠ.Ἥκιστά γε δήπου, ὦ Σώκρατες.
Hipp.Not in the least, Socrates.
ΣΩ.Τί δέ; οὐκ ἄρτι ἐφάνησαν οἱ ἑκόντες ψευδόμενοι
βελτίους ἢ οἱ ἄκοντες;
Soc.How is that? Were not those who utter falsehoods voluntarily found to be better than those who do so involuntarily?
ΙΠ.Καὶ πῶς ἄν, ὦ Σώκρατες, οἱ ἑκόντες ἀδικοῦντες καὶ
372a ἑκόντες ἐπιβουλεύσαντες καὶ κακὰ ἐργασάμενοι βελτίους ἂν
εἶεν τῶν ἀκόντων, οἷς πολλὴ δοκεῖ συγγνώμη εἶναι, ἐὰν μὴ
εἰδώς τις ἀδικήσῃ ἢ ψεύσηται ἢ ἄλλο τι κακὸν ποιήσῃ; καὶ
οἱ νόμοι δήπου πολὺ χαλεπώτεροί εἰσι τοῖς ἑκοῦσι κακὰ
ἐργαζομένοις καὶ ψευδομένοις ἢ τοῖς ἄκουσιν.
Hipp.And how, Socrates, could those who voluntarily do wrong and voluntarily and designedly do harm be better than those who do so involuntarily? And there seems to be good reason to forgive a man who unwittingly does wrong or speaks falsehood or does any other evil. And the laws surely are much more severe towards those who do evil and tell falsehoods voluntarily, than towards those who do so involuntarily.
ΣΩ.Ὁρᾷς, ὦ Ἱππία, ὅτι ἐγὼ ἀληθῆ λέγω, λέγων ὡς
372b λιπαρής εἰμι πρὸς τὰς ἐρωτήσεις τῶν σοφῶν; καὶ κινδυνεύω
ἓν μόνον ἔχειν τοῦτο ἀγαθόν, τἆλλα ἔχων πάνυ φαῦλα·
τῶν μὲν γὰρ πραγμάτων ᾗ ἔχει ἔσφαλμαι, καὶ οὐκ οἶδ' ὅπῃ
ἐστί. τεκμήριον δέ μοι τούτου ἱκανόν, ὅτι ἐπειδὰν συγγένωμαί
τῳ ὑμῶν τῶν εὐδοκιμούντων ἐπὶ σοφίᾳ καὶ οἷς οἱ
Ἕλληνες πάντες μάρτυρές εἰσι τῆς σοφίας, φαίνομαι οὐδὲν
εἰδώς· οὐδὲν γάρ μοι δοκεῖ τῶν αὐτῶν καὶ ὑμῖν, ὡς ἔπος
372c εἰπεῖν. καίτοι τί μεῖζον ἀμαθίας τεκμήριον ἢ ἐπειδάν τις
σοφοῖς ἀνδράσι διαφέρηται; ἓν δὲ τοῦτο θαυμάσιον ἔχω
ἀγαθόν, ὅ με σῴζει· οὐ γὰρ αἰσχύνομαι μανθάνων, ἀλλὰ
πυνθάνομαι καὶ ἐρωτῶ καὶ χάριν πολλὴν ἔχω τῷ ἀποκρινομένῳ,
καὶ οὐδένα πώποτε ἀπεστέρησα χάριτος. οὐ γὰρ πώποτε
ἔξαρνος ἐγενόμην μαθών τι, ἐμαυτοῦ ποιούμενος τὸ
μάθημα εἶναι ὡς εὕρημα· ἀλλ' ἐγκωμιάζω τὸν διδάξαντά με
ὡς σοφὸν ὄντα, ἀποφαίνων ἃ ἔμαθον παρ' αὐτοῦ. καὶ δὴ καὶ
372d νῦν ἃ σὺ λέγεις οὐχ ὁμολογῶ σοι, ἀλλὰ διαφέρομαι πάνυ
σφόδρα· καὶ τοῦτ' εὖ οἶδα ὅτι δι' ἐμὲ γίγνεται, ὅτι τοιοῦτός
εἰμι οἷόσπερ εἰμί, ἵνα μηδὲν ἐμαυτὸν μεῖζον εἴπω. ἐμοὶ
γὰρ φαίνεται, ὦ Ἱππία, πᾶν τοὐναντίον ἢ ὃ σὺ λέγεις· οἱ
βλάπτοντες τοὺς ἀνθρώπους καὶ ἀδικοῦντες καὶ ψευδόμενοι
καὶ ἐξαπατῶντες καὶ ἁμαρτάνοντες ἑκόντες ἀλλὰ μὴ ἄκοντες,
βελτίους εἶναι ἢ οἱ ἄκοντες. ἐνίοτε μέντοι καὶ τοὐναντίον
δοκεῖ μοι τούτων καὶ πλανῶμαι περὶ ταῦτα, δῆλον ὅτι διὰ
372e τὸ μὴ εἰδέναι· νυνὶ δὲ ἐν τῷ παρόντι μοι ὥσπερ κατηβολὴ
περιελήλυθεν, καὶ δοκοῦσί μοι οἱ ἑκόντες ἐξαμαρτάνοντες
περί τι βελτίους εἶναι τῶν ἀκόντω. αἰτιῶμαι δὲ τοῦ νῦν
παρόντος παθήματος τοὺς ἔμπροσθεν λόγους αἰτίους εἶναι,
ὥστε φαίνεσθαι νῦν ἐν τῷ παρόντι τοὺς ἄκοντας τούτων
ἕκαστα ποιοῦντας πονηροτέρους ἢ τοὺς ἑκόντας. σὺ οὖν
χάρισαι καὶ μὴ φθονήσῃς ἰάσασθαι τὴν ψυχήν μου· πολὺ
373a γάρ τοι μεῖζόν με ἀγαθὸν ἐργάσῃ ἀμαθίας παύσας τὴν ψυχὴν
ἢ νόσου τὸ σῶμα. μακρὸν μὲν οὖν λόγον εἰ 'θέλεις λέγειν,
προλέγω σοι ὅτι οὐκ ἄν με ἰάσαιο—οὐ γὰρ ἂν ἀκολουθήσαιμι
—ὥσπερ δὲ ἄρτι εἰ 'θέλεις μοι ἀποκρίνεσθαι, πάνυ ὀνήσεις,
οἶμαι δὲ οὐδ' αὐτὸν σὲ βλαβήσεσθαι. δικαίως δ' ἂν καὶ σὲ
παρακαλοίην, ὦ παῖ Ἀπημάντου· σὺ γάρ με ἐπῆρας Ἱππίᾳ
διαλέγεσθαι, καὶ νῦν, ἐὰν μή μοι ἐθέλῃ Ἱππίας ἀποκρίνεσθαι,
δέου αὐτοῦ ὑπὲρ ἐμοῦ.
Soc.Do you see, Hippias, that I speak the truth when I say that I am persistent in questioning wise men? And this is probably the only good thing about me, as I am otherwise quite worthless; for I am all wrong about facts, and do not know the truth about them. And it is to me sufficient proof of the truth of this, that when I come into contact with one of you who are famous for wisdom, and to whose wisdom all the Greeks bear witness, I am found to know nothing; for there is hardly a single thing about which you and I have the same opinion; and yet what greater proof of ignorance is there than when one disagrees with a wise man? But I have this one remarkable good quality, which is my salvation; for I am not afraid to learn, but I inquire and ask questions and am very grateful to him who answers, and I never failed in gratitude to anyone; for when I have learned anything I have never denied it, pretending that the information was a discovery of my own; but I praise the wisdom of him who instructed me and proclaim what I learned from him. And so now I do not agree with what you say, but disagree very strongly; and I know very well that this is my own fault, because I am the sort of man I am—not to give myself any greater title. For my opinion, Hippias, is the exact opposite of what you say; I think that those who injure people and do wrong and speak falsehood and cheat and err voluntarily, not involuntarily, are better than those who do so involuntarily. Sometimes, however, the opposite of this seems to me to be the case, and I am all astray about these matters, evidently because I am ignorant; but now at the present moment a sort of paroxysm of my disease has come upon me, and those who err in respect to anything voluntarily appear to me better than those who err involuntarily. And I lay the blame for my present condition upon our previous argument, which causes those who do any of these things involuntarily to appear to me at this moment worse than those who do them voluntarily.
So please do me a favour and do not refuse to cure my soul; for you will be doing me much more good if you cure my soul of ignorance, than if you were to cure my body of disease. Now if you choose to deliver a long speech, I tell you beforehand that you would not cure me—for I could not follow you—but if you are willing to answer me, as you did just now, you will do me a great deal of good, and I think you yourself will not be injured, either. And I might fairly call upon you also, son of Apemantus, for help; for you stirred me up to converse with Hippias; so now, if Hippias is unwilling to answer me, ask him in my behalf to do so.
ΕΥ.Ἀλλ', ὦ Σώκρατες, οἶμαι οὐδὲν δεήσεσθαι Ἱππίαν
373b τῆς ἡμετέρας δεήσεως· οὐ γὰρ τοιαῦτα αὐτῷ ἐστι τὰ προειρημένα,
ἀλλ' ὅτι οὐδενὸς ἂν φύγοι ἀνδρὸς ἐρώτησιν. ἦ γάρ,
ὦ Ἱππία; οὐ ταῦτα ἦν ἃ ἔλεγες;
Eud.Well, Socrates, I imagine Hippias will need no asking from us; for that is not what he announced; he announced that he would not avoid the questioning of any man. How is that, Hippias? Is not that what you said?
ΙΠ.Ἔγωγε· ἀλλὰ Σωκράτης, ὦ Εὔδικε, ἀεὶ ταράττει ἐν
τοῖς λόγοις καὶ ἔοικεν ὥσπερ κακουργοῦντι.
Hipp.Yes, I did; but Socrates, Eudicus, always makes confusion in arguments, and seems to want to make trouble.
ΣΩ.Ὦ βέλτιστε Ἱππία, οὔτι ἑκών γε ταῦτα ἐγὼ ποιῶ—
σοφὸς γὰρ ἂν ἦ καὶ δεινὸς κατὰ τὸν σὸν λόγον—ἀλλὰ ἄκων,
ὥστε μοι συγγνώμην ἔχε· φῂς γὰρ αὖ δεῖν, ὃς ἂν κακουργῇ
ἄκων, συγγνώμην ἔχειν.
Soc.Most excellent Hippias, I do not do these voluntarily at all—for then I should be wise and clever, according to you—but involuntarily, so forgive me; for you say, too, that he who does evil involuntarily ought to be forgiven.
373c ΕΥ.Καὶ μηδαμῶς γε, ὦ Ἱππία, ἄλλως ποίει, ἀλλὰ καὶ
ἡμῶν ἕνεκα καὶ τῶν προειρημένων σοι λόγων ἀποκρίνου ἃ ἄν
σε ἐρωτᾷ Σωκράτης.
Eud.And do not refuse, Hippias; but for our sake, and also because of your previous announcements, answer any questions Socrates asks you.
ΙΠ.Ἀλλ' ἀποκρινοῦμαι, σοῦ γε δεομένου. ἀλλ' ἐρώτα
ὅτι βούλει.
Hipp.Well, I will answer since you request it. Ask whatever questions you like.
ΣΩ.Καὶ μὴν σφόδρα γε ἐπιθυμῶ, ὦ Ἱππία, διασκέψασθαι
τὸ νυνδὴ λεγόμενον, πότεροί ποτε ἀμείνους, οἱ ἑκόντες ἢ οἱ
ἄκοντες ἁμαρτάνοντες. οἶμαι οὖν ἐπὶ τὴν σκέψιν ὀρθότατ'
ἂν ὧδε ἐλθεῖν. ἀλλ' ἀπόκριναι· καλεῖς τινα δρομέα ἀγαθόν;
Soc.I certainly have a great desire, Hippias, to investigate what we are just at present talking about, namely which are better, those who err voluntarily or those who err involuntarily. Now I think the best way to go at the investigation is this. Just answer. Do you call some one a good runner?
373d —ΙΠ.Ἔγωγε.
Hipp.I do.
—ΣΩ.Καὶ κακόν;
Soc.And a bad one?
—ΙΠ.Ναί.
Hipp.Yes.
—ΣΩ.Οὐκοῦν
ἀγαθὸς μὲν ὁ εὖ θέων, κακὸς δὲ ὁ κακῶς;
Soc.Now, he who runs well is a good runner, and he who runs badly a bad one; is it not so?
—ΙΠ.Ναί.
Hipp.Yes.
Οὐκοῦν ὁ βραδέως θέων κακῶς θεῖ, ὁ δὲ ταχέως εὖ;
Soc.Then does not he who runs slowly run badly, and he who runs fast run well?
—ΙΠ.Ναί.
Hipp.Yes.
—ΣΩ.Ἐν δρόμῳ μὲν ἄρα καὶ τῷ θεῖν τάχος μὲν ἀγαθόν,
βραδυτὴς δὲ κακόν;
Soc.In a race, then, and in running, rapidity is a good thing, and slowness an evil.
—ΙΠ.Ἀλλὰ τί μέλλει;
Hipp.Why, of course.
—ΣΩ.Πότερος
οὖν ἀμείνων δρομεύς, ὁ ἑκὼν βραδέως θέων ἢ ὁ ἄκων;
Soc.Which, then, is the better runner, he who runs slowly voluntarily or he who does so involuntarily?
— ΙΠ.Ὁ ἑκών.
Hipp.He who does it voluntarily.
—ΣΩ.Ἆρ' οὖν οὐ ποιεῖν τί ἐστι τὸ θεῖν;
Soc.Well, then, is not running doing something?
—ΙΠ.Ποιεῖν μὲν οὖν.
Hipp.Yes, it is doing.
—ΣΩ.Εἰ δὲ ποιεῖν, οὐ καὶ ἐργάζεσθαί
373e τι;
Soc.And if doing, is it not also performing some act?
—ΙΠ.Ναί.
Hipp.Yes.
—ΣΩ.Ὁ κακῶς ἄρα θέων κακὸν καὶ αἰσχρὸν
ἐν δρόμῳ τοῦτο ἐργάζεται;
Soc.Then he who runs badly performs a bad and disgraceful act in a race?
—ΙΠ.Κακόν· πῶς γὰρ οὔ;
Hipp.Yes, a bad act of course.
— ΣΩ.Κακῶς δὲ θεῖ ὁ βραδέως θέων;
Soc.But he runs badly who runs slowly?
—ΙΠ.Ναί.
Hipp.Yes.
Οὐκοῦν ὁ μὲν ἀγαθὸς δρομεὺς ἑκὼν τὸ κακὸν τοῦτο ἐργάζεται
καὶ τὸ αἰσχρόν, ὁ δὲ κακὸς ἄκων;
Soc.Then the good runner performs this bad and disgraceful act voluntarily, and the bad runner involuntarily?
—ΙΠ.Ἔοικέν γε.
Hipp.So it seems.
— ΣΩ.Ἐν δρόμῳ μὲν ἄρα πονηρότερος ὁ ἄκων κακὰ ἐργαζόμενος
374a ἢ ὁ ἑκών;
Soc.In running, then, he who does bad acts involuntarily is worse than he who does them voluntarily?
—ΙΠ.Ἐν δρόμῳ γε.
Hipp.Yes, in running.
—ΣΩ.Τί δ' ἐν πάλῃ;
πότερος παλαιστὴς ἀμείνων, ὁ ἑκὼν πίπτων ἢ ὁ ἄκων;
Soc.And how is it in wrestling? Which is the better wrestler, he who is thrown voluntarily, or involuntarily?
— ΙΠ.Ὁ ἑκών, ὡς ἔοικεν.
Hipp.He who is thrown voluntarily, as it seems.
—ΣΩ.Πονηρότερον δὲ καὶ αἴσχιον
ἐν πάλῃ τὸ πίπτειν ἢ τὸ καταβάλλειν;
Soc.But is it worse and more disgraceful in a wrestling match to be thrown or to throw one’s opponent?
—ΙΠ.Τὸ πίπτειν.
Hipp.To be thrown.
— ΣΩ.Καὶ ἐν πάλῃ ἄρα ὁ ἑκὼν τὰ πονηρὰ καὶ αἰσχρὰ ἐργαζόμενος
βελτίων παλαιστὴς ἢ ὁ ἄκων.
Soc.In wrestling also, then, he who performs bad and disgraceful acts voluntarily is a better wrestler than he who performs them involuntarily.
—ΙΠ.Ἔοικεν.
Hipp.So it seems.
Τί δὲ ἐν τῇ ἄλλῃ πάσῃ τῇ τοῦ σώματος χρείᾳ; οὐχ ὁ βελτίων
τὸ σῶμα δύναται ἀμφότερα ἐργάζεσθαι, καὶ τὰ ἰσχυρὰ καὶ τὰ
374b ἀσθενῆ, καὶ τὰ αἰσχρὰ καὶ τὰ καλά· ὥστε ὅταν κατὰ τὸ σῶμα
πονηρὰ ἐργάζηται, ἑκὼν ἐργάζεται ὁ βελτίων τὸ σῶμα, ὁ δὲ
πονηρότερος ἄκων;
Soc.And how is it in every other bodily exercise? Is not he who is the better man in respect to his body able to perform both kinds of acts, the strong and the weak, the disgraceful and the fine, so that whenever he performs bad acts of a bodily kind, he who is the better man in respect to his body does them voluntarily, but he who is worse does them involuntarily?
—ΙΠ.Ἔοικεν καὶ τὰ κατὰ τὴν ἰσχὺν οὕτως
ἔχειν.
Hipp.That seems to be the case in matters of strength also.
ΣΩ.Τί δὲ κατ' εὐσχημοσύνην, ὦ Ἱππία; οὐ τοῦ βελτίονος
σώματός ἐστιν ἑκόντος τὰ αἰσχρὰ καὶ πονηρὰ σχήματα σχηματίζειν,
τοῦ δὲ πονηροτέρου ἄκοντος; ἢ πῶς σοι δοκεῖ;
Soc.And how about grace, Hippias? Does not the better body take ugly and bad postures voluntarily, and the worse body involuntarily? Or what is your opinion?
— ΙΠ.Οὕτως.
Hipp.That is my opinion.
—ΣΩ.Καὶ ἀσχημοσύνη ἄρα ἡ μὲν ἑκούσιος
374c πρὸς ἀρετῆς ἐστιν, ἡ δὲ ἀκούσιος πρὸς πονηρίας σώματος.
Soc.Then ungracefulness when voluntary is associated with excellence of the body, but when involuntary with faultiness.
—ΙΠ.Φαίνεται.
Hipp.Apparently.
—ΣΩ.Τί δὲ φωνῆς πέρι λέγεις; ποτέραν
φῂς εἶναι βελτίω, τὴν ἑκουσίως ἀπᾴδουσαν ἢ τὴν ἀκουσίως;
Soc.And what do you say about the voice? Which do you say is the better? That which sings out of tune voluntarily, or involuntarily?
—ΙΠ.Τὴν ἑκουσίως.
Hipp.That which does it voluntarily.
—ΣΩ.Μοχθηροτέραν δὲ τὴν ἀκουσίως;
Soc.And that which does it involuntarily is the worse?
—ΙΠ.Ναί.
Hipp.Yes.
—ΣΩ.Δέξαιο δ' ἂν πότερον τἀγαθὰ κεκτῆσθαι
ἢ τὰ κακά;
Soc.Would you choose to possess good or bad things?
—ΙΠ.Τἀγαθά.
Hipp.Good ones.
—ΣΩ.Πότερον οὖν ἂν δέξαιο
πόδας κεκτῆσθαι ἑκουσίως χωλαίνοντας ἢ ἀκουσίως;
Soc.Would you, then, choose to possess feet that limp voluntarily, or involuntarily?
374d — ΙΠ.Ἑκουσίως.
Hipp.Voluntarily.
—ΣΩ.Χωλεία δὲ ποδῶν οὐχὶ πονηρία καὶ
ἀσχημοσύνη ἐστίν;
Soc.But is not a limp faultiness and ungracefulness of the feet?
—ΙΠ.Ναί.
Hipp.Yes.
—ΣΩ.Τί δέ; ἀμβλυωπία
οὐ πονηρία ὀφθαλμῶν;
Soc.Well, is not dimness of sight faultiness of the eyes?
—ΙΠ.Ναί.
Hipp.Yes.
—ΣΩ.Ποτέρους οὖν ἂν
βούλοιο ὀφθαλμοὺς κεκτῆσθαι καὶ ποτέροις συνεῖναι; οἷς
ἑκὼν ἄν τις ἀμβλυώττοι καὶ παρορῴη ἢ οἷς ἄκων;
Soc.Which eyes, then, would you choose to possess and live with? Those with which one would see dimly and incorrectly voluntarily, or involuntarily?
—ΙΠ.Οἷς
ἑκών.
Hipp.Those with which one would do so voluntarily.
—ΣΩ.Βελτίω ἄρα ἥγησαι τῶν σαυτοῦ τὰ ἑκουσίως
πονηρὰ ἐργαζόμενα ἢ τὰ ἀκουσίως;
Soc.Those parts, then, of yourself which voluntarily act badly you consider better than those which do so involuntarily?
—ΙΠ.Τὰ γοῦν τοιαῦτα.
Hipp.Yes; that is, in matters of that sort.
—ΣΩ.Οὐκοῦν πάντα, οἷον καὶ ὦτα καὶ ῥῖνας καὶ στόμα καὶ
πάσας τὰς αἰσθήσεις, εἷς λόγος συνέχει, τὰς μὲν ἀκόντως
374e κακὰ ἐργαζομένας ἀκτήτους εἶναι ὡς πονηρὰς οὔσας, τὰς δὲ
ἑκουσίως κτητὰς ὡς ἀγαθὰς οὔσας.
Soc.Well, then, one statement embraces all alike, such as ears and nose and mouth and all the senses —that those which act badly involuntarily are undesirable because they are bad, and those which do so voluntarily are desirable because they are good.
—ΙΠ.Ἔμοιγε δοκεῖ.
Hipp.I think so.
— ΣΩ.Τί δέ; ὀργάνων ποτέρων βελτίων ἡ κοινωνία, οἷς ἑκών
τις κακὰ ἐργάζεται ἢ οἷς ἄκων; οἷον πηδάλιον ᾧ ἄκων κακῶς
τις κυβερνήσει βέλτιον ἢ ᾧ ἑκών;
Soc.Well now, which instruments are better to have to do with, those with which a man does bad work voluntarily, or involuntarily? For instance, is a rudder better with which a man will involuntarily steer badly, or one with which he will do so voluntarily?
—ΙΠ.Ὧι ἑκών.
Hipp.One with which he will do so voluntarily.
—ΣΩ.Οὐ
καὶ τόξον ὡσαύτως καὶ λύρα καὶ αὐλοὶ καὶ τἆλλα σύμπαντα;
Soc.And is not the same true of a bow and a lyre and flutes and all the rest?
375a —ΙΠ.Ἀληθῆ λέγεις.
Hipp.Quite true.
—ΣΩ.Τί δέ; ψυχὴν κεκτῆσθαι ἵππου,
ᾗ ἑκών τις κακῶς ἱππεύσει, ἄμεινον ἢ <ᾗ> ἄκων;
Soc.Well now, would you choose to possess a horse of such spirit that you would ride him badly voluntarily, or involuntarily?
—ΙΠ.Ἧι
ἑκών.
Hipp.Voluntarily.
—ΣΩ.Ἀμείνων ἄρα ἐστίν.
Soc.Then that spirit is better.
—ΙΠ.Ναί.
Hipp.Yes.
—ΣΩ.Τῇ
ἀμείνονι ἄρα ψυχῇ ἵππου τὰ τῆς ψυχῆς ἔργα ταύτης τὰ
πονηρὰ ἑκουσίως ἂν ποιοῖ, τῇ δὲ τῆς πονηρᾶς ἀκουσίως;
Soc.Then with the horse of better spirit one would do voluntarily the bad acts of that spirit, but with the one of worse spirit involuntarily?
— ΙΠ.Πάνυ γε.
Hipp.Certainly.
—ΣΩ.Οὐκοῦν καὶ κυνὸς καὶ τῶν ἄλλων ζῴων
πάντων;
Soc.And is not that true of a dog, and all other animals?
—ΙΠ.Ναί.
Hipp.Yes.
—ΣΩ.Τί δὲ δή; ἀνθρώπου ψυχὴν
ἐκτῆσθαι τοξότου ἄμεινόν ἐστιν, ἥτις ἑκουσίως ἁμαρτάνει
375b τοῦ σκοποῦ, ἢ ἥτις ἀκουσίως;
Soc.Well now, then, in the case of an archer is it better to possess the mind which voluntarily misses the mark, or that which does so involuntarily?
—ΙΠ.Ἥτις ἑκουσίως.
Hipp.That which does so voluntarily.
Οὐκοῦν καὶ αὕτη ἀμείνων εἰς τοξικήν ἐστιν;
Soc.Then that is the better mind for the purpose of archery?
—ΙΠ.Ναί.
Hipp.Yes.
— ΣΩ.Καὶ ψυχὴ ἄρα ἀκουσίως ἁμαρτάνουσα πονηροτέρα ἢ
ἑκουσίως;
Soc.Is, then, the mind also which errs involuntarily worse than that which errs voluntarily?
—ΙΠ.Ἐν τοξικῇ γε.
Hipp.Yes, in the case of archery.
—ΣΩ.Τί δ' ἐν ἰατρικῇ; οὐχὶ
ἡ ἑκοῦσα κακὰ ἐργαζομένη περὶ τὰ σώματα ἰατρικωτέρα;
Soc.And how is it in the art of medicine? Is not the mind which does harm to the patients’ bodies voluntarily the more scientific?
— ΙΠ.Ναί.
Hipp.Yes.
—ΣΩ.Ἀμείνων ἄρα αὕτη ἐν ταύτῃ τῇ τέχνῃ τῆς
μὴ [ἰατρικῆς].
Soc.In this art, then, this mind is better than the other.
—ΙΠ.Ἀμείνων.
Hipp.It is better.
—ΣΩ.Τί δέ; ἡ κιθαριστικωτέρα
καὶ αὐλητικωτέρα καὶ τἆλλα πάντα τὰ κατὰ τὰς τέχνας
375c τε καὶ τὰς ἐπιστήμας, οὐχὶ ἡ ἀμείνων ἑκοῦσα τὰ κακὰ ἐργάζεται
καὶ τὰ αἰσχρὰ καὶ ἐξαμαρτάνει, ἡ δὲ πονηροτέρα
ἄκουσα;
Soc.Well now, the more musical, whether with lyre or with flute, and in everything else that concerns all the other arts and sciences—is not that mind better which voluntarily does bad and disgraceful things and commits errors, whereas that which does so involuntarily is worse?
—ΙΠ.Φαίνεται.
Hipp.Apparently.
—ΣΩ.Ἀλλὰ μήν που τάς γε τῶν
δούλων ψυχὰς κεκτῆσθαι δεξαίμεθ' ἂν μᾶλλον τὰς ἑκουσίως
ἢ τὰς ἀκουσίως ἁμαρτανούσας τε καὶ κακουργούσας, ὡς
ἀμείνους οὔσας εἰς ταῦτα.
Soc.And surely we should prefer to possess slaves of such minds that they voluntarily commit errors and do mischief, rather than such as do so involuntarily; we should think them better fitted for their duties.
—ΙΠ.Ναί.
Hipp.Yes.
—ΣΩ.Τί δέ; τὴν
ἡμετέραν αὐτῶν οὐ βουλοίμεθ' ἂν ὡς βελτίστην ἐκτῆσθαι;
Soc.Well now, should we not wish to possess our own mind in the best possible condition?
375d — ΙΠ.Ναί.
Hipp.Yes.
—ΣΩ.Οὐκοῦν βελτίων ἔσται, ἐὰν ἑκοῦσα κακουργῇ
τε καὶ ἐξαμαρτάνῃ, ἢ ἐὰν ἄκουσα;
Soc.Will it, then, be better if it does evil and errs voluntarily, or involuntarily?
ΙΠ.Δεινὸν μεντἂν εἴη, ὦ Σώκρατες, εἰ οἱ ἑκόντες
ἀδικοῦντες βελτίους ἔσονται ἢ οἱ ἄκοντες.
Hipp.But it would be a terrible thing, Socrates, if those who do wrong voluntarily are to be better than those who do so involuntarily.
ΣΩ.Ἀλλὰ μὴν φαίνονταί γε ἐκ τῶν εἰρημένων.
Soc.But surely they appear, at least, to be so, from what has been said.
ΙΠ.Οὔκουν ἔμοιγε.
Hipp.Not to me.
ΣΩ.Ἐγὼ δ' ᾤμην, ὦ Ἱππία, καὶ σοὶ φανῆναι. πάλιν δ'
ἀπόκριναι· ἡ δικαιοσύνη οὐχὶ ἢ δύναμίς τίς ἐστιν ἢ ἐπιστήμη
ἢ ἀμφότερα; ἢ οὐκ ἀνάγκη ἕν γέ τι τούτων εἶναι τὴν
375e δικαιοσύνην;
Soc.I thought, Hippias, they appeared to be so to you also. But now once more answer me: Is not justice either a sort of power or knowledge, or both? Or must not justice inevitably be one or other of these?
—ΙΠ.Ναί.
Hipp.Yes.
—ΣΩ.Οὐκοῦν εἰ μὲν δύναμίς ἐστι
τῆς ψυχῆς ἡ δικαιοσύνη, ἡ δυνατωτέρα ψυχὴ δικαιοτέρα
ἐστί; βελτίων γάρ που ἡμῖν ἐφάνη, ὦ ἄριστε, ἡ τοιαύτη.
Soc.Then injustice is a power of the soul, the more powerful soul is the more just, is it not? For we found, my friend, that such a soul was better.
— ΙΠ.Ἐφάνη γάρ.
Hipp.Yes, we did.
—ΣΩ.Τί δ' εἰ ἐπιστήμη; οὐχ ἡ σοφωτέρα
ψυχὴ δικαιοτέρα, ἡ δὲ ἀμαθεστέρα ἀδικωτέρα;
Soc.And what if it be knowledge? Is not the wiser soul more just, and the more ignorant more unjust?
Ναί.>
Hipp.Yes.
—ΣΩ.Τί δ' εἰ ἀμφότερα; οὐχ ἡ ἀμφοτέρας ἔχουσα,
ἐπιστήμην καὶ δύναμιν, δικαιοτέρα, ἡ δ' ἀμαθεστέρα ἀδικωτέρα;
οὐχ οὕτως ἀνάγκη ἔχειν;
Soc.And what if it be both? Is not the soul which has both, power and knowledge, more just, and the more ignorant more unjust? Is that not inevitably the case?
—ΙΠ.Φαίνεται.
Hipp.It appears to be.
Οὐκοῦν ἡ δυνατωτέρα καὶ σοφωτέρα αὕτη ἀμείνων οὖσα
ἐφάνη καὶ ἀμφότερα μᾶλλον δυναμένη ποιεῖν, καὶ τὰ
376a καλὰ καὶ τὰ αἰσχρά, περὶ πᾶσαν ἐργασίαν;
Soc.This more powerful and wiser soul, then, was found to be better and to have more power to do both good and disgraceful acts in every kind of action was it not?
—ΙΠ.Ναί.
Hipp.Yes.
— ΣΩ.Ὅταν ἄρα τὰ αἰσχρὰ ἐργάζηται, ἑκοῦσα ἐργάζεται
διὰ δύναμιν καὶ τέχνην· ταῦτα δὲ δικαιοσύνης φαίνεται, ἤτοι
ἀμφότερα ἢ τὸ ἕτερον.
Soc.Whenever, then, it does disgraceful acts, it does them voluntarily, by reason of power and art; and these, either one or both of them, are attributes of justice.
—ΙΠ.Ἔοικεν.
Hipp.So it seems.
—ΣΩ.Καὶ τὸ μέν γε
ἀδικεῖν κακὰ ποιεῖν ἐστιν, τὸ δὲ μὴ ἀδικεῖν καλά.
Soc.And doing injustice is doing evil acts, and not doing injustice is doing good acts.
—ΙΠ.Ναί.
Hipp.Yes.
—ΣΩ.Οὐκοῦν ἡ δυνατωτέρα καὶ ἀμείνων ψυχή, ὅτανπερ
ἀδικῇ, ἑκοῦσα ἀδικήσει, ἡ δὲ πονηρὰ ἄκουσα;
Soc.Will not, then, the more powerful and better soul, when it does injustice, do it voluntarily, and the bad soul involuntarily?
—ΙΠ.Φαίνεται.
Hipp.Apparently.
376b —ΣΩ.Οὐκοῦν ἀγαθὸς ἀνὴρ ὁ τὴν ἀγαθὴν ψυχὴν ἔχων, κακὸς
δὲ ὁ τὴν κακήν;
Soc.Is not, then, a good man he who has a good soul, and a bad man he who has a bad one?
—ΙΠ.Ναί.
Hipp.Yes.
—ΣΩ.Ἀγαθοῦ μὲν ἄρα ἀνδρός
ἐστιν ἑκόντα ἀδικεῖν, κακοῦ δὲ ἄκοντα, εἴπερ ὁ ἀγαθὸς ἀγαθὴν
ψυχὴν ἔχει.
Soc.It is, then, in the nature of the good man to do injustice voluntarily, and of the bad man to do it involuntarily, that is, if the good man has a good soul.
—ΙΠ.Ἀλλὰ μὴν ἔχει γε.
Hipp.But surely he has.
—ΣΩ.Ὁ ἄρα ἑκὼν
ἁμαρτάνων καὶ αἰσχρὰ καὶ ἄδικα ποιῶν, ὦ Ἱππία, εἴπερ τίς
ἐστιν οὗτος, οὐκ ἂν ἄλλος εἴη ἢ ὁ ἀγαθός.
Soc.Then he who voluntarily errs and does disgraceful and unjust acts, Hippias, if there be such a man, would be no other than the good man.
ΙΠ.Οὐκ ἔχω ὅπως σοι συγχωρήσω, ὦ Σώκρατες, ταῦτα.
Hipp.I cannot agree with you, Socrates, in that.
ΣΩ.Οὐδὲ γὰρ ἐγὼ ἐμοί, ὦ Ἱππία· ἀλλ' ἀναγκαῖον οὕτω
376c φαίνεσθαι νῦν γε ἡμῖν ἐκ τοῦ λόγου. ὅπερ μέντοι πάλαι
ἔλεγον, ἐγὼ περὶ ταῦτα ἄνω καὶ κάτω πλανῶμαι καὶ οὐδέποτε
ταὐτά μοι δοκεῖ. καὶ ἐμὲ μὲν οὐδὲν θαυμαστὸν πλανᾶσθαι
οὐδὲ ἄλλον ἰδιώτην· εἰ δὲ καὶ ὑμεῖς πλανήσεσθε οἱ σοφοί,
τοῦτο ἤδη καὶ ἡμῖν δεινὸν εἰ μηδὲ παρ' ὑμᾶς ἀφικόμενοι
παυσόμεθα τῆς πλάνης.
Soc.Nor I with myself, Hippias; but that appears at the moment to be the inevitable result of our argument; however, as I was saying all along, in respect to these matters I go astray, up and down, and never hold the same opinion; and that I, or any other ordinary man, go astray is not surprising; but if you wise men likewise go astray, that is a terrible thing for us also, if even when we have come to you we are not to cease from our straying.